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Your kitten is going to massacre native wildlife for fun, and probably going to get sick and hurt a lot, and almost certainly is going to die in under five years. Assuming someone doesn't just wisely kidnap it and give it a better, purely indoors life. Do not let your cats outside.
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Dec 21, 2022 13:34
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They do massacre wildlife but you must live in either some wilderness hellscape or the middle of Manhatten if your outdoor cats get hurt a lot or die in 5 years.
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Dec 21, 2022 13:40
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So, I've posted a fair amount about our two boys Pav and Sage They've been doing great together for honestly like, 8 months or so at this point. Pav's on a diet, and sometimes can't help himself but sneak into Sage's food bowl when the feeder is open (though weirdly I think he's just looking for food that Sage has dropped to eat, because he never seems to actually eat out of the bowl, just stare at it), they wrestle but it basically never ends in hisses anymore and so honestly they're just doing great We've got a big trip that we've been planning for a little over a year coming up in March, in addition to travelling for a few days for the holidays. We use a cat sitter rather than trying to board them because it's just much easier and less stressful for everyone involved, but Sage is still absolutely terrified of anybody but us. As soon as he hears a car that he thinks is going to result in someone coming in, or god forbid someone rings the doorbell, he runs as fast as his little kitty legs will take him upstairs to burrow himself under the covers or hide behind the bed until they leave. It's not really a huge deal, and he always comes out as soon as he's sure they're gone, but I'm a little worried about our trip in March because we'll be gone for a few weeks The last time we had to travel for family stuff it was fine. The cat sitter never saw him, but he was eating his food and stuff. They both have chip feeders so he's the only one that could've eaten it after all. But I can't help but worry a little bit that if he were to get sick or hurt or something the cat sitter would never know because of his hiding and scaredy-cat ways. Anyone have any experience getting a cat used to strangers, or at least not so terrified of them? It seems like that's just how he is I guess, plus we picked him up during the height of the pandemic so he's just grown up with no one ever being around but us. But it'd be great if at least he'd let the cat sitter see him, just in case!
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Dec 21, 2022 13:51
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Yeah, it really all depends. If OP lives in a US suburb wedged between an 8 lane highway and a primordial forest full of coyotes and rare birds, he definitely shouldn't let his cat out ever. If it's a picturesque Dutch village founded in 867 CE, you should still be aware that letting cats out has a lot of problems, but it's also a perfectly normal thing to do and most well cared for cats live to a pretty normal lifespan even if they have outdoor access. ETA: if you're hell bent on letting the cat out, I'd still recommend waiting until she's at least a year old. That way she'll be accustomed to indoor life and might not roam and hunt so much. Our cat doesn't get to go outside (other than occasionally on a leash), and when she was 2 years old a bird flew into our flat and she didn't know what to do with it at all. pidan fucked around with this message at 14:00 on Dec 21, 2022 |
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Dec 21, 2022 13:52
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Cythereal posted:Your kitten is going to massacre native wildlife for fun, and probably going to get sick and hurt a lot, and almost certainly is going to die in under five years. This is an extremely dumb take
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Dec 21, 2022 14:05
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knox_harrington posted:This is an extremely dumb take Actually every statement in it is true. Cats should not be allowed to free roam.. they massacre wildlife. At least in the US there's a growing sentiment to outlaw it. And if there's any coyotes around they will probably get eaten.
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Dec 21, 2022 14:11
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Even taken on the face of it the lifespan and "constant pain" statements are totally wrong. I have sympathy for the wildlife issue, which will be a few mice on past experience. No coyotes or significant dangerous animals here (some eagles and wolves but way up in the mountains). Seriously if you mentally translate "average 5 years" to "will die in 5 years" you need to go to a night school for some remedial teaching. And that is ignoring the effects of location, they are likely to live a good long life here in the spruce forest at the edge of the village. I can see y'all want to crimp off some steaming zingers on your topic du jour but if you don't know or won't give the answer I'll look it up elsewhere.
