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there's 2 likely things causing you to see people in lobbies that seem to be way off of their apparent rank: 1) matchmaking speed is prioritized above almost all else or 2) you're seeing boosting or smurfing as it's happening. I'd lean more towards the former because smurfing usually is not that big of a skill swing relative to boosting, whereas with boosting you'll get like actual top 50 players in bronze or silver lobbies, at least for a few games before things start readjusting it's possible that the matchmaking is just completely broken or that weird youtuber theories about the game feeding u games u are meant to lose is happening (lol they've always been saying this and it's never been true beyond people not understanding variance or elo systems), but both of the above are a lot more plausible
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Dec 18, 2022 07:07
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Kabuki Shipoopi posted:I'm really surprised people haven't been sniffing around in the code looking for definitive data on ranking up and down in the matchmaking system. The matchmaking code will be server side, so inaccessible.
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Dec 18, 2022 09:10
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The matchmaker will never be advanced enough to feed you into guaranteed loss or win games, while also doing it for the other 9 players in your lobby. Why do people accept that blizzard is poo poo+can't do anything correctly, then immediately assume they've unlocked the god matchmaker?
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Dec 18, 2022 10:24
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dogstile posted:The matchmaker will never be advanced enough to feed you into guaranteed loss or win games, while also doing it for the other 9 players in your lobby. I don't think anything is guaranteed but I do observe that it's exceptionally common to get a string of many matches back-to-back where there are literal new players, or disabled players, or heavily sedated players on one team, where a staggered Ana will run solo into the enemy team, throw a nade into a shield and then die, where the tank slams DVa and then does nothing but walk at the enemy team, hold DM until it runs out, explode, die, repeat on respawn. Where the comms are non existent or toxic, where any sort of working team comp is a fantasy because people just pick whatever and die over and over and over. Then strings of matches back-to-back where the complete reverse happens and your team feels like a team of footballers kicking toddlers to the opposite end of a field. If this was down to random chance matches wouldn't be distributed the way they are. There is something algorithmic causing this to happen. It's not 100%, no, but it's very, very plain. And I have a feeling that there is something which causes it to happen a lot for some people - such as myself - and not much at all for some people. At a guess it's people who play the game more seriously and in an organised way get pegged to their level a lot more consistently, don't experiment with characters much, have much more consistent team play. The videos I posted above provide a pretty good explanation for what I am seeing. I am not alone in seeing this exact phenomenon - far from it.
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Dec 18, 2022 10:46
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The matchmaker was made for OW1 and seems to have worked perfectly fine there and then they changed the game up and made it a lot more volatile and didn't change the matchmaker to accommodate for it.
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Dec 18, 2022 10:56
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Nah, the ow1 matchmaker was chucked down to something very simple, which was a basic 25 up/down with the occasional couple extra points. People had the very same complaints then. We it's all over the old OW thread (back before the game died and people stopped caring). Unless something more comprehensive than "I lose a bunch of games then I win a bunch of games" (this is normal) happens then I'm not convinced.
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Dec 18, 2022 11:30
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dogstile posted:Nah, the ow1 matchmaker was chucked down to something very simple, which was a basic 25 up/down with the occasional couple extra points. quote:Are you a Platinum-tier player or below? If you performed particularly well or worse than what is considered a typical performance during a match, then there’s a small SR modification to reflect that. Even back in 2018 the game, according to the developers themselves, had performance-based SR adjustments, and I don't see a reason for it to not have gotten more complex since then. Those couple of videos that were discussed earlier seem to point specifically at a performance-based smurf detection system. Plus, they still own that patent (US20160001181A1) for a matchmaking system that would put put bad players into teams that would carry them, for purposes of player retention. I wouldn't be surprised if they finally decided to put that patent into use.
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Dec 18, 2022 11:46
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Jack Trades posted:Plus, they still own that patent (US20160001181A1) for a matchmaking system that would put put bad players into teams that would carry them, for purposes of player retention. I wouldn't be surprised if they finally decided to put that patent into use. Oh, had some good games lately?
