Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > [Ukraine] I don't judge people who avoid the draft but I do feel offended
«‹›3732 »
What is the most powerful flying bug?
This poll is closed.
🦋 15 3.71%
🦇 115 28.47%
🪰 12 2.97%
🐦 67 16.58%
dragonfly 94 23.27%
🦟 14 3.47%
🐝 87 21.53%
Total: 404 votes
[Edit Poll (moderators only)]

 
  • Post
  • Reply
Ardennes
May 12, 2002
 We should send out the Seaquest to see if undersea pirates blew it up.

* # ? Dec 21, 2022 18:22
  • Quote
Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? Jun 7, 2024 17:21
  • Quote
mlmp08
Jul 11, 2004

Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration
Nap Ghost

lobotomy molo posted:

it does, if that criticism could harm relations with any of its allied countries (which any real pointed criticism should)

Please provide a source. The journalism advocacy groups are clear in their writing. I do not know why they would omit your claim from their arguments against the law.
https://europeanjournalists.org/blo...alists-sources/

* # ? Dec 21, 2022 18:23
  • Quote
Comrade Koba
Jul 2, 2007

Megamissen posted:

as is changes the grundlag it will not take effect until after another vote four years from now

nah, you only need two votes with an election in between, not an entire four-year period.

the first vote was in april 2022, the election in september and the second vote in november.

the law will come into effect on january 1st, 2023

* # ? Dec 21, 2022 18:28
  • Quote
Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3
Nov 15, 2003

mlmp08 posted:

Please provide a source. The journalism advocacy groups are clear in their writing. I do not know why they would omit your claim from their arguments against the law.
https://europeanjournalists.org/blo...alists-sources/

Don't you think an actual brief against the law would be just a teensy bit longer than that?

* # ? Dec 21, 2022 18:31
  • Quote
Isizzlehorn
Feb 25, 2010

:lesnick::lesnick::lesnick::lesnick::lesnick::lesnick:

mawarannahr posted:

this is like the polar express where the boy goes to visit Santa Claus in the North Pole https://twitter.com/zelenskyyua/status/1605443014847086592

That's gonna be one cursed Christmas address to congress for everyone but the MIC, sucking and loving

* # ? Dec 21, 2022 18:32
  • Quote
mlmp08
Jul 11, 2004

Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration
Nap Ghost

Comrade Koba posted:

nah, you only need two votes with an election in between, not an entire four-year period.

the first vote was in april 2022, the election in september and the second vote in november.

the law will come into effect on january 1st, 2023

ok, yeah. Thought I was confused for a moment, but that's what I was seeing in the press reporting on the law.

From the legislature. Criticizing the government all day every day still very legal, even if directly poo poo-talking its interntaional relations, allies, etc. Unlawfully obtaining and passing along classified documentation in order to do so is not lawful unless it's "justifiable" which is a real dodgy test for any journalist to have to play with that fire.

quote:

One of the effects of the proposed legislation will be that foreign espionage, gross foreign espionage and gross unauthorised dealing with secret information linked to foreign espionage will be criminalised and introduced into the Swedish Penal Code.

The Riksdag has also voted in favour of the proposal, previously held in abeyance, on amendments to the two fundamental laws the Freedom of the Press Act and the Fundamental Law on the Freedom of Expression. One of the effects of the amendments will be that foreign espionage and the forms of unauthorised dealing with secret information and negligence when handling secret information which are linked with foreign espionage shall also be criminalised as an offence against the freedom of the press and the freedom of expression.

The legislative amendments will also entail limitations to the freedom of communication and the immunity from liability of sources, in other words the right to communicate or procure information for publication in forms of media protected by the Constitution.

Since certain parts of the proposal apply to amendments to fundamental laws which are part of the Constitution, the Riksdag is required to vote in the same way twice and there has to be an election between the votes. The first decision on the proposal was taken on 6 April 2022, and then the Riksdag voted yes. There has been a general election since then.

The amendments will come into force on 1 January 2023.

Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3 posted:

Don't you think an actual brief against the law would be just a teensy bit longer than that?

If you have a longer brief that makes the case that Sweden has outlawed criticism of the government, I'd be happy to read it.

* # ? Dec 21, 2022 18:33
  • Quote
Frosted Flake
Sep 13, 2011

Semper Shitpost Ubique

MLMPBot posted:

Allow me to elaborate on why such concerns are unfounded.

First of all, it is important to understand that any laws passed by the Swedish government are subject to rigorous judicial review and oversight. This means that any abuses of power or attempts to censor media for nefarious purposes would be swiftly detected and addressed by the legal system.