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Dec 21, 2022 14:18
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knox_harrington posted:Even taken on the face of it the lifespan and "constant pain" statements are totally wrong. I have sympathy for the wildlife issue, which will be a few mice on past experience. No coyotes or significant dangerous animals here (some eagles and wolves but way up in the mountains). 'Dumb' doesn't mean 'not telling knox harrington what they want to hear.' If you're not worried about cars or predators (and you don't need to have highways and wolves for those to be risks), there's still the risks of 1) other dogs and cats attacking out of territoriality or prey drive, 2) parasites, 3) disease, 4) getting lost and just....not coming back, 5) getting injured and being unable to come home for help, 6) poisons and traps put out for pest animals, 7) eating an animal that has been exposed to pesticides, 8) being adopted by someone else and just...never coming home, and 9) being killed by a human for making GBS threads in their garden. Teach the kitten to tolerate a leash instead. Or build a catio. Or go for walks in strollers. Or do basic enrichment inside.
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Dec 21, 2022 14:36
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Don't let your cat/cats outside.
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Dec 21, 2022 14:37
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Dienes posted:'Dumb' doesn't mean 'not telling knox harrington what they want to hear.' Correct, but it does cover making stupid nonsense up like they will definitely die in 5 years. I do appreciate the well meaning advice where given, even though it's not on the subject I was asking. The hyperbolic stuff less so.
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Dec 21, 2022 14:53
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knox_harrington posted:This is an extremely dumb take Big birds, like great horned owls, can and will take domestic cats - especially kittens. There are people who will kill feral cats, especially people who own livestock like chickens that cats will actively seek out and kill. Cats especially love to massacre small birds. Disease and poisons are rife outdoors, such as if your cat kills and eats a mouse or bird that had been poisoned by vermicides or ate something with herbicides. Those chemicals don't just go away from the digestive tract. There are people who will kidnap your cat. You are objectively giving your cat a shorter, worse life by letting them outdoors. knox_harrington posted:Correct, but it does cover making stupid nonsense up like they will definitely die in 5 years. You are going to get your cat hurt and probably killed. If you care about your cat, keep it indoors.
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Dec 21, 2022 15:05
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Why exactly are you so opposed to the cat being indoor only?
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Dec 21, 2022 15:09
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Cythereal posted:Big birds, like great horned owls, can and will take domestic cats - especially kittens. About 6 years ago, my roommate's cat was lounging around on a 3rd floor balcony with no real trees nearby, and had a large bird tried to nab her, and she was a cat of above average size. Luckily she could move and managed to run inside. People forget just how big birds can get until they see one up close. You see a Great Horned Owl in a book, and it looks like a bird, you actually see one in a tree, and that's a whole different story (my roommate thought I was being a weirdo and making the "whoo whoo whoo" sound, until I made her go look at it with me).
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Dec 21, 2022 15:28
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Pollyanna posted:Why exactly are you so opposed to the cat being indoor only? Cats really really like being outdoors, my other cat already goes outdoors, I don't live somewhere that has Great Cat-Eating Owls, and most importantly I don't need goon permission to do something totally normal and pretty safe in the area I live.
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Dec 21, 2022 16:13
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knox_harrington posted:Cats really really like being outdoors, my other cat already goes outdoors, I don't live somewhere that has Great Cat-Eating Owls, and most importantly I don't need goon permission to do something totally normal and pretty safe in the area I live. Congratulations on giving your cats shorter, more painful lives assuming someone doesn't just decide hey, free kitty. Just because it's normal doesn't mean it's right.
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Dec 21, 2022 16:15
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It's also becoming less normal. People are waking up to how destructive cats are.