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Dec 18, 2022 12:14
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Jack Trades posted:https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/overwatch/t/groups-and-matchmaking-in-overwatch/134776 Very, very small. I've put plenty of accounts through plat since they made that change, i went from getting 25sr a win to... 30. That takes the 20 straight wins you'd require from 2500 to 3000 to like 13 or w/e. That adjustment was back when they were loving with it and before then, you could go up 60-80sr a game by smurfing.
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Dec 18, 2022 12:20
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dogstile posted:Nah, the ow1 matchmaker was chucked down to something very simple, which was a basic 25 up/down with the occasional couple extra points. So, I'd like to know exactly what you're saying - is it that you don't believe that this very clear and distinct pattern of many chained stomp matches in one direction and the other is occurring at all, or that you believe it's occurring but it's just normal matchmaking and to be expected? If the first, well, there's not much I can say to that other than "It is occurring" and if it's the second, can you elaborate on how it's normal for things to work this way? Like do you think that it just happens to be the way that stuff works out randomly? Do you really think that? E: I will add that this is happening against the background of Blizzard deliberately taking away match history (clears every game restart) and obscuring the match scoreboard so you can only see your own stats, and that for a limited window. You'd literally need to be screenshotting every match result to keep a comprehensive record. SadisTech fucked around with this message at 12:36 on Dec 18, 2022 |
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Dec 18, 2022 12:33
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SadisTech posted:So, I'd like to know exactly what you're saying - is it that you don't believe that this very clear and distinct pattern of many chained stomp matches in one direction and the other is occurring at all, or that you believe it's occurring but it's just normal matchmaking and to be expected? Human brain is very good at noticing patterns, both real and imaginary and figuring out reasons for them, again both real and imaginary. This is latter. There's no vast conspiracy of developers coding matchmaking AI to make you lose a lot after bunch of wins. It is normal variance.
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Dec 18, 2022 13:12
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May as well be talking to a brick wall
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Dec 18, 2022 13:51
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the bronzes queueing into GMs is probably the GMs trolling and intentionally downranking on an off-role [or on their main role], but if not then that would be evidence of matchmaking being bugged the performance based sr is purely an anti-smurf measure and you shouldn't worry about it at all ever. if it's like ow1, it isn't used at all past plat.
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Dec 18, 2022 14:17
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I think it's very possible that for whatever reasons everyone's sr got scrambled at that start of the season (I lost almost two full metals when it started for no reason) and the resulting streaks and imbalances are a result of that numerical flattening working itself out. If the skills of your players have been randomized by dropping everyone to a similar rank, well, real randomization causes streaks.
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Dec 18, 2022 14:31
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Scholtz posted:Oh, had some good games lately? lmao stitched up
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Dec 18, 2022 14:43
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SadisTech posted:So, I'd like to know exactly what you're saying - is it that you don't believe that this very clear and distinct pattern of many chained stomp matches in one direction and the other is occurring at all, or that you believe it's occurring but it's just normal matchmaking and to be expected? I think that as the numbers on your account go up, you're going to hit harder opponents and they'll eventually get to the point where you can't beat them. Sometimes this makes people mad, or they play while they're tired, or any other number of reasons and they play badly, so they lose a bunch of games in a row. They'll then be in a far easier elo, as being 200 points down or whatever isn't insignificant. This is why its streaky. For the reason I believe this is the way blizzard does their matchmaking, up until season 21 i kept a spreadsheet of every match I played in a google drive somewhere. It tracked map wins/losses, what modes I was good at, what roles I played and if i was feeling particularly tryhardy, i'd comment on what I thought I was doing wrong. Worth noting that this is back when I was still actively scrimming with tier 2/world cup teams, even if I wasn't good enough to get onto their main rosters, hence the trying hard as gently caress. Everything above plat after that MMR change was straight 25/26 per win/loss until you got to top 500, where it started to go like +20 for a win and -30 for a loss. I also do not believe blizzard have really tried to do anything other than a straight MMR reset that's still being felt due to everyone having 10+ accounts and nobody ever playing on their main when they place it (which i think is a huge problem). I experience the streaks too, but i'm exactly where I think I should be, because people do outplay me. E: Like, play 100 games (solo). You're gonna be within 1/2% of variance unless you've straight up started studying the game and gotten better or become an angry edgelord and started throwing without realising it (because angry people make poo poo in game decisions). E2: And yes, I absolutely have nights where i have a run of poo poo games. So does everyone, including your opponents. If you're trying every time you play, you're statistically going to have more wins by the virtue of just removing one bad possibility from the equation. dogstile fucked around with this message at 15:04 on Dec 18, 2022 |
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Dec 18, 2022 15:00
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dogstile posted:E: Like, play 100 games (solo). You're gonna be within 1/2% of variance unless you've straight up started studying the game and gotten better or become an angry edgelord and started throwing without realising it (because angry people make poo poo in game decisions). Holy moly is this true. I only started climbing out of plat with a major attitude adjustment, and once I got out I realized how much more positive and supportive people were at diamond.
