|
SlothfulCobra posted:I think the theory is that the fights for equal rights already happened and were won so there wouldn't need to be continused protracted fights over it, and the current state of things could just keep going. ah yes, Whig history the reason why Whiggism (and liberalism in general lmao) is bunk is that, as you say, even though minority groups have won their rights, adherents to Whig history are all  that those groups actively need to defend their rights from reactionaries, particularly fascists, because the history of western civilisation is supposed to be a steady march towards progress!!!granted, that definition of progress tends to be fluid and not backed by any solid principles or goals lmao SlothfulCobra posted:I think one of the points of libertarianism is that it can take like a "neutral" stance on progressive issues instead of having to be all the way regressive. yyyyep. To restate the obvious, there is little to no difference between American libertarianism and fascism nowadays, because fascists have taken their economic tenets and married them to horrendously reactionary bullshit. Libertarianism should be anti-state in literally every sense, but in practice, American libertarians are fine with the state existing solely to tread on everyone who isn't a white cishet libertarian. (And of course, the definition of 'libertarian' is extended to include fascists here.)
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2022 11:19
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 20, 2024 09:53 |
|
|
And it's still worth noting that the Libertarian Party as a thing seems to be on its way to dying entirely. https://twitter.com/okcspowell/status/1478129457751859204 They have largely failed to maintain their own distinct identity or philosophy in comparison to the Republican Party, and I think the Republican Party isn't really in good condition either so the politically active people who already lean that way are finding less reason to stay away. Finding true believer libertarians to make fun of is a little like big game hunting for endangered flightless birds.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2022 16:47
|
|
|
The loudest libertarian around here (haven't encountered him since I got off Facebook) couldn't get past anger at the state. The market is the ultimate expression of survival of the fittest, atlas rising to the top, and the state are criminals limiting our potential to ruthlessly amass resources. Power dynamics, human desperation, systems designed to bind us... people without diverse options wrt to where they work or what they buy? Communist propaganda, weakness encouraged by the state to justify itself. He literally couldn't quit this mythological "free market". Why yes, he was set up and supported by his family, why do you ask? Fister Roboto posted:This is where the job creator myth comes in - it's ok for your boss to take the majority of the value you produce because he created the job for you. Somebody on the radio a month or so back was described as a landlord, but she corrected them. She was in fact a "housing provider". So... so noble.
|
|
#
?
Dec 18, 2022 17:11
|
|
|
JustJeff88 posted:Despite all evidence that it's a bad idea, people keep pumping out more children. Overpopulation is the elephant in the room that no-one will acknowledge, and I've realised that there is some truth in a roundabout way to the Malthusian imperative. People keep pumping out children regardless of what happens and we're not allowed to criticise that because apparently anything that anyone does with their genitals is sacred and beyond reproach. No, overpopulation isn't the problem, resource allocation is.
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2022 03:37
|
|
|
Maybe not JustJeff's intent, but the people pushing anti natalist rhetoric always seem to want OTHER people to stop cranking out kids. I know there's a subset of doomer leftist that won't have kids for this very reason, but the vast majority of the time I hear this brought up its about how other people need to keep their legs shut, not themselves.
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2022 03:46
|
|
|
Panfilo posted:Maybe not JustJeff's intent, but the people pushing anti natalist rhetoric always seem to want OTHER people to stop cranking out kids. I know there's a subset of doomer leftist that won't have kids for this very reason, but the vast majority of the time I hear this brought up its about how other people need to keep their legs shut, not themselves. Historically, it is the battle-cry of the eugenicists: Those subhumans are outbreeding us! We need to stop this before we all suffer from racial degeneration!  from an American Eugenics Society demonstration 1915, where they got/coerced four "vagrants" to do this.
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2022 03:58
|
|
|
Aren't birth rates lowering in the US too? Def seen a lot of people online around my generation to slightly older talk about how they can't afford to have a kid, and even if they could would they want to given *gestures at the state of the world* (often see them bring up climate change in particular)
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2022 06:52
|
|
|
HootTheOwl posted:Sound like galt I kept reading the title and automatically adding my name, so I did I've also been adding spelling mistakes to other thread titles and changing them back like 3 hours later to gently caress with people
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2022 06:58
|
|
|
Captain_Maclaine posted:Historically, it is the battle-cry of the eugenicists: Those subhumans are outbreeding us! We need to stop this before we all suffer from racial degeneration! Which I suspect was the bit that he actually wanted, because if you actually look at things that work, and design evidence based policy, making sure all women and girls complete secondary education and have opportunities for careers outside of the home is the best way lowering population. Malthus was just writing MRA fanfic, none of what he proposed would have led to the outcomes he claimed to want. What's interesting is that just as anyone with a genuine good faith interest in planned birth over the past century has turned away from eugenics and Malthusian appeals to chastity and tradition and family and towards things that actually work like contraception and sex education and feminism, people calling themselves libertarians have gone in the complete opposite direction. Pretty much the only things that 1920s libertarians and anarchists and voluntarists could agree on were free love, voluntary birth, and the end of the Comstock laws. Now instead there's a whole bunch of them arguing for a return to traditional oppression and calling it liberty.
