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also won't nvidia handicap the 4060 because it might compete against other nvidia products then release a cut down 4070 that will be called 4060 then a release a 4060 ti then another 4060 with slight different memory?
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Dec 21, 2022 20:29
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Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:I've tried FG with Portal RTX, The Witcher 3, Spider-Man, and Flight Simulator. I don't really dislike it, it's just okay. It adds a little bit of extra smoothness, but it doesn't really feel much faster. In games which you are GPU-bound, it's almost always a downgrade. Which is going to be almost all games if you're on a 4060. This means it’s just the same evolution path we had with Turing where only the 2080Ti was really fun to play with RT and DLSS with less comprises. I claim FG has come to stay and might be a showcase for the 4080 and 4090 “only”, if your 4060 scenario is true. The technology might need 1 or 2 more gens to be accessible to a broader audience without that stupid entry “fee”. Pathtracing even rips 4090s asunder without upscaling and FG help, so the transition to 4K and better graphics will not be solved with raw power alone. That tech will mature. The prices are unfortunately as high as the fps.
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Dec 21, 2022 20:29
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it will mature for sure, but there's always going to be a latency trade-off as long as they rely on interpolation DLSS2/FSR2 were a much more straightforward win since they were just a refinement of the TAA techniques everyone was already using
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Dec 21, 2022 20:34
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perhaps future iterations of frame generation could give you the choice between "performance FG" (extrapolation without lag) or "quality FG" (interpolation with lag) i don't know what kind of image quality you can reasonably expect with extrapolation though, it's used in VR but only as a last resort there due to the image degradation
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Dec 21, 2022 20:39
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I haven't played with it enough to have an opinion, but I've seen people on the internet showing weird artifacts from dlss/fsr. Example: https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/v2tylq/god_of_war_fsr_20_and_dlss_artifact_comparison/
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Dec 21, 2022 20:42
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I wonder when AMD will try to release a 7800 that is both slower and more expensive than the 6950
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Dec 21, 2022 21:12
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VostokProgram posted:I haven't played with it enough to have an opinion, but I've seen people on the internet showing weird artifacts from dlss/fsr. Example: https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/v2tylq/god_of_war_fsr_20_and_dlss_artifact_comparison/ there are places where they fall down, but overall they hold up remarkably well considering that even on quality mode they're only rendering about half the pixels of a native image each frame. FSR 2.0s disocclusion fizzle in GOW was pretty bad but they improved that in 2.1 i think. i would like to see more flexibility to dial in the quality though, having discrete steps of 33/50/58/66% axis scale is an arbitrary limitation, there's no reason they couldn't just give you a slider that goes from 33% to 100% so you can give it just a few more pixels if you're noticing instability
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Dec 21, 2022 21:15
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Mr.PayDay posted:I went with all that negative feedback into all 4 FG games thinking that it was “fake frames”. And I was left impressed and feel it might even be a bigger deal than DLSS and FSR imo. I've been doing both spidersmans with FG and DLAA instead of DLSS. It's completely amazing. I don't notice any extra latency at all, and I run it at full settings at max FPS on both 4k120 and 1440pUW at 144 at absolute max frames.
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Dec 21, 2022 21:17
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I'm playing Destiny 2 (on a 60hz monitor no less) which by virtue of being an old console port does not tax my system much at all, so I'm looking at the render resolution slider to render above my display resolution all "After all, why shouldn't I?" ala Bilbo. Is there any point? AA by way of scaling it back down to my display rez?
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Dec 21, 2022 21:23
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Just sayin' that  100+ FPS with frame generation and all RT settings to high in Darktide is pretty nice and the latency increase is not negatively impacting my gameplay.
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Dec 21, 2022 21:27
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how the gently caress did we land on lovely interpolation being the shiny new thing when async spacewarp exists for like half a decade now, achieves more or less the same thing, but does not introduce input lag
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Dec 21, 2022 21:47
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Can some of you novideo freaks generate some extra frames for santa (USPS) to make my AMD gpu get here faster tia I kind of lament the loss of Power Play Tables with RDNA 3 but it doesn't exactly seem like it needs them.
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Dec 21, 2022 21:49
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Truga posted:how the gently caress did we land on lovely interpolation being the shiny new thing I don't know but I truly hate it.
