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S.J. posted:Yeah having extra toughness makes sense it just interacts weirdly with how the other characters are already tanking a lot of ranged fire which can make it feel like the Vet just ends up having more toughness to rumble in melee and it being somewhat irrelevant for the ranged game veteran has 200 toughness base, everyone else has 100 Sharkopath posted:No, it's 100% Toughness, not 100 numerical toughness. The second vet gets hits once they take scaling melee damage the same as everybody else. i must be getting it confused with the launch bug where any number over 100 toughness gave you negative damage reduction then. i feel like my point that "the veteran needs more toughness because they take more ranged fire than everyone standing in front of them who are supposed to be closing to melee" doesn't make a lick of sense still stands.
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Dec 18, 2022 04:48
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Internet Explorer posted:Are you sure this is true? This would make any toughness above 100 worse than 100 toughness. Because the scale goes from 100 reduction to 0, having more toughness means you have slightly longer before you reach no protection at all. Of course as the difficulties go up and enemy damage goes up, the protection toughness gives to melee damage goes down way precipitously, until the difference hardly matters at all between 100, 150, and 200. It still remains an important part of veterans ability to stand up to heavy gunner and ranged fire though, where the damage reduction is 100% until toughness is gone.
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Dec 18, 2022 04:51
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The higher base toughness also makes all +% toughness curios much stronger for the vet. I've been slow to get to higher levels because I'm basically playing all of the classes somewhat equally (all 20+ but level 15 Ogryn atm) but the more I play the more pronounced the power disparity between vets and the other classes gets. I just did a mission with my psycher and, aside from some horde clearing with voidstrike, I may as well not have been there.
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Dec 18, 2022 04:54
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Higher total toughness is much more effective against ranged damage than melee - losing any amount opens you to chip melee damage. And Zealot and Ogryn are theoretically more capable of regenerating toughness in melee so that's where they come into their own. This kinda falls apart where the Power Sword comes into play, but that's not toughness' problem.
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Dec 18, 2022 04:58
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drat Dirty Ape posted:The higher base toughness also makes all +% toughness curios much stronger for the vet. Honestly despite the loss of instant kill in t4 I think psyker still has a good niche for itself, the ability to just grab most things and pop it while behind cover is still a cool useful trick that comes in handy, and with your ult the ability to just consecutively pop ogryn heads makes a big difference in a way that any vet without a plasma gun cant quite do. Force sword is fun as hell and the most useful of all the elite killer "stuck-in" type weapons because of the slight knockback aoe, and the voidstrike despite having middling damage I'd still say is the absolute best ranged weapon in the game, because it doesn't matter if it doesnt kill elites in one hit when it can stunlock them until they die. Its subtraits like maintaining warp charges to get a tiny damage bonus aren't even worth maintaining, and its talents are pretty weak choices across the board, and I'm still eagerly awaiting buffs to the other staffs, a rework of its talent tree, and also give me the psycannon for good measure. I like vet but genuinely I have more fun playing psyker most of the time, I like the maintenance of peril gameplay and the special tricks you can do. Sharkopath fucked around with this message at 05:05 on Dec 18, 2022 |
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Dec 18, 2022 05:01
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On both Zealot and Psyker I feel like I’m just caddying for the Vets; they do everything important while I run around pointing at ammo and cleaning up stray trash (just to keep myself entertained, of course; they all have power swords so they’re better than me at melee and ranged and surviving and supporting the team and probably dancing and lacrosse, too)
megane fucked around with this message at 05:12 on Dec 18, 2022 |
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Dec 18, 2022 05:07
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The vet needs you to stand next to him so he can stand still and have all the enemies target you so he can swing his powersword back.and forth killing everything. Probably just best if you block and dodge. Edit: Also after the nerf the powersword is still strong, probably #1 or 1A melee weapon in the game but it does have some clear downsides. The mobility on it is not great including the dodges and it has a horrible push attack. The vet can easily get overwhelmed and cornered and doesnt have any capability to do anything about it once that happens where as Ogryn & Zealot can charge / become invuln / etc. I think it'd be good if they brought other melee weapons up to the level the powersword is at now. The Thunderhammer charge heavy attack just be like a massive AOE knockback that smites a target in the center imo Jerkface fucked around with this message at 05:12 on Dec 18, 2022 |
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Dec 18, 2022 05:09
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like at the end of the day, the veteran has twice as much toughness as everyone else. you can argue that it's not that big of an advantage, or the most important advantage of the many they have, but it's an advantage the veteran has. just, numerically, if nothing else.
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Dec 18, 2022 05:12
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I'd also accept modified shuriken pistols/catapult/cannons for psyker, thank you fatshark.
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Dec 18, 2022 05:15
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megane posted:On both Zealot and Psyker I feel like I’m just caddying for the Vets; they do everything important while I run around pointing at ammo and cleaning up stray trash (just to keep myself entertained, of course; they all have power swords so they’re better than me at melee and ranged and surviving and supporting the team and probably dancing and lacrosse, too) Honestly voidstrike is so good that I use it as my melee weapon a lot of the time, you can hold back entire hordes in melee range because anything that doesnt get killed by the massive line pierce is now stunned so you have time to quell or charge up another shot as needed. You can obliterate densely packed shooter hordes faster than vet too, it's got a lot going for it.