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Dec 18, 2022 15:06
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I really like push (and am apparently in a minority) but I notice it is absolutely the easiest game mode to tilt and start making awful decisions in. The more I play it in comp the more I stop actually getting mad at my teammates for trickling in because I absolutely am guilty of that sometimes. Even just begging teammates to stop feeding is in itself a kind of soft tilt for me, I'm trying to get in the habit of using more specific language in that situation (regroup at <specific location> is one I find super useful) and using pings rather than vc where the frustration in my voice is probably quite apparent. I just had a colloseo game in comp where we got off to a convincing early lead but almost immediately blew it chasing a team fight while the enemy genji rode the payload for a disgusting amount of time and we all sort of fell apart psychologically at that point but still managed to pull it together enough to just eke it in
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Dec 18, 2022 15:14
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SadisTech posted:I don't think anything is guaranteed but I do observe that it's exceptionally common to get a string of many matches back-to-back where there are literal new players, or disabled players, or heavily sedated players on one team, where a staggered Ana will run solo into the enemy team, throw a nade into a shield and then die, where the tank slams DVa and then does nothing but walk at the enemy team, hold DM until it runs out, explode, die, repeat on respawn. Where the comms are non existent or toxic, where any sort of working team comp is a fantasy because people just pick whatever and die over and over and over. Then strings of matches back-to-back where the complete reverse happens and your team feels like a team of footballers kicking toddlers to the opposite end of a field. this is literally just normal variance
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Dec 18, 2022 17:05
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Herstory Begins Now posted:this is literally just normal variance But my dude has a conspiracy theory and conveniently everything they see confirms it!
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Dec 18, 2022 17:27
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The matchmaking is pretty awful and I'm surprised when people defend it, I'm fine with matches where one team is better than the other, but the number of matches I've encountered where by the end one team's average elims is in the single digits and the other team has like 30-40 is ridiculous. To me it looks like what's happening is to shorten queue times they're expanding the SR gap of the players they match together, you might not notice it every match because it's likely if you're say plat you're probably getting some silver players on your team mixed in with some masters, but I do think there are too many games that end up putting all the low ranked players in the lobby on one team.
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Dec 18, 2022 18:24
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They wouldn't have actively hidden Team SR and player ranks, that were previously visible, if they didn't have something to hide.
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Dec 18, 2022 18:28
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Didn't blizzard say they're deranking people each season on purpose? So if you're actually bronze, you suddenly have more silvers/golds/plats for the first few weeks in your matches, which will make them feel much more swingy. I'm assuming they're deranking people to keep them playing so they get their old rank back.
