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Power prices are going to keep going up and that's what often makes old hardware not worth using. Even with current prices it's pretty easy to wind up spending $30-40/yr extra on electricity and that can make it so you're better off going with something newer.
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Dec 15, 2022 01:56
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K8.0 posted:Power prices are going to keep going up and that's what often makes old hardware not worth using. Even with current prices it's pretty easy to wind up spending $30-40/yr extra on electricity and that can make it so you're better off going with something newer. Most things after Nehalem/Phenom II will essentially be the same as modern CPUs at idle or surfing loads from my measurements with a killawatt, the exceptions being the old budget parts with fixed clocks and any of the HEDT platforms that love to suck 100w at idle for no reason. Most things on my bench are in the 50w idle range with a 960, including the latest and greatest stuff. If you really want to cut wattage and get to those sub-20w idle draw numbers, you'll be moving to purpose built platforms and cutting things like SATA drives and dGPUs. For a static task or performance level, modern platforms are hugely more efficient. But for something that spends a lot of time sitting at idle, like most peoples Posting Rig or an HTPC/NAS/Seedbox, there won't be any difference at all (and maybe even an increase). The spinning rust in the NAS/Seedbox setups suck more power than everything else combined. And for GPUs, basically the only modern things you can buy in the same power consumption range as a lot of old GPUs are the 6400 or 6500XT. Even a 3050 will pull 130W+.
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Dec 15, 2022 03:20
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Cygni posted:Most things after Nehalem/Phenom II will essentially be the same as modern CPUs at idle or surfing loads from my measurements with a killawatt, the exceptions being the old budget parts with fixed clocks and any of the HEDT platforms that love to suck 100w at idle for no reason. Most things on my bench are in the 50w idle range with a 960, including the latest and greatest stuff. If you really want to cut wattage and get to those sub-20w idle draw numbers, you'll be moving to purpose built platforms and cutting things like SATA drives and dGPUs. What's going on with TweekTown's idle power testing? They see huge differences within a single generation's stack for idle power, which would make turning an old i9 into a NAS pretty unappealing. 240W idle on the 5800X and 11900K, what the hell. https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/9977/intel-core-i5-12600k-alder-lake-cpu/index.html#Gaming-Power-and-Final-Thoughts 
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Dec 15, 2022 03:30
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Hard to say, those aren't the results I (and most other reviews) have seen. I bet they have a board that defaults to loving with the stock power settings in order to win meaningless bar chart competitions. Insanely common on high end boards the last few gens. Ahhhh I remember when TDP meant something!!  Here's Guru3Ds, for example:  e: just realized it could be their windows power settings too. Cygni fucked around with this message at 03:44 on Dec 15, 2022 |
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Dec 15, 2022 03:37
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Cygni posted:Most things on my bench are in the 50w idle range with a 960, including the latest and greatest stuff. If you really want to cut wattage and get to those sub-20w idle draw numbers, you'll be moving to purpose built platforms and cutting things like SATA drives and dGPUs. Which is what you should do for something that's on 24/7 like a NAS.
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Dec 15, 2022 04:16
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Inept posted:Which is what you should do for something that's on 24/7 like a NAS. It really depends. The lowest price 4 bay NAS on newegg is $257. You will save ~20w in use with that box, 175 kWh/year (and lose lots of nice features in those barebones NAS compared to TrueNAS or even a Windows box, but i digress). I have pretty expensive power for the US, about 25c/kWh for 100% solar, so that extra power usage costs me $43.75 per year. So it would take 6 years to pay itself off vs using castoff hardware you already own, and not be as good during those 6 years. I don't think thats worth it, but thats up to you to decide!