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Dec 18, 2022 05:17
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So how does this work again? Veteran: Ranged and Melee class. Good at both Ogryn: melee class. Really cool Psyker: makes people's heads hurt Zealot:flamethrower guy. Not as good at melee as veteran or ogryn
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Dec 18, 2022 05:22
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Honestly the Zealot I love and is frustrating because it is so close to being a powerhouse.
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Dec 18, 2022 05:24
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Jarvisi posted:So how does this work again? zealot: melee dps veteran: ranged dps ogryn: tank psyker: crowd control but implementation wise it seems more like veteran: all dps, some tank zealot: melee dps (worse than veteran) ogryn: tank psyker: ranged dps (worse than veteran)
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Dec 18, 2022 05:25
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I'd say nobodys designed to be strictly melee or ranged, the game really relies on the hybrid gameplay. Zealots intention is an offensive all rounder, Veteran is defensive all rounder. Ogryn is a multipurpose support and anchor, Psyker is supposed to be a focused elite killer with some options for focused wave killing. Veteran just edges too far into Psyker's territory for comfort while having a strong melee weapon that makes up for their lack of traits and skills in melee. Psyker's second build as a wave killer is also pretty underwhelming and undertuned while also making their elite killing skills drop off entirely by T4 because of how they don't scale well.
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Dec 18, 2022 05:28
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Would changing powersword moveset to be non-cleave oriented and serve as a single target melee be a good nerf, or two far?
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Dec 18, 2022 05:30
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Dandywalken posted:Would changing powersword moveset to be non-cleave oriented and serve as a single target melee be a good nerf, or two far? the problem there is that weapon already exists for the veteran and it's called the chain axe
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Dec 18, 2022 05:32
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Light attack cleave, heavy stabs or slashing overheads would be nice. I really want to see an overheat mechanic tho Also a skin for the power sword that makes it an officer's sabre. Would go back to it in an instant if they did that
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Dec 18, 2022 05:32
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Dandywalken posted:Would changing powersword moveset to be non-cleave oriented and serve as a single target melee be a good nerf, or two far? I think the bigger issue is that other classes power weapons should be brought in line with its power level. Power sword just stands out because the thunder hammer is so much more limited right now. Even chainsword and axe I think need a good buffing because of how iconic they are to the setting. It's a weird concept for a game to have such different tiers of power but honestly I don't think a base shovel or axe should be strictly equitable to chain and power weapons, but giving them more defined niches and specialty use cases would be nice. The Bolter and Plasma Gun for instance do that pretty well, they're strong, fun, useful, and powerful weapons but have drawbacks that make more general purpose lasguns and autoguns more attractive to many users. Sharkopath fucked around with this message at 05:36 on Dec 18, 2022 |
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Dec 18, 2022 05:33
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Cowcaster posted:if it lasts LONGER against ranged fire why does the veteran need MORE of it than every other class lol Vet takes extra damage when running, dodging and maybe even sliding when zealot takes less or none
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Dec 18, 2022 05:48
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Sharkopath posted:I'd say nobodys designed to be strictly melee or ranged, the game really relies on the hybrid gameplay. look, i get what you're saying is every class/every player needs to be prepared and expected to be able to fight both at range and at melee as the situation warrants, but if you look at the zealot's traits, feats, and ability it's obvious the class is meant to be primarily melee focused and if you look at the veteran's traits, feats and ability it's equally obvious the class is meant to be primarily ranged focused, there's no getting around that.
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Dec 18, 2022 05:48
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field balm posted:Vet takes extra damage when running, dodging and maybe even sliding when zealot takes less or none what, and also why
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Dec 18, 2022 05:51
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It's really just the power sword envy. If th eviscerator was sped up just a bit more or the hammer actually did slightly better damage in wide swings, I'd never take vet or zealot. If you know the level layout, you can get around pretty well without taking ranged fire by sliding and dodging... but if you have a vet on the team, they'll take out whatever's shooting at you before you can get to it. And if you get snagged by a pop in melee spawn, you're pretty much occupied until it's dealt with.
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Dec 18, 2022 05:53
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Cowcaster posted:what, and also why The multipliers for damage sustained at different. Zealout pretty much has huge iframes ( 0 multiplier) while the others have some other fraction.
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Dec 18, 2022 05:54
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Dandywalken posted:Would changing powersword moveset to be non-cleave oriented and serve as a single target melee be a good nerf, or two far? It's three far, stop messing with my beautiful baby!  The cleave nerf was painful enough. Only the Munitorum MK III Power Sword reduces an entire horde into a soup-like homogenate in 30 seconds, and that's the way I likes it.
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Dec 18, 2022 05:57
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ninjoatse.cx posted:The multipliers for damage sustained at different. Zealout pretty much has huge iframes ( 0 multiplier) while the others have some other fraction.