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Dec 21, 2022 16:24
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Cythereal posted:Congratulations on giving your cats shorter, more painful lives assuming someone doesn't just decide hey, free kitty. Congratulations on your elementary school level of mathematics
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Dec 21, 2022 16:34
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knox_harrington posted:Cats really really like being outdoors, my other cat already goes outdoors, I don't live somewhere that has Great Cat-Eating Owls, and most importantly I don't need goon permission to do something totally normal and pretty safe in the area I live. Toddlers really really like ice cream but that doesn't mean it's a good idea to make that their diet. There are ways to give your cat outdoor access without the risk, but that involves a slight amount of effort you don't seem willing to make.
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Dec 21, 2022 16:39
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knox_harrington posted:Congratulations on your elementary school level of mathematics "thread, give me advice" "here's some advice" "no, not like that"
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Dec 21, 2022 16:40
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Why even have a cat if you're just going to put it outside?
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Dec 21, 2022 16:41
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I think he's got the message that thread consensus is don't let your cat outside. Cats generally want to go outside and it's incredibly common to let them. Pretty much every cat I've known was allowed to go outside unless it was either some fancy expensive cat that would get stolen or the owner lived in a city apartment where there was no direct access to the outside and there were roads and cars all about. I do agree it's best not to let cats out, but acting totally incredulous that someone might do it is very weird to me. Unless the people posting are from places like Australia and New Zealand where there are legitimately very good reasons to never let any cat outside.
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Dec 21, 2022 16:46
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Didn't expect to walk into this poo poo this morning..... Deliberately obstinate idiot: What are best practices for letting this young kitten start going outside? Goons: There aren't best practices, here are facts about why you shouldn't do that. Same idiot: I DON'T CARE CATS LIKE IT OUTSIDE. Speaking as a former vet tech, if you bring your injured or sick cat in we always ask, "Do you let your cat outside?" When you answer "yes" you confirm in everyone's mind at that practice that you don't actually care about that cat's wellbeing. It also makes their jobs infinitely harder because you will inevitably answer "I have no idea, they're outside all day so I don't see them" to every important question necessary to treating your cat quickly and accurately. Even beyond the increased risk, when anything does inevitably happen, your cat is far less likely to receive treatment quickly (often they'll simply be too ill or hurt to make it home and just vanish, or at best treatment is delayed), and you won't have any idea what happened but still expect the vet to work miracles. knox_harrington posted:Cats really really like being outdoors, my other cat already goes outdoors, I don't live somewhere that has Great Cat-Eating Owls, and most importantly I don't need goon permission to do something totally normal and pretty safe in the area I live. And you are being 100% deliberately stupid about this. People are presenting you with actual facts and information about why this is dangerous for your cat, and you're basically imitating every manbaby since 2020 whining about how "you don't tell me what to to" being more important than the science. I don't know wtf you expected coming into this thread trying to claim you live in a magic bubble where there is no wildlife for your cat to kill, as if squirrels, raccoons, possums, other assorted rodents, and hundreds of species of bird (to name just the obvious tip of the wildlife iceberg) don't exist. My father insisted our cats loved being outside. The first to be hit by a car was when we lived in a semi-rural area far from any main road that got significant traffic. The last was my loving cat he let out after I left for college and he didn't feel like dealing with cat chores that I was the one to take care of previously. He backed over my cat in his own truck in our driveway, no busy road crammed with cars necessary. He had done the same thing to my dog when I was in the 6th grade and was paranoid about doing it again and it still happened. Unequivocally, if you are letting your cats outside, you should not have cats. No one's saying they will absolutely die next week, that's your own reductio ad absurdum, but you are significantly decreasing your cat's expected lifespan because it is orders of magnitude more dangerous outside for them, because I suspect you just don't want to deal with scooping litter boxes and are saying "but they like it out there" as an excuse. That's how "average lifespan" works: For every cat that makes it to 18 as an outdoor cat, 10 more die before they hit 1 year. You're going to have no problems until suddenly you have a big loving problem.....do you also not bother wearing a seatbelt until you've already been thrown through the windshield? If your cats like being outside you build them a catio or take them out on a harness, you don't just say "gently caress it, what happens happens", you lazy, irresponsible rear end.