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Dec 15, 2022 05:33
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Idle use on a NAS is probably closer to 40-50 watts lower than an old desktop https://www.techpowerup.com/review/synology-ds920-4-bay-nas/12.html
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Dec 15, 2022 05:45
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Thats a $560 NAS, though. The cheapo NAS dont tend to be quite as efficient (or they are as efficient but comically less performant and featured), and an ITX desktop will use quite a bit less than the numbers in that Guru3D graph, too. So again, it really depends. Even if the cost was more significant, like 40w which would mean a 3 year payoff for the cheapo NAS box, the extreme flexibility and features of reused home PC makes it worth it to me vs old parts ending up in an ewaste bin and spending more money on a purpose built NAS. But to each their own.
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Dec 15, 2022 06:06
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i'm curious if people really need 24/7 compute i have a GPU compute server in a closet but i just turn it on and off using wake-on lan when I need it and it takes like 20 seconds to boot
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Dec 15, 2022 06:46
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Inept posted:Idle use on a NAS is probably closer to 40-50 watts lower than an old desktop https://www.techpowerup.com/review/synology-ds920-4-bay-nas/12.html It depends on the desktop. I have a Socket 1156-based NAS that I'd estimate uses around 30W typically for everything except the hard drives, and I'd imagine a lot of other systems that have integrated graphics can do similarly well unless they're really old or based on HEDT/server platforms. If you really care to, a lot of systems can see substantial reduction through undervolting/underclocking as well. Eletriarnation fucked around with this message at 08:20 on Dec 15, 2022 |
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Dec 15, 2022 08:17
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Even if your NAS is only using 30W DC (I assume you're summing up PMU/uProf numbers plus 5W for the ICH and adding half as much again, to arrive at that), if your PSU is only 50% efficient at the AC-DC conversion you're drawing significantly more out of the wall.
BlankSystemDaemon fucked around with this message at 09:06 on Dec 15, 2022 |
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Dec 15, 2022 09:04
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I broke it down in the NAS thread about six weeks ago, but that's measuring AC with a Kill-A-Watt and it's an 80+ Platinum supply at around 20% load so I think and really hope it's doing a lot better than 50% efficiency. Please, check my work if you feel so inclined and let me know if I missed anything. e: You actually responded to my initial statement about it, but you might have missed the follow-up. BlankSystemDaemon posted:Considering that the server's CPU is from '09, that's pretty impressive - processors back then had only very rudimentary powersaving compared to nowadays, so a new board off ebay/craigslist or their local equivalents might save you a not-inconsiderable amount of power. Eletriarnation fucked around with this message at 16:23 on Dec 15, 2022 |
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Dec 15, 2022 16:18
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drat it, quote != edit. How long has it been since I did that last...?
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Dec 15, 2022 16:19
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Eletriarnation posted:I broke it down in the NAS thread about six weeks ago, but that's measuring AC with a Kill-A-Watt and it's an 80+ Platinum supply at around 20% load so I think and really hope it's doing a lot better than 50% efficiency. Please, check my work if you feel so inclined and let me know if I missed anything. You mention you're between 70 and 80W and then mention something about spinning down disks, but I don't see anything about you having configured them to spin down. Also, it's nice that you're paying 0.10/kWh - but for large parts of the world, the cost is a LOT higher even when there aren't Russian dictatots and ultracapitalists insisting on making things worse. The cheapest rates I can get in Denmark right now, if I were to switch, is the equivalent of $0.38 - which would absolutely gently caress me over, because the minimum contract is 2 years and I'd be paying that even if the price fell after winter. If I wanted the price to be fixed but without a contract, I'd be looking at the equivalent of $0.47. And I'm pretty sure Denmark isn't even the most expensive country. Ultimately, though, my point was more that if you're running any amount of hardware for any time, the AC-DC conversion is almost always gently caress you over, especially if you're on the US grid, because being 120V means that the conversion isn't as efficient, especially because the top of the efficiency curve is at around 50-80% load. BlankSystemDaemon fucked around with this message at 19:46 on Dec 15, 2022 |