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2022 09:44
|
|
|
Andy Ngo is claiming they finally arrested the person involved in the Wi Spa incident. Wasn't that whole thing a hoax? Also kind of funny his supporters were mad that Andy was referring to the suspect with female pronouns in some discussions.
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2022 13:27
|
|
|
The line from "too many people" to "ok but who is deciding who gets to have kids" isn't one that ever actually needs to be crossed. But probably we could stand to have less total human biomass and more insects.
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2022 15:36
|
|
|
Digamma-F-Wau posted:Aren't birth rates lowering in the US too? Def seen a lot of people online around my generation to slightly older talk about how they can't afford to have a kid, and even if they could would they want to given *gestures at the state of the world* (often see them bring up climate change in particular) They are, and in most other developed nations as well. Population increase largely derives from less developed parts of the planet, which adds another layer to the "who's concerned with overpopulation, and who do they think need to stop having kids" question. Panfilo posted:Andy Ngo is claiming they finally arrested the person involved in the Wi Spa incident. Wasn't that whole thing a hoax? Without knowing anything else, I've every confidence he's just lying again.
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2022 16:08
|
|
|
A lot of contemporary concerns about overpopulation go back to Paul Ehrlich's The Population Bomb. There was even a trend of sci-fi novels about the issue around that time. (Stand On Zanzibar, The World Inside, and most famously Make Room! Make Room!) And it was insanely racist, like he was writing about a taxi ride in India like it was the zombie apocalypse, all those scary brown faces on the other side of the window.
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2022 16:20
|
|
|
Malthus's theories on overpopulation were famously first used to scientifically argue that irish babies cause potato blight, so it's better for the environment to not aid Ireland during the great famine. The theory first started out when there were around one billion people on the planet, and it has apparently proven to be untrue ever since then despite constant predictions, and now global population growth seems to be slowing by most estimates.
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2022 16:59
|
|
|
SlothfulCobra posted:And it's still worth noting that the Libertarian Party as a thing seems to be on its way to dying entirely. Libertarianisnm inherent philosophy makes organizing next to impossible.
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2022 17:36
|
|
|
Digamma-F-Wau posted:Aren't birth rates lowering in the US too? Def seen a lot of people online around my generation to slightly older talk about how they can't afford to have a kid, and even if they could would they want to given *gestures at the state of the world* (often see them bring up climate change in particular) Birth rates in the US have gone below the population replacement rate. That plus deaths from COVID (and other problems like the opioid epidemic) caused the US population to have a historically small gain of 0.1% in 2021 https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2021/12/us-population-grew-in-2021-slowest-rate-since-founding-of-the-nation.html That's the slowest rate of increase since the nation's founding. The only thing that keeps the US population from contracting is immigration. Incidentally, since immigrants tend to be millennials or younger, millennials have passed boomers as the largest US demographic, while Gen X is just... there, I guess. I used to believe that the US would never have a problem with population decline because of immigration... but as of right now Title 42 STILL hasn't been removed, even though it was explicitly an anti-COVID measure, and even though almost every other government anti-COVID measure has been lifted. If the US doesn't get its act together and welcome the immigrants it needs, it could end up with a shrinking population like Japan currently has.
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2022 18:06
|
|
|
SlothfulCobra posted:They have largely failed to maintain their own distinct identity or philosophy in comparison to the Republican Party Ever since Trump got elected, there's been a lot of Republicans who insist the party has become "more moderate," by which they seem to mean the Evangelical wing isn't quite as influential as it used to be. In the real world it is entirely possible to justify bigoted and reactionary positions by appealing to "science" and "facts not feelings," but that's conveniently ignored as is the present-day rhetoric and actions of many of these "moderate" Republicans. And of course, to help sweeten the pill, the Democratic Party is portrayed as so "far-left" that the GOP must be "moderate" by default.