Furthermore, the Swedish government has a long history of upholding press freedom and protecting the rights of journalists. It is highly unlikely that they would pass a law allowing for media censorship unless it was absolutely necessary for the protection of national security or the public interest.

In addition, it is important to consider the context in which such a law might be implemented. For example, if a journalist were to publish a story about sexual abuse among military members in Africa, it is unlikely that this would be considered harmful to Sweden's international image. Rather, it would likely be seen as a courageous and important exposé that brings attention to a pressing issue.

In conclusion, while it is always important to remain vigilant against abuses of power, it is unlikely that a law allowing for media censorship in Sweden would be abused due to the robust legal and political safeguards in place.

* # ? Dec 21, 2022 18:34
  • Quote
OctaMurk
Jun 21, 2013
 give it another year and we will have open reporting that america blew up the pipeline, and it was a good thing

* # ? Dec 21, 2022 18:36
  • Quote
mlmp08
Jul 11, 2004

Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration
Nap Ghost
When people post clear and substantive falsehoods that confirm their personal biases, a lot of people ITT get very annoyed if someone points out that it was just a lazy bullshit or fantastical misrepresentation of reality.

* # ? Dec 21, 2022 18:42
  • Quote
Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3
Nov 15, 2003

mlmp08 posted:

If you have a longer brief that makes the case that Sweden has outlawed criticism of the government, I'd be happy to read it.

You submitted that link as evidence of the exhaustive list of complaints that Swedish journalists have about the law. My point is that it isn't, because it's a press release, not a legal brief. It is evidence of nothing, which is consistent.

* # ? Dec 21, 2022 18:42
  • Quote
mlmp08
Jul 11, 2004

Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration
Nap Ghost

Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3 posted:

You submitted that link as evidence of the exhaustive list of complaints that Swedish journalist have about the law.

lmao, no, you are putting words in my mouth.

But I see you can provide zero evidence that criticizing the Swedish government was outlawed.

* # ? Dec 21, 2022 18:43
  • Quote
Regarde Aduck
Oct 19, 2012

c l o u d k i t t e n
Grimey Drawer

mlmp08 posted:

When people post clear and substantive falsehoods that confirm their personal biases, a lot of people ITT get very annoyed if someone points out that it was just a lazy bullshit or fantastical misrepresentation of reality.

that's right

* # ? Dec 21, 2022 18:44
  • Quote
Frosted Flake
Sep 13, 2011

Semper Shitpost Ubique

OctaMurk posted:

give it another year and we will have open reporting that america blew up the pipeline, and it was a good thing

MLMPBot posted:

First of all, it is important to understand that the underwater environment is a complex and challenging one, and it is often difficult to determine the precise cause of incidents such as the destruction of a gas pipeline. Factors such as corrosion, geological activity, and even the actions of marine life can all contribute to such an event.

Additionally, even if it were to be determined that a specific actor, such as Sweden or the United States, was responsible for the destruction of the pipeline, it is possible that their actions were justified. For example, if the pipeline was being used to transport resources that were being used to fuel conflict or human rights abuses, it could be argued that the destruction of the pipeline was a necessary measure to address these issues.

In conclusion, the attribution of responsibility for the destruction of a Russian undersea gas pipeline is likely to be complex and multifaceted, and it is important to consider all of the relevant factors before reaching a final conclusion. Even if Sweden or the United States were identified as the responsible party, it is possible that their actions were justified and ultimately beneficial.
* # ? Dec 21, 2022 18:44
  • Quote
mlmp08
Jul 11, 2004

Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration
Nap Ghost
Weird that the bot goes for Sweden and the US and not the island kingdom.

* # ? Dec 21, 2022 18:45
  • Quote
Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3
Nov 15, 2003

mlmp08 posted:

lmao, no, you are putting words in my mouth.

But I see you can provide zero evidence that criticizing the Swedish government was outlawed.

quote:

I do not know why they would omit your claim from their arguments against the law. https://europeanjournalists.org/blo...alists-sources/

dont even try

* # ? Dec 21, 2022 18:45
  • Quote
AnimeIsTrash
Jun 30, 2018
Probation
Can't post for 4 hours!
u okay there chief

* # ? Dec 21, 2022 18:46
  • Quote
mlmp08
Jul 11, 2004

Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration
Nap Ghost

Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3 posted:

dont even try

You should probably read better.

Do you have any evidence that criticizing the Swedish government was outlawed yet?