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Dec 15, 2022 19:43
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I said "with drive spin-down disabled" as in no, I have specifically configured the drives not to spin down and the 80W AC that I'm reading at the plug includes their consumption. Regarding power cost, I know that my power is cheap and I don't think I ever said or implied otherwise. I also don't disagree that the 120V mains makes a difference, although I think that difference is small enough that it is rarely going to alter your conclusion in this kind of decision. All I said is that Anandtech's 4770K system idled at 35W and my even older Xeon does ~30W, so if your "old desktop" is using 50-60 then either it's very old, poorly tuned for the purpose, or some kind of unusually inefficient platform like HEDT. Also, if your only reason to get a NAS over a desktop is power consumption you can likely still come out ahead on total cost by just buying a new platform instead of reusing your old gaming rig - I have an i5-10400 system that idles under 10W and it didn't cost nearly $560. There are other reasons to prefer a NAS and I'm not saying it's a bad decision - just that power consumption is not a strong reason to make that decision. Eletriarnation fucked around with this message at 23:13 on Dec 15, 2022 |
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Dec 15, 2022 22:10
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I realized I don't think I've ever hooked my kill-a-watt to my actual NAS box when not on my bench, so i put it on. The box is currently: i7-4790S Asrock Z97E-ITX 2x4GB DDR3 1600 2x 12TB WD HDD 1x 2TB Toshiba HDD 1x 1TB MX500 SSD Corsair SF600 2x Silent Wings 2 140mm fans With all its regular services and apps running and HDDs spinning, im getting 26 - 28w, with the cold spike on boot to 49w.  shrike82 posted:i'm curious if people really need 24/7 compute I mean, i dunno if people need much more than a library card or $150 cellphone in the modern world, so I'll just tell you what I've got runnin'. It is my seedbox for linux isos, Plex server that a few people use remotely and locally, IPTV portal, emulation station with all the regular bazillion games, NAS with scheduled network backups, Time Machine for my Macs, and via Docker, it is also my Pihole and a WireGuard server so I can do a private tunnel when I'm traveling. In Ye Olden Days, it was also my cable box and DVR via an old Ceton Cablecard tuner, but right now i'm saving the PCIe slot for an old 10Gb fiber NIC. Currently on Winders for it with WSL running Docker Desktop, but considering moving to TrueNAS wholehog. Mostly just dont want to bother learning and configuring ZFS and all the backups and such tbh. Next on the list is setting up something like Nextcloud. it has come in handy lots of times, and being able to VNC into it from my phone anywhere in the world has been super convienent to download things remotely, or pull up family photos, or whatever else. Also made me learn a lot about networking and linux and all sorts of other stuff. For 27w, I think its a great use of old parts. Cygni fucked around with this message at 23:48 on Dec 15, 2022 |
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Dec 15, 2022 23:41
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Sounds like me, I started with a "Tivo replacement" PC that used to record stuff off cable, but now ha does my smartphone and Plex and so much more. Except these days it's running a 2299G (for now) on an X570 ITX board that's better equipped than my primary PC. I'm thinking about actually removing my old ARM based specialty NAS box and going to a virtualization thing that runs OpenMediaVault for storage/ZFS in one VM and a regular Linux distro for my home server needs in another, but that's still a CPU and memory upgrade away.
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Dec 16, 2022 00:39
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that used to be more interesting to me prior to cloud drives and youtube i have gigabit internet and remoting into my box even in the same city is still slower than accessing cloud stuff
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Dec 16, 2022 00:43
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I have 150/5 and even gigabit plans come with a 1TB data cap. I also feel kind of sketch letting any other remote provider than my own home computer have a record of just how much respect and obedience there is for the DMCA 'round these parts.
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Dec 16, 2022 04:30
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shrike82 posted:that used to be more interesting to me prior to cloud drives and youtube I leave a PC on because of YouTube (ok, other reasons too). I have scripts that suck down videos from a bunch of channels automatically to archive them in case of take downs.