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2022 18:16
|
|
|
Victar posted:Birth rates in the US have gone below the population replacement rate. That plus deaths from COVID (and other problems like the opioid epidemic) caused the US population to have a historically small gain of 0.1% in 2021 Yes but so what? It's only capitalism that depends on ever-increasing growth uber alles. It's not like a culture dies just because the population stops growing or slowly shrinks.
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2022 19:14
|
|
|
Why are they like this  https://twitter.com/TRHLofficial/status/1605250670281490439?t=u2SPlunD7ugYK3MSgL47SQ&s=19
|
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2022 22:44
|
|
|
Panfilo posted:Why are they like this These people will portray bog standard liberals as indistinguishable from Stalin for the most absurd reasons, but act like all logic and decorum has suddenly been shattered when a right-wing figure has "fascist" hurled at them for any reason. They will also insist that fascists are socialists and that "the left" were the real fascists all along. Enver Zogha fucked around with this message at 05:34 on Dec 21, 2022 |
|
#
?
Dec 20, 2022 23:08
|
|
|
Weatherman posted:Yes but so what? It's only capitalism that depends on ever-increasing growth uber alles. It's not like a culture dies just because the population stops growing or slowly shrinks. One issue with population declines is that they naturally tend to accelerate. When there's fewer young people who are willing and able to raise children, and when those young people can't afford to raise more than one or two children (if they can afford to have children at all), you'll have a smaller next generation (unless immigrants make up the shortfall),. Then the generation after that will be even smaller, and so on. This reinforcing cycle has been observed in Japan and China, over the past few decades. When the birth rate plummets, then no matter what economic system is in play, the economy is going to take a hit unless immigration brings in young people. A lower birth rate results in fewer young people and more old people - that is, fewer people who can work and more people who can't work as much, who can't work at all, or who need more medical care. This is just cold-hearted economics. From a more humanitarian viewpoint, a smaller worldwide population overall should put less stress on the planet, so a gradual birth rate decline worldwide would be ideal, even though there would be economic costs. Economic systems other than capitalism could mitigate the pain. One of the reasons Japan and China are struggling with a population crisis is that their laws and cultures expect young people to take care of their elderly parents (and when a couple is spending time and money caring for their parents, they have less time and money to invest in raising children). America, for all its many, many flaws, does at least have Social Security and Medicare to ease the burden of caring for the elderly. (I know, I know, these systems are VERY far from perfect. For the record, I'm in favor of Medicare for All.)
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2022 19:55
|
|
|
I feel like the post you are responding to already addressed every point you made before you made it: yes, but so what? The economy is made up, who cares if it shrinks? Changing age demographics could create a problem of caring for the elderly, but again that is a problem caused by a lack of social safety net, not the population changes themselves.
|
|
#
?
Dec 21, 2022 22:17
|
|
|
The economy is the aggregate of people making things and doing things, so in general if you want things to be done or things to be made, you want the economy to be doing well. It's as made up as gerunds.
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2022 00:16
|
|
|
Is a large global population really a strain on the environment if most of the places with high birth rates are so impoverished that a majority of the children born there die in childhood? It seems like a post-industrial shithole like the us is much worse for the planet when the only life it allows anyone is one of endless consumption.
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2022 00:37
|
|
|
SlothfulCobra posted:The economy is the aggregate of people making things and doing things, so in general if you want things to be done or things to be made, you want the economy to be doing well. It's as made up as gerunds. You need less things done or made if there are less people though. More economic activity isn't valuable in and of itself.
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2022 02:01
|
|
|
I AM GRANDO posted:Is a large global population really a strain on the environment if most of the places with high birth rates are so impoverished that a majority of the children born there die in childhood? It seems like a post-industrial shithole like the us is much worse for the planet when the only life it allows anyone is one of endless consumption. When a local population becomes so large that it clears forests, overgrazes grassland, drains water reservoirs and so on to desperately try to keep its children from starving to death, that does contribute to the strain on the environment. It also means that a lot of people are suffering horribly, and if birth control had been more readily accessible, then their suffering might have been prevented. I'm not downplaying the very real problem of environmental pollution from developed nations like the US, which notoriously has a much larger per capita global contribution to problems like climate change. The US and other developed nations are wrecking the environment. But global overpopulation makes things worse too.
