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Just gonna throw out there that despite what folks are taught in elementary school, the ability or inability to reproduce together is not actually a strong or definitive signifier of species/speciation. There are countless examples in nature that would make such a rule unworkable. It gets especially dumb in plants, which happily share genes across different genera with wild abandon, lol, but even among mammals it's just one of a basket of criteria that taxonomists appeal to, none of which can be relied upon wholly on their own. The third and fourth paragraphs of the wikipedia page on species can serve as a very basic introduction, although obviously all the caveats of wiki content apply. The deeper meaning of this is that "species" is a model, a tool for study and classification; and a very imperfect one at that. It's not actually real. Biology doesn't care about trying to keep different individual organisms, populations of organisms, etc. unambiguously categorizable. So D&D books using any word to distinguish between the biology of different people is always a linguistic compromise that is at least partially disconnected from real-world biology. The responsibility is to build a game that avoids racism, race essentialism, and  as much as possible, and the current compromise of calling these mechanically distinct builds "species" is probably way better than the previous compromise of calling them "races." But there is no word that would be a perfect fit because nature refuses to cooperate.From an in-universe perspective, I think it's important to remember that you control the fiction and can decide how characters perceive and discuss their differences. You can choose to have your characters living in a world where people aren't being racist to each other and that's probably a good starting point for table safety. From that perspective, when characters want or need to discuss "what kind of person are you/am I" with other characters, describing each other based on cultural or familial or geographical heritages rather than defaulting to "I'm an elf" might be more inclusive and less likely to evoke harmful real-world stereotyping behaviors while still allowing you to spec out a PC using dwarven or elven or whatever stats from the book. Just a suggestion and my perspective, I'm not mod-posting here.
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Dec 19, 2022 21:52
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ICON does a pretty good job of that.quote:Broadly speaking members of all Kin can be found Even if our setting has a nation "of elves" where everyone loves trees and archery and poo poo, we can still show that that's a cultural trait rather than . Elves from other places find these elves strange and don't understand their rituals. There's some dwarves whose ancestors moved to Forestopia from Mountainland centuries ago, and now they wear green and whine about the world fading like their neighbors.
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Dec 19, 2022 22:20
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Just gonna play Bunnies & Burrows from now on.
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Dec 19, 2022 22:55
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Mirage posted:Just gonna play Bunnies & Burrows from now on. A hare raising experience from beginning to end!
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Dec 20, 2022 00:32
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i like the idea of using culture and homeland to distinguish between characters rather than using species, but i am keenly aware that dnd doesn't have a single setting. that said, without telling me to buy one of the books or adventures that contains a gazetteer, where should i look for brief summaries of the major forgotten realm nations, cultures, or cities? is there a free page out there that roughly outlines the vibe or reputation of waterdeep, for example, as compared with its local neighbours?
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Dec 20, 2022 11:02
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Krul posted:i like the idea of using culture and homeland to distinguish between characters rather than using species, but i am keenly aware that dnd doesn't have a single setting. that said, without telling me to buy one of the books or adventures that contains a gazetteer, where should i look for brief summaries of the major forgotten realm nations, cultures, or cities? is there a free page out there that roughly outlines the vibe or reputation of waterdeep, for example, as compared with its local neighbours? I think the forgotten realms wiki (I think on fandom.com?) does a decent job of conveying some stuff that you would otherwise need multiple books for. Your results may vary depending on location.
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Dec 20, 2022 12:21
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Rubberduke posted:I think the forgotten realms wiki (I think on fandom.com?) does a decent job of conveying some stuff that you would otherwise need multiple books for. Your results may vary depending on location. Yeah the FR wiki is your best bet for this sort of thing.
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Dec 20, 2022 12:27
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Krul posted:i like the idea of using culture and homeland to distinguish between characters rather than using species, but i am keenly aware that dnd doesn't have a single setting. Like the idea that 1dnd Dwarves have a more attuned inner ear which gives them tremorsense, or tieflings have abilities related to their infernal bloodline. Makes them feel like more distinct types of creature, as opposed to the old 'All elves grew up trained to use bows and longswords / all dwarves just know poo poo about stone' kind of racial essentialism. 1dnd orcs though. Yeah lets take the race that's historically been used as an awkward allegory for black people and make their abilities "just naturally good sprinters and stronger than the other races." That's one that still needs several passes from the cultural consultants.