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Dec 17, 2022 09:55
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Craptacular! posted:I have 150/5 and even gigabit plans come with a 1TB data cap. I also feel kind of sketch letting any other remote provider than my own home computer have a record of just how much respect and obedience there is for the DMCA 'round these parts.
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Dec 17, 2022 14:43
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Now there's one B650E motherboard that claims support for ECC, and where I'm reasonably sure it's properly implemented.
BlankSystemDaemon fucked around with this message at 13:17 on Dec 21, 2022 |
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Dec 21, 2022 13:13
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BlankSystemDaemon posted:Now there's one B650E motherboard that claims support for ECC, and where I'm reasonably sure it's properly implemented. Was going to post something along the lines of, "C'mooooon Asrock", but in hitting quote, the markdown expanded and spoiled it for me. Still good to know they're still wonderfully predictable.
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Dec 21, 2022 13:40
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SwissArmyDruid posted:Was going to post something along the lines of, "C'mooooon Asrock", but in hitting quote, the markdown expanded and spoiled it for me. Still good to know they're still wonderfully predictable.
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Dec 21, 2022 16:27
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BlankSystemDaemon posted:Now there's one B650E motherboard that claims support for ECC, and where I'm reasonably sure it's properly implemented. It has remote management too! I'm guessing that no sites have ever directly run the same benchmarks on high end desktop processors as say, 2x Xeon Silver 4316s. How do 40 low frequency Ice Lake cores do against 16 Zen 4 cores at twice the clock, or 8P+16E Raptor Lake? Napkin math says that unless you need mega memory bandwidth, desktop CPUs are somewhere around the performance of a $5k dual socket server?
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Dec 21, 2022 17:05
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Twerk from Home posted:It has remote management too! I'm guessing that no sites have ever directly run the same benchmarks on high end desktop processors as say, 2x Xeon Silver 4316s. How do 40 low frequency Ice Lake cores do against 16 Zen 4 cores at twice the clock, or 8P+16E Raptor Lake? Intel server CPUs are usually a fair bit behind, with Sapphire Rapids being the server version of the Alder Lake client CPUs, so while there's a natural temptation to compare it with AMD Genoa, I'm not sure it'll do you much good - especially because Genoa tops out at 96 cores while Sapphire Rapids top out at 56-60 (depending on the rumors). Intel doesn't really have an equivalent of AMDs Bergamo which tops out at 128 cores, but I'm pretty sure AMD is intending to compete with Ampere Altra Max instead of Intel.
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Dec 21, 2022 19:08
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BlankSystemDaemon posted:If AsRock Rack made something without remote management, I can't imagine anyone'd buy it. I'm not comparing server to server here, I'm noticing that consumer desktop parts seem to be pulling even with entry-mid server parts, which I don't know that we've seen since the Pentium Pro. Intel's server parts being 2.5 generations behind isn't helping, of course (Ice Lake -> Tiger Lake -> Alder Lake -> Raptor Lake).
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Dec 21, 2022 19:22
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A bit of a long shot here but I'd like to either rent someone's Ryzen 3x00, doesn't matter which, OR have someone flash an x570 for me. I have a TUF x570 that I bought around the time the 5x00 came out and I suspect it shipped with an older bios. I'd be more comfortable shipping my mobo to someone than renting the CPU honestly but it's more work. Anyway, please PM me and we can talk details, thanks! Edit - I should also mention that I'm in the US. Kaddish fucked around with this message at 22:19 on Dec 21, 2022 |
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Dec 21, 2022 20:51
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If you’re anywhere near a micro center they will probably do it for you for free if you buy some poo poo.
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Dec 22, 2022 14:45
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:If you’re anywhere near a micro center they will probably do it for you for free if you buy some poo poo. Unfortunately no microcenter near me. I'll probably end up buying the cheapest CPU I can find on Ebay and hoping it works.