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Dec 21, 2022 16:48
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Dienes posted:Toddlers really really like ice cream but that doesn't mean it's a good idea to make that their diet. "What age can I give my toddler a taste of ice cream?" "If you give your toddler ANY ice cream it will DIE" In the city my cats only go on the terrace, which is netted so they can't come to any harm. The level of danger is way way lower up here in Valais, there's no traffic and the nearest great horned owls are thousands of kilometers away. I suppose she could get trodden on by a cow. I get that it is trendy in the US to only keep cats indoors, but the dangers are clearly very different. This conversation is incredibly lacking in nuance and contains a lot of dumbass hyperbole.
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Dec 21, 2022 16:54
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pidan posted:I think he's got the message that thread consensus is don't let your cat outside. I doubt it's the consensus. The anti-outdoors group is just a lot more emotional and yells louder. The rest of us just roll our eyes and let you vent.
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Dec 21, 2022 16:55
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knox_harrington posted:and the nearest great horned owls are thousands of kilometers away. So you have Eurasian eagle owls instead, which are even bigger than great horned owls.
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Dec 21, 2022 16:57
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Deteriorata posted:I doubt it's the consensus. The anti-outdoors group is just a lot more emotional and yells louder. The rest of us just roll our eyes and let you vent. Or we're the ones who can cite facts, studies, and data while the other side seems to have "but cats like it outside". knox_harrington posted:"What age can I give my toddler a taste of ice cream?" Keep setting up straw-men to knock down. Just lol at "it's trendy" as your perceived reason people are presenting you with these pesky facts.
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Dec 21, 2022 17:00
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BaronVonVaderham posted:Didn't expect to walk into this poo poo this morning..... Lol your own examples solely consist of your father reversing over your pets. Maybe take better care of them? I quoted a particular poster saying the cat will definitely die within five years. It's total nonsense. Frankly 2020 was an excellent demonstration that average Americans are totally unable to understand data and, as a scientist, that is backed up ITT.
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Dec 21, 2022 17:01
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Are they safer inside? Yes Are they thinking feeling animals who it’s arguably unethical to basically imprison away from nature? Also yes Should you not have indoor cats? No my cat is indoor
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Dec 21, 2022 17:08
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BaronVonVaderham posted:Keep setting up straw-men to knock down. Better add remedial reading comprehension to the remedial mathematics Dienes posted:Toddlers really really like ice cream but that doesn't mean it's a good idea to make that their diet.
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Dec 21, 2022 17:09
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knox_harrington posted:Better add remedial reading comprehension to the remedial mathematics knox_harrington posted:"What age can I give my toddler a taste of ice cream?" Or you're setting up a straw-man by putting words in someone else's mouth. What was actually said: Dienes posted:Toddlers really really like ice cream but that doesn't mean it's a good idea to make that their diet. But you decided "this person said if you feed a toddelr ANY ice cream it will DIE" because that is an easy straw-man for you to do battle with as it is absurd. That's what a straw-man argument is. Since you love flinging around recommendations for remedial courses instead of making any statements of substance, maybe you should look into basic logic and reading comprehension for yourself. knox_harrington posted:Lol your own examples solely consist of your father reversing over your pets. Maybe take better care of them? I'll get right on that when I was 10 years old and living 1300 miles away from said pet respectively  . Or you can stop twisting what everyone says into what's easiest for you to be flippant about, but thank you for trying to make this personal and flinging the tragic deaths of my pets back at me and implying it's directly my fault it happened. That says way more about you and what your "arguments" are worth than I ever could.And, to clear up another deliberate misreading, you'll note that the first example I gave did not involve my father. My mother's cat was hit in the road in front of our house when I was 6. I brought up my dog to emphasize that this type of accident happens even if you are more vigilant than most about that possibility. My point, that you're deliberately missing, was that it's another risk that is present that hadn't been touched on. You don't need to be in a metropolis for that to happen, as someone else had said in alluding to how cats shouldn't be getting hurt unless you live in "some sort of wilderness or Manhattan". It's ironic that you say "maybe take better care of them" when in all 3 cases the way to take better care of them was to not let them run free outdoors, but I'm guessing that is going to sail over your head even when explicitly spelled out for you like this. knox_harrington posted:Frankly 2020 was an excellent demonstration that average Americans are totally unable to understand data and, as a scientist, that is backed up ITT. So, as a self-proclaimed scientist you should know how to do even a cursory literature search to learn about this topic and make an informed decision. Instead, you're going with "this is what other people do and the cats like it". That's certainly a choice. Anyway, it's clearly you value "don't tell me what to do" over pesky things like facts, there's zero chance we're going to convince you to not be a moron, so I'm done engaging. Have a nice life, dumbass.