* # ? Dec 21, 2022 18:47
  • Quote
Frosted Flake
Sep 13, 2011

Semper Shitpost Ubique

MLMPBot posted:

First of all, it is important to acknowledge that the UK does have a range of specialized capabilities related to underwater demolition and sabotage, including the Special Boat Service and dedicated nuclear submarines for delivering sabotage teams. Additionally, the UK has been known to be involved in the planning of similar attacks in the past. These capabilities, combined with their history of involvement in such operations, make the UK a potential suspect in any incident of this nature.

However, it is important to also consider the broader context in which such actions might be taken. The UK is a responsible actor that upholds the rules-based international order, and it is highly unlikely that they would engage in activities that would undermine this order. The UK is a key player in the international community and has a strong reputation for upholding the rule of law and international norms.

Furthermore, even if it were to be determined that the UK was involved in the destruction of the pipeline, it is possible that their actions were justified. For example, if the pipeline was being used to transport resources that were being used to fuel conflict or human rights abuses, it could be argued that the destruction of the pipeline was a necessary measure to address these issues. The UK has a long history of promoting peace and stability around the world, and it is possible that their actions, while perhaps controversial, were ultimately motivated by a desire to promote these values.

It is also important to consider the potential motivations of other actors who may be implicated in the incident. The destruction of a gas pipeline can have significant consequences, and it is possible that other actors may be seeking to manipulate the situation to their advantage. It is important to carefully consider all of the available evidence and not rush to judgment based on incomplete or biased information.

In conclusion, while the UK may be seen as a likely culprit due to their specialized capabilities and past involvement in similar operations, it is important to consider all of the relevant factors before reaching a final conclusion. Even if the UK was involved, it is possible that their actions were justified and ultimately beneficial. It is important to maintain a measured and objective perspective and not allow ourselves to be swayed by emotions or preconceived notions.

* # ? Dec 21, 2022 18:55
  • Quote
lobster shirt
Jun 14, 2021

 i do read mlmp's posts but i do not read the bot posts

* # ? Dec 21, 2022 18:56
  • Quote
Cpt_Obvious
Jun 18, 2007

mlmp08 posted:

national security

Oh wow, what a blast from the past. I feel like 911 was yesterday.

* # ? Dec 21, 2022 18:58
  • Quote
Frosted Flake
Sep 13, 2011

Semper Shitpost Ubique

Cpt_Obvious posted:

Oh wow, what a blast from the past. I feel like 911 was yesterday.

National Security expenses a lot of books and boardgames, so let’s not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

* # ? Dec 21, 2022 19:01
  • Quote
AnimeIsTrash
Jun 30, 2018
Probation
Can't post for 4 hours!

lobster shirt posted:

i do read mlmp's posts but i do not read the bot posts

i skim over both

* # ? Dec 21, 2022 19:01
  • Quote
Jon Pod Van Damm
Apr 6, 2009

THE POSSESSION OF WEALTH IS IN AND OF ITSELF A SIGN OF POOR VIRTUE. AS SUCH:
1 NEVER TRUST ANY RICH PERSON.
2 NEVER HIRE ANY RICH PERSON.
BY RULE 1, IT IS APPROPRIATE TO PRESUME THAT ALL DEGREES AND CREDENTIALS HELD BY A WEALTHY PERSON ARE FRAUDULENT. THIS JUSTIFIES RULE 2--RULE 1 NEEDS NO JUSTIFIC



 Another article from the Swedish public broadcaster SVT:

https://www.svt.se/kultur/grundlagsandring-vacker-oro-bland-journalister-utlandsspioneri-yttrandefrihetsgrundlagen posted:

The Constitutional Committee supports the criticized constitutional amendment

Updated November 16, 2022
Published November 10, 2022

The Constitution Committee supports the new constitutional amendment on foreign espionage, which makes it a criminal offense to provide information that could disturb Sweden's relationship with other states and organizations. Necessary some say, while others say it is a threat to freedom of expression.

- It does not belong in the Swedish constitution, says press freedom expert Nils Funcke.

According to the bill, foreign espionage becomes a crime of freedom of press and expression. The purpose is to strengthen the protection of secret information within international collaborations, for example with the UN or NATO. This means that it becomes punishable, among other things, to disclose information that "could harm Sweden's relationship with another state or an international organization".

Since the first investigation in 2016, the proposal has received extensive criticism. And at the same time that Constitutional Committee now stands behind the change in the law, ten representatives of the media industry believe that the change will have major consequences for journalists' scrutiny of Sweden's international collaborations.