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Dec 20, 2022 14:06
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Bobby Deluxe posted:1dnd orcs though. Yeah lets take the race that's historically been used as an awkward allegory for black people and make their abilities "just naturally good sprinters and stronger than the other races." That's one that still needs several passes from the cultural consultants. Orcs were never black people. Like, Lord of the Rings has actual black people in it and the orcs are a seperate group. I think that meme started in 2017 with the dumb Wil Smith movie.
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Dec 20, 2022 14:40
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Yeah I thought orcs have always been an awkward allegory for Asians.
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Dec 20, 2022 14:44
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If orcs are an allegory for any racial group I think it would be Germans. At least to Tolkien. I donno if orcs really had much lore before lord of the rings. I know goblins are really old folk things.
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Dec 20, 2022 14:52
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Rutibex posted:Orcs were never black people. Like, Lord of the Rings has actual black people in it and the orcs are a seperate group. I think that meme started in 2017 with the dumb Wil Smith movie.
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Dec 20, 2022 14:58
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Hopefully I can shortcut a lot of this conversation by reminding people that Gygax used the “nits make lice” argument when talking about how it was moral for a paladin to kill orc children. Depictions of orcs in DND have been racist against Africans since the start. I know we’re also talking about Tolkein, who struggled with the idea of orcs as born evil (incapable of salvation) and yeah Mordor is supposed to be a direct allegory for Germany.
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Dec 20, 2022 15:04
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Chakan posted:Hopefully I can shortcut a lot of this conversation by reminding people that Gygax used the “nits make lice” argument when talking about how it was moral for a paladin to kill orc children. Depictions of orcs in DND have been racist against Africans since the start. "nits make lice" was about murdering american indigenous tho
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Dec 20, 2022 15:11
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hot cocoa on the couch posted:"nits make lice" was about murdering american indigenous tho It isn't like there's an exclusivity clause here, man, statements can be racist in multiple ways at the same time Chakan posted:Hopefully I can shortcut a lot of this conversation by reminding people that Gygax used the “nits make lice” argument when talking about how it was moral for a paladin to kill orc children. Depictions of orcs in DND have been racist against Africans since the start. Yeah, the best that can be said about Tolkien's treatment of the Orcs (and, for that matter, also his treatment of the Haradrim) is that he was aware of the issues and working on revisions to address those issues throughout his life.
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Dec 20, 2022 15:27
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Depending on the source, orcs are either the subhuman uncivilized horde poised to roll over precious civilization and destroy it, or the noble savage who only wants to live free and moral but corrupt civilization seeks to oppress. Both are super racist, just for different reasons. Depending on the writer's own internal biases, they might be a stand in for Africans, Native Americans, Asians, or any other marginalized group that the writer fears or admires.
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Dec 20, 2022 15:38
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So my players finished LoX last night, I felt like I was performing a mercy killing ending this campaign; they made almost deliberately bad decisions starting in chapter 10. By far the best of which was to intentionally ignore the telepathic message to pick up the ring off the ground in the arena, for reasons (could be a trap???). After the arena battle they stormed out refusing to persuade any allies, so I contrived their arrival with vampirate man's ship invisibility to have them sneak aboard the elven station. It was very funny doing the big priest announcement for 'whoever has the ring has the right to rule' because at this point even I forgot they never picked it up. I was fully expecting them to provide it, but instead got a big laugh out of the "Uhhh... we left that on the ground" and shrugging at the elves during this pivotal moment to determine the fate of multiple worlds. Overall I would say the campaign gets a little messy at the end as written, but it was pretty fun and I'd recommend it - perhaps with the suggestion that you take ship combat rules from another source. I already have some fun campaign ideas in the same setting for next time, I think I am going to force them to go through an adventure at the Space DMV to get their ship back at the rock of Braal, staffed by a couple of the Xaryxian elite they forced to get normal jobs... but for now I am looking forward to just being a player for awhile.
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Dec 20, 2022 15:46
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Orcs exist across a bunch of different settings and properties to make a variety of points. Warcraft orcs are all about the displaced culture land rights issues, but are different to tolkein orcs and different again to warhammer orcs / orks. Bright just clumsily lampshaded something that's been present across a variety of settings.