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Dec 22, 2022 15:17
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Kaddish posted:Unfortunately no microcenter near me. I'll probably end up buying the cheapest CPU I can find on Ebay and hoping it works. Do you have any local independent actual computer stores in your area? I know they are dying out but if there's one near you, I bet they could help you for cheap.
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Dec 22, 2022 15:32
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Newest rumors claim for a new "regular" Threadripper 7000 series to be coming this fall. loving hell, this is annoying.
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Dec 22, 2022 15:32
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Kaddish posted:A bit of a long shot here but I'd like to either rent someone's Ryzen 3x00, doesn't matter which, OR have someone flash an x570 for me. I have a TUF x570 that I bought around the time the 5x00 came out and I suspect it shipped with an older bios. I'd be more comfortable shipping my mobo to someone than renting the CPU honestly but it's more work. In that situation I'd consider "renting" one from amazon prime. I don't have any ryzen's not in socket doing their job right now, unfortunately.
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Dec 22, 2022 19:02
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Kaddish posted:Unfortunately no microcenter near me. I'll probably end up buying the cheapest CPU I can find on Ebay and hoping it works.
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Dec 22, 2022 19:46
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Kaddish posted:A bit of a long shot here but I'd like to either rent someone's Ryzen 3x00, doesn't matter which, OR have someone flash an x570 for me. I have a TUF x570 that I bought around the time the 5x00 came out and I suspect it shipped with an older bios. I'd be more comfortable shipping my mobo to someone than renting the CPU honestly but it's more work. You don't mention it, but I assume you've checked to see if you can flash the BIOS without a CPU installed?
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Dec 22, 2022 20:06
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:Do you have any local independent actual computer stores in your area? I know they are dying out but if there's one near you, I bet they could help you for cheap. I checked with one and they wanted to charge me $120 and it would take 2 weeks. Noped right out. Khorne posted:I have a 1600x sitting around. Not sure if it will work with the x570 bios version you have, though. Thanks, it may or may not work depending on the bios and board but probably too much hassle if it doesn't. CaptainSarcastic posted:You don't mention it, but I assume you've checked to see if you can flash the BIOS without a CPU installed? No bios flashback on the Tuf Gaming Wifi unfortunately.
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Dec 22, 2022 20:29
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Kaddish posted:I checked with one and they wanted to charge me $120 and it would take 2 weeks. Noped right out. lol what the hell
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Dec 22, 2022 20:30
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Combat Pretzel posted:Newest rumors claim for a new "regular" Threadripper 7000 series to be coming this fall. loving hell, this is annoying. I wouldn't hold your breath (speaking as a 3960X bagholder); feels like the highest end mainstream desktop has basically lost what used to be HEDT in the confusion. They were already using the server sockets, and now they might as well just sell you what's effectively the same thing as the comparable EPYC rather than burning the chiplets on HEDT-specific parts. I guess they figure if you need the things that would drive one in the past to HEDT, besides cores/threads (so PCIe lanes and/or memory channels), you'll go for either EPYC or the "Pro" Threadripper line. Feels like there could be a niche for a B650E mobo that uses a PCIe switch or optimizes lane breakout to offer primarily x4 ports to OCUlink or something for storage devices + high-speed networking if that's what you're after. Still feels like AM5 might get to having a PCIe 5.0 link between CPU/chipset in the next rev, assuming they didn't do it on the current gen due to cost.
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Dec 24, 2022 23:48
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If I’m looking to pick up a 7950X3D when one is available (lol), are odds good it would slot into an AM5? Would probably be doing ASRock or ASUS.
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Dec 25, 2022 01:14
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Gyrotica posted:If I’m looking to pick up a 7950X3D when one is available (lol), are odds good it would slot into an AM5? Would probably be doing ASRock or ASUS. Should be 100% fine; don’t even have to worry about BIOS updates (in the sense that all mobos will have USB-based flash, IIRC).
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Dec 25, 2022 01:24
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