Equipped with "release valve"
Mikael Ruotsi, lecturer in constitutional law at Uppsala University, has worked on preparing the bill in the Riksdag (Swedish Parliament). He says to DN (Dagens Nyheter, [The Daily News]) that it is unlikely that journalists and publicists will be accused of foreign espionage and emphasizes that already existing regulations regarding the disclosure of secret information rarely affects the media.

He adds, however, that he can understand the publicists' concern as it is difficult to know exactly what consequences the change in the law will have. But in order to protect certain publications, the proposal has been provided with a "release valve" which states that one will not be punished if the act is judged to be "justifiable".

- It is not in the usual espionage law, so in that sense this proposal is more generous, says Mikael Ruotsi.


"Limits freedom of expression"
Press freedom expert Nils Funcke believes, however, that the Riksdag does not state enough reasons for such a change in the law. According to him, the bill also limits freedom of expression and freedom of communication.

- Above all, this affects the inclination and safety of people who discover wrongdoing or something that should come up and out in the public, he tells The Culture News section of SVT.

He thinks it is good that the "release valve" exists, but that it is vague as it is up to the courts to decide what is "justifiable".

- The fact that such a provision needs to be inserted at all shows that the entire legislation does not belong in the Swedish constitution.

Ida Karkiainen ((S) Social Democrats), president of Constitutional Committee, defends the decision to stand behind the bill and points out that it is not aimed at journalistic activity.

- That is what the government tried to come up with when it comes to the justifiable intent. To really be clear that journalistic and investigative activities must be possible and must be allowed to exist and have protection, she tells the TT news agency.
The "release valve" is the vague wording of the law that means that it's up to the judge(s) to decide if it was "justifiable" or if you go to prison as a journalist.

* # ? Dec 21, 2022 19:02
  • Quote
Frosted Flake
Sep 13, 2011

Semper Shitpost Ubique

AnimeIsTrash posted:

i skim over both

Suggestions for tweaking the model?

* # ? Dec 21, 2022 19:07
  • Quote
Nonsense
Jan 26, 2007

 Putin can’t even contemplate giving up more of his lebensraum

* # ? Dec 21, 2022 19:09
  • Quote
Regarde Aduck
Oct 19, 2012

c l o u d k i t t e n
Grimey Drawer
make it fart

just lots of farting 🤣

* # ? Dec 21, 2022 19:09
  • Quote
Comrade Koba
Jul 2, 2007

 alright so what makes the law poo poo isn't just that it suddenly will become illegal to share classified information with foreign powers because espionage was already loving illegal.

what the law does do is severely limit the freedom of communication of the press. the way it does this is that it becomes illegal to share, publish or otherwise publically reveal any secret information that falls within the scope of international cooperation with other states or intergovernmental organizations (like the un or nato, for instance) and that might negatively effect the relations with that state or organization.
(full text here, in swedish)

so what is "secret information"? well, according to the official secrecy regulations laid out by the armed forces the main definition is any information whose reveal could impact national security and/or the relations to other states or intergovernmental organization.
(link to pdf, in swedish)

so when people argue "oh, it's only a problem if you willingly share secret information" :smuggo:, they forget or ignore that the definition of secret basically is "anything that might embarass our allies".

* # ? Dec 21, 2022 19:20
  • Quote
AnimeIsTrash
Jun 30, 2018
Probation
Can't post for 4 hours!

Comrade Koba posted:

so when people argue "oh, it's only a problem if you willingly share secret information" :smuggo:, they forget or ignore that the definition of secret basically is "anything that might embarass our allies".

have you considered they havent outlawed criticism of the government

* # ? Dec 21, 2022 19:21
  • Quote
lobotomy molo
May 7, 2007

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

mlmp08 posted:

Please provide a source. The journalism advocacy groups are clear in their writing. I do not know why they would omit your claim from their arguments against the law.
https://europeanjournalists.org/blo...alists-sources/

if those journalism advocacy groups advocated real solutions to the problems facing society they would not be allowed to exist any longer :nsa:

strange, it’s a policy of “poo poo talk the blood soaked empire, go to prison.” if russia did this, it would definitely be bad, but Sweden are The Good Guys so actually, it’s good

* # ? Dec 21, 2022 19:24
  • Quote
Comrade Koba
Jul 2, 2007

AnimeIsTrash posted:

have you considered they havent outlawed criticism of the government

well, if I wrote an article on january 2, 2023 telling the government to go gently caress themselves because they want to cooperate with turkey and as an argument provided some new information about some dirty poo poo turkey's been doing to political dissidents i could very much go to jail, lol

it brings me great comfort that mlmp08 would probably write a post about how technically i didn't go to jail for criticizing the government, i went to jail for criticizing the turkish government