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Dec 20, 2022 15:48
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Azathoth posted:Depending on the source, orcs are either the subhuman uncivilized horde poised to roll over precious civilization and destroy it, or the noble savage who only wants to live free and moral but corrupt civilization seeks to oppress. Both are super racist, just for different reasons. What do the ones in Japanese media that have pig heads represent?
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Dec 20, 2022 16:06
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Asterite34 posted:What do the ones in Japanese media that have pig heads represent? The ainu?
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Dec 20, 2022 16:08
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Asterite34 posted:What do the ones in Japanese media that have pig heads represent? D&D 1e Orcs who had pig heads. Akira Toriyama then drew a pig head Orc for dragon quest as an enemy and due to how iconic Dragon Quest became, orcs have been associated with pigs ever since in Japan.
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Dec 20, 2022 16:20
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Asterite34 posted:What do the ones in Japanese media that have pig heads represent? Those aren't orcs they are Moblins
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Dec 20, 2022 16:40
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It's interesting how in scifi circles particularly the Humanity gently caress Yeah genre it circles back around to humans generally appearing as the orc foil for the other scifi space faring empires.
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Dec 20, 2022 16:44
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Scornful Sexbot posted:So my players finished LoX last night, I felt like I was performing a mercy killing ending this campaign; they made almost deliberately bad decisions starting in chapter 10. By far the best of which was to intentionally ignore the telepathic message to pick up the ring off the ground in the arena, for reasons (could be a trap???). After the arena battle they stormed out refusing to persuade any allies, so I contrived their arrival with vampirate man's ship invisibility to have them sneak aboard the elven station. It was very funny doing the big priest announcement for 'whoever has the ring has the right to rule' because at this point even I forgot they never picked it up. I was fully expecting them to provide it, but instead got a big laugh out of the "Uhhh... we left that on the ground" and shrugging at the elves during this pivotal moment to determine the fate of multiple worlds. It's hilarious how similar and how wildly different our two groups were. So what was the final outcome, did they fight the obsidian guy? Did they save their planet?
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Dec 20, 2022 16:52
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Asterite34 posted:What do the ones in Japanese media that have pig heads represent? Those are cops, OP 
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Dec 20, 2022 17:56
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Rutibex posted:If orcs are an allegory for any racial group I think it would be Germans. At least to Tolkien. I donno if orcs really had much lore before lord of the rings. I know goblins are really old folk things. Tolkien's orcs speak like lower-class English city folk though They're more a metaphor for the degradation of people by industrialisation
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Dec 20, 2022 18:51
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Just putting this out there but if you’re super-positive in every way that various depictions of orcs (a fictional humanoid race that could literally be anything because it’s fictional yet somehow still embraces the tropes of savage races possibly from the dark continent or the shadowy jungle island filled with voodoo and self-mutilation) across a wide variety of platforms aren't racist then you might just need to take a moment and examine your thought processes and the origins of those thoughts.
imagine dungeons fucked around with this message at 22:56 on Dec 20, 2022 |
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Dec 20, 2022 19:23
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Bright (2017)'s orcs were decidedly not a stand-in for any real-world ethnic group, but rather a science fiction hypothetical positing an ethnic group below even Black people in the American racial hierarchy.
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Dec 20, 2022 21:11
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We have the option of not talking about Bright, that is on the table
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Dec 20, 2022 21:19
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Asterite34 posted:What do the ones in Japanese media that have pig heads represent? R*pe https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0E38qzYW_mA
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Dec 20, 2022 22:46
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...oh right, I should get back to that KonoSuba TRPG review I was doing at some point. If only they'd fix the ebook formatting so the text didn't glitch out every other page.
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Dec 20, 2022 23:29
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Mr. Lobe posted:We have the option of not talking about Bright, that is on the table I enjoyed it for what it was.