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Dec 18, 2022 18:31
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when people are saying that matchmaking is "broken" do they actually mean that it's bugged/nonfunctional, or do they mean they think it's bad/unpleasant? i assumed it was the former and that might be why reading this discussions was always confusing but maybe people mean the latter which I guess is fair but I don't really have a strong opinion on it.Inept posted:Didn't blizzard say they're deranking people each season on purpose? So if you're actually bronze, you suddenly have more silvers/golds/plats for the first few weeks in your matches, which will make them feel much more swingy. it depends on what you mean by deranking - they've confirmed that they lower your medal rank but also the medal rank basically exists exclusively as a thing you grind to feel a sense of progression and isn't actually part of the matchmaking process, and isn't really useful for judging someone's MMR. your actual matchmaking number/rank is hidden and doesn't decay nearly as aggressively
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Dec 18, 2022 18:36
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Jack Trades posted:They wouldn't have actively hidden Team SR and player ranks, that were previously visible, if they didn't have something to hide. This is an actual conspiracy phrase.
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Dec 18, 2022 19:02
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Countblanc posted:when people are saying that matchmaking is "broken" do they actually mean that it's bugged/nonfunctional, or do they mean they think it's bad/unpleasant? My honest opinion is both to some extent. The latter is not really something that can be addressed; it's just a complication of too many factors being in play at determining the skill level of a player in a game like OW that is an only semi-coherently mismatched jumble of different genres of games. Usually, that part fixes itself over time, as dogstile said. If you play 100 games, you should end up roughly where you are "supposed" to be. The bigger issue is that it is ACTUALLY bugged, and is creating all kinds of problems. The root of the problem is that they are intentionally trying to gently caress with the way players are placed, either upon first play in competitive or after the end of a season. This wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing, but based on the evidence, it seems like they keep loving up whatever algorithms they are adding to the game which is causing people to be placed WILDLY out of where they would be expected to be placed. Someone might end in Plat, and based on what they claim to be trying to do, might expect to start in Gold and get back to Plat after 10 or 20 wins or something. However, instead that person is getting placed in like mid-silver. Conversely, some people who have ended in like Bronze after season 1 somehow got placed in Plat or Diamond in season 2. On top of that, it's OW 2 and there is a huge influx of people who have no idea how to play the game, either because they forgot, can't adjust to changes in OW2, or are just new. If we are talking the part of the matchmaking relating to bad/unplesant, even more factors at work than normal (IE if we were still playing OW1 and things progressed as they had for years), so maybe it takes 200 games to figure out where you should really be. There are 'dud' players in the pool that are like landmines all over the place due to both of these things, so it makes it really frustrating to actually play 20 (let alone 200) games without just not wanting to deal with it anymore. So in summary, the TL;DR is that it seems like the adjustments Blizzard is making w/ regards to placements have been and still are wildly placing players beyond what should be expected, and there are just bad players littered throughout the pool at every rank which makes playing the game frustrating. The system itself is designed in way that should be correcting where players should be as they win/lose games, but a combination of misplaced and simply bad players being all over the place makes it so some players (like myself) are getting too frustrated to bother playing enough for the game to do so.
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Dec 18, 2022 19:10
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dogstile posted:This is an actual conspiracy phrase. Why the gently caress would they hide team sr otherwise if not to hide the fact that the matchmaking is worse than it was before?
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Dec 18, 2022 19:31
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cuz people were insanely toxic about it
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Dec 18, 2022 19:34
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It does seem like a dumb move to hide team SR ratings, but I mean, it makes sense if they are hiding individual ratings. Why would they have one but not the other? Maybe they want the flaws of the system as a whole to be less apparent while they try their tweaks, which they have been loving up for two seasons so far. The gently caress ups would be even more apparent if individual and team SR values were visible. Herstory Begins Now posted:cuz people were insanely toxic about it Once again, the same thing that always comes up. Toxic people are gonna be toxic. Changing something like this at the cost of less information being available about the game to the player is a bad idea 100% of the time, because it isn't a source for toxicity, just an outlet. If you remove it, toxic players aren't going to magically not be toxic, they are just gonna find other ways (probably even worse ones) to be toxic.
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Dec 18, 2022 19:36
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Herstory Begins Now posted:cuz people were insanely toxic about it It is this.
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Dec 18, 2022 19:39
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People were losing their minds before the match would even start if someone was a metal below theirs.