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Dec 21, 2022 17:44
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tl;dr Deteriorata posted:I doubt it's the consensus. The anti-outdoors group is just a lot more emotional and yells louder. The rest of us just roll our eyes and let you vent.  I see this topic is specifically called out in the forum rules as contentious. Sorry about that. I wasn't aware of that because, y'know, it is totally normal here in the Swiss countryside.
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Dec 21, 2022 18:48
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knox_harrington posted:tl;dr Maybe you should try to fix your problems with reading comprehension
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Dec 21, 2022 19:03
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knox_harrington posted:tl;dr The motto of anyone calling themselves a scientist 
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Dec 21, 2022 19:07
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I'll ask again, why even get a cat if you're just going to put it outside?
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Dec 21, 2022 19:11
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this is urgent! somebody get an unemployed vet tech!!!
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Dec 21, 2022 19:12
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At least it's not a maremma that's going to end up biting a kid this time?
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Dec 21, 2022 19:14
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knox_harrington posted:this is urgent! somebody get an unemployed vet tech!!! Interestingly, I’ve never met an “unemployed” vet tech, but I’ve met a lot of former vet techs. Evidently it is an incredibly depressing and stressful job (and has a disproportionately high suicide rate). Not really sure why you’re antagonizing vets but you do you fam
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Dec 21, 2022 19:28
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You are incredibly bad at inferring meaning. A former vet tech is not a vet tech. A vet tech is not a veterinarian. It's like someone who once worked in a pharmacy holding forth on, idk, covid transmission. You desperately want to squeeze out more steaming hot thousand word posts, go ahead, I already know your position and I'm not going to read em.
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Dec 21, 2022 19:34
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Crocobile posted:Interestingly, I’ve never met an “unemployed” vet tech, but I’ve met a lot of former vet techs. Evidently it is an incredibly depressing and stressful job (and has a disproportionately high suicide rate). Yeah that job legit hosed me up and is incredibly rough. I could not have done it for more than the couple of years I did, I don't handle animal death well and was assigned to most of the euthanasia cases because I was the one who could remain stoic until my shift ended. The pay is also abysmal for how hard it is. Funny how the go-to "insult" of people like that is "unemployed", though. knox_harrington posted:You are incredibly bad at inferring meaning. A former vet tech is not a vet tech. A vet tech is not a veterinarian. It's like someone who once worked in a pharmacy holding forth on, idk, covid transmission. Just lol at you trying to call anyone out on this specifically. You're just determined to "argue" by attacking people personally and twisting their words to say something we did not actually say.
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Dec 21, 2022 19:43
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xzzy posted:Actually every statement in it is true. Cats should not be allowed to free roam.. they massacre wildlife. At least in the US there's a growing sentiment to outlaw it. So. I know what I'll do for the safety and happiness of my pets. In particular, I've had indoor-outdoor (because of bad pee habits) and indoor-only cats, and I can detect no difference in happiness. But the tradeoffs are different when you aren't worrying about coyotes and interstates.
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Dec 21, 2022 19:50
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