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2022 02:42
|
|
|
A lot of commentary equates consumption linearly with environmental damage but the bigger and more sophisticated the economy, generally the less damage for a given quality of life. A good example is China, it is lifting hundreds of millions out of poverty and yet are making huge inroads into air pollution, world leading investment in nuclear, wind, solar etc as its economy becomes more sophisticated. Burkina Faso or Mali, with high rates of birth (and I leave it to someone else to tell them they need birth control, most kids are born within wedlock and are wanted, thank you very much) have locally devastating economic effects if their local economy does not adjust to the changing population. e) typo Electric Wrigglies fucked around with this message at 11:44 on Dec 22, 2022 |
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2022 09:34
|
|
|
Again, it's not the people that are the problem there, it's the resources. And it's the powerful countries who are actively making sure the weaker ones are unable to develop their infrastructure and economies of scale. Also lol that everyone whining about birthrates in the US and Japan and Taiwan will stare uncomprehendingly and/or call you a commie mutant traitor if you mention barely anyone is having kids because fuckall people under 40 can afford it, because they get paid fuckall, they're not given any free time to spend with their families if they had them, and rent is through the roof. Landlordism is probably what they want to defend, of course.
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2022 10:50
|
|
|
Poor libertarians lmao https://twitter.com/_PoppyBlake_/status/1605725887181094912?t=0ZLPLNsoZDWc54HgLEXuIQ&s=19
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2022 12:59
|
|
|
While I am not surprised, the comments are rather amusing here because it brings up all sorts of contradictions about libertarianism. Why should the state be able to intervene on an agreement between a family and their doctor? If age of consent is an arbitrary figure then who is to say a minor cannot consent to treatment? What does the libertarian party actually intend to do about this? Why just state an opinion if it isn't in regard to policy? https://twitter.com/LPNational/status/1605668933226311680?t=MWP5xkFqIwXZJCszlAX5KQ&s=19
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2022 13:25
|
|
|
Panfilo posted:While I am not surprised, the comments are rather amusing here because it brings up all sorts of contradictions about libertarianism. When I was 3 I broke my leg and it required major surgery. Show me where I consented. These so called 'doctors' forced their walk-affirming care on me, a mere child, before I had any say in the matter. E: Fun factoid this was like 30 years ago and the doctor is still practicing and just last year replaced the hip on a friend of my dad's. A real "wait, who?" moment HootTheOwl fucked around with this message at 14:27 on Dec 22, 2022 |
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2022 14:24
|
|
|
So Libertarians in the US are just Republicans?
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2022 14:53
|
|
|
HootTheOwl posted:When I was 3 I broke my leg and it required major surgery. Show me where I consented. They actually compare it to murder, if you can believe that. In that they agree murder should be illegal and should be punished, and that people that transition children should also be punished accordingly.
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2022 15:02
|
|
|
"No genital alteration of any infants, male or female or intersex, for anything other than pressing surgical reasons, minors restricted to reversible treatments like puberty blockers until they are judged to be Gillick competent, state stays out of social transition" would be a coherent set of principles for them to forward, but this is just trans panic BS. e: Panfilo posted:to them, a child is getting "mutilated" by a doctor who is chopping off "healthy breast tissue". 
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2022 15:04
|
|
|
They obviously consider things like gynecomastia legit disorders because they don't think a boy is supposed to have boobs, so it's reasonable to them that boys get that corrected. They think girls are supposed to have boobs, so getting them hacked off is unethical in their logic. A few other brain twisters about this: -They're playing rhetorical keep away about this subject, it's "just their opinion" but why would a political party have opinions it didn't at least PRETEND to work on? (ie building the wall, student loan forgiveness, bail reform, legal weed etc). Why even bring it up then? -If they don't think parents should be forced to vaccinate their kids then why should parents be forced to prevent their kids from transitioning? Isn't it the same thing? -Why should "statists" get to define when someone is old enough to make this decision about their body? They already think the age of consent is arbitrary anyway.
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2022 15:54
|
|
|
Panfilo posted:They obviously consider things like gynecomastia legit disorders because they don't think a boy is supposed to have boobs, so it's reasonable to them that boys get that corrected. They think girls are supposed to have boobs, so getting them hacked off is unethical in their logic. 
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2022 16:21
|
|
|
not to just blurt out the obvious but of course it's not logically consistent — their transphobic reasoning is pretty clearly motivated by their transphobic end goals (because trans people are
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2022 16:47
|
|
|
Mandatory Vanilla Ice Cream on Wednesdays but no taxes or trans
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2022 17:50
|
|
|
Is Rocky Road an acceptable alternative? Or do libertarians have a hangup with roads lol I forget.
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2022 17:56
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 20, 2024 09:53 |
|
|
Professor Shark posted:So Libertarians in the US are just Republicans? Absolutely. Demographically, the average self-identified libertarian is a white male Protestant Republican. They skew almost entirely white, mostly male, somewhat younger than the average Republican.
|
|
#
?
Dec 22, 2022 17:58
|
|