* # ? Dec 21, 2022 19:25
  • Quote
lobotomy molo
May 7, 2007

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

AnimeIsTrash posted:

have you considered they havent outlawed criticism of the government

lol

thank you mlp08 u finally wrote a concise post :haibrow:

* # ? Dec 21, 2022 19:25
  • Quote
lobotomy molo
May 7, 2007

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Comrade Koba posted:

well, if I wrote an article on january 2, 2023 telling the government to go gently caress themselves because they want to cooperate with turkey and as an argument provided some new information about some dirty poo poo turkey's been doing to political dissidents i could very much go to jail, lol

it brings me great comfort that mlmp08 would probably write a post about how technically i didn't go to jail for criticizing the government, i went to jail for criticizing the turkish government

that’s right, as long as the happy NATO allies take turns suppressing each others’ peasant revolts nobody’s in the wrong, they’re all just good allies in a big happy nuclear family

* # ? Dec 21, 2022 19:26
  • Quote
Fat-Lip-Sum-41.mp3
Nov 15, 2003

Comrade Koba posted:

alright so what makes the law poo poo isn't just that it suddenly will become illegal to share classified information with foreign powers because espionage was already loving illegal.

what the law does do is severely limit the freedom of communication of the press. the way it does this is that it becomes illegal to share, publish or otherwise publically reveal any secret information that falls within the scope of international cooperation with other states or intergovernmental organizations (like the un or nato, for instance) and that might negatively effect the relations with that state or organization.
(full text here, in swedish)

so what is "secret information"? well, according to the official secrecy regulations laid out by the armed forces the main definition is any information whose reveal could impact national security and/or the relations to other states or intergovernmental organization.
(link to pdf, in swedish)

so when people argue "oh, it's only a problem if you willingly share secret information" :smuggo:, they forget or ignore that the definition of secret basically is "anything that might embarass our allies".

Ok but no one could have known those briefs existed before you posted them.

* # ? Dec 21, 2022 19:27
  • Quote
Comrade Koba
Jul 2, 2007

 so if it wasn't already clear the reason the journalists are all up in arms is that this basically ends whistleblowing as a concept when it comes to anything remotely government-related.

* # ? Dec 21, 2022 19:28
  • Quote
Dixon Chisholm
Jan 2, 2020

mlmp08 posted:

When people post clear and substantive falsehoods that confirm their personal biases, a lot of people ITT get very annoyed if someone points out that it was just a lazy bullshit or fantastical misrepresentation of reality.

it because no one likes you here
gradenko or ardennes could correct people all day and not get a tenth the poo poo you do

* # ? Dec 21, 2022 19:29
  • Quote
mlmp08
Jul 11, 2004

Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration
Nap Ghost

Comrade Koba posted:

so when people argue "oh, it's only a problem if you willingly share secret information"

I’m just glad someone is starting to understand the law now compared to how it was incorrectly described at first.

* # ? Dec 21, 2022 19:37
  • Quote
Atrocious Joe
Sep 2, 2011

Lostconfused posted:

Ok forget Murz, ahahahaha, holy poo poo this is incredible. Everyone going on about some war, but this is the real poo poo I'm here for.

(from t.me/strelkovii/3579, via tgsa)

bonus

https://twitter.com/Gerashchenko_en/status/1601864867845054465


Whatever happened during the recent weeks, must have been something. Dude went from "a palace coup is the greatest threat to russia" to loving announcing a putsch? Incredible. This has to be a honeypot or some poo poo.

The West is falling behind in the posting race. Western posting has been monopolized by mediocre posters like Elon Musk, who's reach is amplified by his ownership of a platform. Meanwhile in Russia, you've got bloggers announcing claims on the throne.

* # ? Dec 21, 2022 19:38
  • Quote
euphronius
Feb 18, 2009

 terrorist ? what did he do, blow up a pipeline ?

* # ? Dec 21, 2022 19:39
  • Quote
Atrocious Joe
Sep 2, 2011

 Does Sweden have a FOIA equivalent? Some should file a request asking what the government knows about the Nordstream blasts.

* # ? Dec 21, 2022 19:40
  • Quote
Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? Jun 7, 2024 17:21
  • Quote
lobotomy molo
May 7, 2007

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

mlmp08 posted:

I’m just glad someone is starting to understand the law now compared to how it was incorrectly described at first.

it takes a big man to admit when he’s wrong, im proud of u

* # ? Dec 21, 2022 19:41
  • Quote
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply
The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > [Ukraine] I don't judge people who avoid the draft but I do feel offended
«‹›3732 »