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Dec 18, 2022 19:40
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Herstory Begins Now posted:cuz people were insanely toxic about it I'm sure the same developers that are adding "win X matches in quickplay to get loot" challenges, that actively incentivize players to hate the players that they perceive to be holding them back from completing their challenges, cares a lot about reducing player toxicity. Right. Either they're loving stupid that they still don't realize that they should be having "play 30 matches" rather than "win 15 matches" challenges, if they want to reduce toxicity, or they just don't give a poo poo. And I don't think they're stupid. What a loving coincidence that the one thing they decided to "combat toxicity" is also the one thing that would cover their own asses.
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Dec 18, 2022 19:40
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lmao
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Dec 18, 2022 19:43
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Cpt_Obvious posted:People were losing their minds before the match would even start if someone was a metal below theirs. I mean, the game is balanced on team averages, not individual player ranks. This is for two main reasons: 1) it reduces queue times by a lot 2) it allows people to queue as more than one player. The 2nd is arguably a problem, because it results in lower quality games, but that's the sacrifice that has to be made for convenience. Maybe they should amend that part of the matchmaking if they want people to not be salty about it, but then those players would complain about longer queues.
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Dec 18, 2022 19:54
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Cpt_Obvious posted:People were losing their minds before the match would even start if someone was a metal below theirs. I didnt see this that often tbh, maybe if like a Bronze somehow got into a gold lobby for example, but rarely did I see people complain about say a gold player in a lobby if it was mostly low plat players because the difference could maybe just be a 100 SR. Right now it feels and sounds like Bronze players are being put into lobbies with plats, GM players are being put into diamond lobbies etc. If this is a bug they need to fix it, if this is some sort of feature of their stupid matchmaking they need to scrap it and start again. I do think they've expanded their matchmaking range to shorten queue times because they probably know long queues deter players from playing, and I can't see them favoring fairer, tighter matchmaking over longer queue times. Just Chamber fucked around with this message at 20:21 on Dec 18, 2022 |
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Dec 18, 2022 20:18
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they're kinda hosed there because they have a shitload of different game modes and a clearly insufficient playerbase to actually have fast matchmaking so they have to compromise on something to keep it from taking 10 minutes to fill a lobby. I'll never understand why the compromise is mmr range when they could just... not have 16 different game modes
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Dec 18, 2022 20:22
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Herstory Begins Now posted:I'll never understand why the compromise is mmr range when they could just... not have 16 different game modes There are a decent number of people who would just stop playing if you got rid of open queue or mystery heroes or deathmatch, and those are people that could be spending money ranked open queue is bizarre though
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Dec 18, 2022 20:34
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Inept posted:There are a decent number of people who would just stop playing if you got rid of open queue or mystery heroes or deathmatch, and those are people that could be spending money We had a person in this very thread that was screaming about how Role Queue killed their dog or something. It's probably for people like that.
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Dec 18, 2022 20:38
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Inept posted:There are a decent number of people who would just stop playing if you got rid of open queue or mystery heroes or deathmatch, and those are people that could be spending money i wonder if that number is more than the number of people who will quit because apparently virtually no one thinks that matchmaking feels good anyways that catch-22 is why I say that they're hosed on that particular issue
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Dec 18, 2022 20:42
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Jack Trades posted:We had a person in this very thread that was screaming about how Role Queue killed their dog or something. Role queue did kill my dog. I still play it, but its made the game worse. That's heavily subjective tho Just Chamber posted:I didnt see this that often tbh, maybe if like a Bronze somehow got into a gold lobby for example, but rarely did I see people complain about say a gold player in a lobby if it was mostly low plat players because the difference could maybe just be a 100 SR. Right now it feels and sounds like Bronze players are being put into lobbies with plats, GM players are being put into diamond lobbies etc. If this is a bug they need to fix it, if this is some sort of feature of their stupid matchmaking they need to scrap it and start again. This is funny because there's a dude melting down in my game right now about ranks. E2: The lower rank dude just won us the game with a nutty dva bomb holy lmao. dogstile fucked around with this message at 21:01 on Dec 18, 2022 |
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Dec 18, 2022 20:44
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