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Dec 21, 2022 02:02
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Hey folks, I was looking at picking up our Wild Beyond the Witchlight campaign after the holidays, but I had a few ideas about how to expand the scope of the campaign to include the whole of the Feywild, not just Prismeer. For reference, we’re using the Lost Things hook with 3 of my 5 PCs being Witchlight Hands. I thought maybe having the action take place amidst a war between the Unseelie and Seelie with the Hourglass Coven and the League of Malevolence helping Tasha replace the real Zybilna to play the Fey courts against each other and to manipulate the Fomorians back into power. The thought here is that it gives my PCs (a Harengon monk, a Goliath Barbarian, Human Artificer, Human Old Ones Warlock, and a Tabaxi Abberant Mind sorcerer) a lot more intrigue to take in and more compelling NPCs (the Fey courts). This would mean I’d have to expand the scope to include the Murkendraw and other Feywild landmarks on top of the locations of the existing adventure. Is this a reasonable adjustment or will this make me want to pull my hair out?
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Dec 21, 2022 02:32
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Chakan posted:I know we’re also talking about Tolkein, who struggled with the idea of orcs as born evil (incapable of salvation) and yeah Mordor is supposed to be a direct allegory for Germany. Gort posted:Tolkien's orcs speak like lower-class English city folk though anyway thanks for the recommendation and yes i agree with this as well Bobby Deluxe posted:I do like some of the racial differences, when they're done carefully and can either be explained as evolutionary / magical adaptations.
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Dec 21, 2022 02:50
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Azathoth posted:Depending on the source, orcs are either the subhuman uncivilized horde poised to roll over precious civilization and destroy it, or the noble savage who only wants to live free and moral but corrupt civilization seeks to oppress. Both are super racist, just for different reasons. I honestly haven't seen any fantasy writers compare real-world groups to orcs in a positive manner. From what I've seen it's always been negative, but I don't doubt the converse exists out there.
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Dec 21, 2022 03:10
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Libertad! posted:I honestly haven't seen any fantasy writers compare real-world groups to orcs in a positive manner. From what I've seen it's always been negative, but I don't doubt the converse exists out there. I read a noble savages version of orcs a few years back. https://www.amazon.com/Kings-Property-Queen-Orcs-1/dp/0345496507 The humans are into endless war, slavery, various bad things. The orcs have been compelled to fight for the evil king and are considered little better than monsters, until a slave girl that prepares their meals learns their language etc. Noble underdogs who just want to be free. If you go to the kindle section there is so much self-published horny orc fiction. So much. Which I assume is complimentary toward the orcs so they can be good romantic leads, but I'm not going to read any to find out.
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Dec 21, 2022 04:43
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Facebook Aunt posted:I read a noble savages version of orcs a few years back. https://www.amazon.com/Kings-Property-Queen-Orcs-1/dp/0345496507 The humans are into endless war, slavery, various bad things. The orcs have been compelled to fight for the evil king and are considered little better than monsters, until a slave girl that prepares their meals learns their language etc. Noble underdogs who just want to be free. I read a novel years ago that focused on a mercenary band of orcs. I honestly only remember two things: 1) the medic for the band had to amputate another orc's leg or arm and that night made sure the amputee orc ate a "special soup" that only the amputee was allowed to have, and the way some of the other orcs complain about him getting meat made it very clear that this orc was being fed his own limb because they were so low on supplies. 2) The Evil Queen (She was either human or elf) had a strap-on made from a unicorn horn. Point two is when I went ahead and closed the book and put it in pile that probably went to like Half-Price Books because I have no idea where it disappeared to otherwise.
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Dec 21, 2022 04:52
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I always found the idea that Orcs were supposed to be an unflattering potryal of other races weird, are D&D Orcs not meant to be cool? I don't see a big grey dude with tusks riding a wolf and think 'What a savage!' I think 'Hell yes!' I have no doubt that they were MEANT to be racist, but it backfired in my case since every time I saw an orc in something as a teenager I instantly gravitated towards playing them, if possible.
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Dec 21, 2022 05:47
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Fsmhunk posted:I always found the idea that Orcs were supposed to be an unflattering potryal of other races weird, are D&D Orcs not meant to be cool? I don't see a big grey dude with tusks riding a wolf and think 'What a savage!' I think 'Hell yes!' I have no doubt that they were MEANT to be racist, but it backfired in my case since every time I saw an orc in something as a teenager I instantly gravitated towards playing them, if possible. Yeah orcs are cool, I usually play a half orc or a minotaur because I like big bad monster men
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Dec 21, 2022 05:58
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"in my fantasy game limited only by my imagination, i want to play a pale, pink, weak human". completely deranged
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Dec 21, 2022 06:06
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