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Dec 18, 2022 05:57
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Cowcaster posted:archetypally it seems like the overall intent is The Ogryn and Psyker imo were intended to be melee and ranged control, Ogryn being a tank isn't really accurate at all, even with the slab shield
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Dec 18, 2022 06:00
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S.J. posted:The Ogryn and Psyker imo were intended to be melee and ranged control, Ogryn being a tank isn't really accurate at all, even with the slab shield what about the extra health, the extra wound, the ability to pick up allies without being interrupted, and the damage reduction to toughness and health, though and again, all the applicable feats Cowcaster fucked around with this message at 06:08 on Dec 18, 2022 |
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Dec 18, 2022 06:01
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All of psykers traits also apply to both their ranged and melee, its very fun to poke somebody once with a sword and have their head explode. Psuker does get a trait to reduce ranged toughness damage which helps support them countershooting too, but maintaining stack is hard and the benefits not as strong as vets.
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Dec 18, 2022 06:03
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Cowcaster posted:what about the extra health, the extra wounds, the ability to pick up allies without being interrupted, and the damage reduction to toughness and health, though Those are decent compensations for being physically larger and therefore automatically taking more incidental damage than everyone else, sure. And certainly there is a tankier build you can build with, IF you can efficiently build bleed stacks, which is fairly gear dependent on being good. Being able to take damage fairly well doesn't mean they're the designated damage taker, seeing as they have no way to actually force the enemy to attack them. Ogryn is my main, there's a lot of situations where you just automatically take way more damage than everyone else even with your bonuses simply because of your size.
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Dec 18, 2022 06:09
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i think you're getting a little too granular on what defines a tank in a videogame
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Dec 18, 2022 06:10
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Cowcaster posted:what about the extra health, the extra wounds, the ability to pick up allies without being interrupted, and the damage reduction to toughness and health, though Ogryn trying to play as a tank quickly melts under ranged fire. Ogryn are best at controlling the horde so everyone can work on the actually dangerous specials and elites. Also people saying Vet is the best melee class is like, I try to play Veteran like I do my Zealot and I just die quickly. The power sword is entirely carrying that class in melee and honestly I'm fine with the power sword being strong because otherwise your all 4 Veteran party will melt when a horde is on top of them. The power sword has the biggest downside in that you swing 3 times and then you have to back off and charge again, which is precious seconds in Heresy+ wasted whereas with my Eviscerator I only need to worry about revving it when there's a chonky enemy in there. If the Vet is engaged in melee then that's an honestly wasted Vet.
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Dec 18, 2022 06:11
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Cowcaster posted:i think you're getting a little too granular on what defines a tank in a videogame I think you're applying an MMO definition to a classes abilities where it doesn't apply. e: Ogryn is fantastic at disrupting the enemy at short range. They have to be able to take damage to do that well, because duh. That doesn't mean they're designated tanks, it means they need those abilities to not just die. The Ogryn can certainly tank in certain situations if they have the build for it, but then, so can the Zealot and so can the Vet
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Dec 18, 2022 06:11
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S.J. posted:I think you're applying an MMO definition to a classes abilities where it doesn't apply you're the one applying mmo definitions my dude i'm saying, in your words, the class where "there's a lot of situations where you just automatically take way more damage than everyone else" is by definition the tank
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Dec 18, 2022 06:13
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Cowcaster posted:you're the one applying mmo definitions my dude i'm saying, in your words, the class where "there's a lot of situations where you just automatically take way more damage than everyone else" is by definition the tank Yeah, because they have a bigger hitbox and because their abilities almost always require them to be close to the enemy, not because they have the ability to magically draw aggro. Come on, stop intentionally misinterpreting me. The Zealot can actually tank in a lot of situations way better than the Ogryn because of their toughness damage reduction feat and their mobility, which requires a lot less effort out of their build, and has the ability to self heal. S.J. fucked around with this message at 06:17 on Dec 18, 2022 |
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Dec 18, 2022 06:14
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tanking as in TAKING damage not AVOIDING it, i don't think we're understanding each other
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Dec 18, 2022 06:17
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Cowcaster posted:tanking as in TAKING damage not AVOIDING it, i don't think we're understanding each other Yeah you don't want to take damage, that's what you're not understanding, and that's why your idea of tanking is wrong
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Dec 18, 2022 06:17
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Cowcaster posted:tanking as in TAKING damage not AVOIDING it, i don't think we're understanding each other Taking damage doesn't mean you're a tank. Ogryn doesn't want to be taking damage too.
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Dec 18, 2022 06:17
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no one wants to take damage! i'm saying the ogryn can take more of it than other classes, that makes them the tank!
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Dec 18, 2022 06:19
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you know, like the armored vehicle that's really hard to defeat, because it can take so much punishment before it's out of commission? is that not what a tank is?
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Dec 18, 2022 06:21
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Cowcaster posted:no one wants to take damage! i'm saying the ogryn can take more of it than other classes, that makes them the tank! No, they can't, their default abilities basically just balance out the incidental damage that other classes automatically get to avoid easier with their smaller hitboxes. There is no tank in this game
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Dec 18, 2022 06:21
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