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Dec 21, 2022 21:50
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Truga posted:how the gently caress did we land on lovely interpolation being the shiny new thing when async spacewarp exists for like half a decade now, achieves more or less the same thing, but does not introduce input lag because extrapolation algorithms like spacewarp are more prone to artifacts, hence why in VR they are treated as a last resort to keep the user from barfing, rather than "free frames"
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Dec 21, 2022 21:50
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Arrath posted:I'm playing Destiny 2 (on a 60hz monitor no less) which by virtue of being an old console port does not tax my system much at all, so I'm looking at the render resolution slider to render above my display resolution all "After all, why shouldn't I?" ala Bilbo. It just looks good. For some reason Nvidia Geforce Experience has been autoscaling my games to 4K and then resizing them to fit my 1440p monitor lately and the additional crispness is definitely noticeable in some cases (like it totally eliminates low-res environmental textures in Elden Ring)
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Dec 21, 2022 21:50
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repiv posted:because extrapolation algorithms like spacewarp are more prone to artifacts, hence why in VR they are treated as a last resort to keep the user from barfing, rather than "free frames" they're not free frames with interpolation either just a different lovely tradeoff. it's why everyone will tell you to turn that poo poo off when your expensive tv ships with it on by default lol
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Dec 21, 2022 21:56
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like i posted above it would be nice to have the choice between extrapolation or interpolation so you can pick your poison depending on how latency sensitive the game is
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Dec 21, 2022 21:58
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Truga posted:how the gently caress did we land on lovely interpolation being the shiny new thing when async spacewarp exists for like half a decade now, achieves more or less the same thing, but does not introduce input lag because it's ~*artificial intelligence machine learning tensor cores*~ doing it
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Dec 21, 2022 22:03
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repiv posted:like i posted above it would be nice to have the choice between extrapolation or interpolation so you can pick your poison depending on how latency sensitive the game is yeah that's fair
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Dec 21, 2022 22:05
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I have a theory that you can reinvent any existing technology that gamers hate using tensor cores and put a GeForce logo on it and they'll be busting in their jorts to be the most passionate one to proclaim it as the best next generation technology that everyone else just doesn't understand the significance of.
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Dec 21, 2022 22:07
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Kazinsal posted:I have a theory that you can reinvent any existing technology that gamers hate using tensor cores and put a GeForce logo on it and they'll be busting in their jorts to be the most passionate one to proclaim it as the best next generation technology that everyone else just doesn't understand the significance of.
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Dec 21, 2022 22:11
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My friend picked up a 4090 and I tried out Portal and Witcher 3 at his place. DLSS3 is pretty cool and I didn't really notice any latency, but I must be particularly sensitive to the weird compression-y artefacts it introduces. I felt like I was watching a YouTube video on a TV with frame interpolation turn on. I'm sure it'll improve in time, but I'd personally leave it off right now. My friend didn't mind the look though. Seems to perform best when going from a high frame rate to an even higher frame rate so I'm not sure how well something like a 4060, where the base frame rate will be way lower, would fare. I do think it's amusing that the people were always complaining about all the "hacks" that developers need to do to good looking lighting in video games before ray tracing was a thing. Now we've got ray tracing, but we're also burdened with an entirely new set of temporal hacks to get anything useable. Maybe one day return to the good old days, when a frame was a frame, not some monstrosity stitched together from the corpses of previous, dead frames.
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Dec 21, 2022 22:17
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We're still mostly either-or-ing raytraced shadows or raytraced lights too while trying to fake the sound. Though, for all of the poo poo I gave the CoD devs for jizzing all over themselves about the water caustics in MW2, they are really well done. Because of the way they are calculated, a really oversimplified explanation could be "double raytracing"
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Dec 21, 2022 22:23
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i can't see TAA and it's siblings ever going away really, despite their faults they're just too strong of a force-multiplier to give up it takes supersampling from an absurdly high resolution to achieve from scratch in one frame what TAA does almost as well in a few milliseconds
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Dec 21, 2022 22:24
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Has anyone checked what the new max supersampling resolution is on a 1080p display with RDNA 3 cards? If you're only using one monitor you can do 2880p with the 6900XT. Idk that I'd call it playable, but it was pretty cool for capturing replays of good runs.
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Dec 21, 2022 22:46
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 I dunno. I'd have to see it in action but being mad about "fake frames" while the raster pipeline is full of horrible hacks that vaguely approximate what things should look like seems pretty weird.
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Dec 21, 2022 23:48
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mobby_6kl posted:
Yeah once i've seen RT in action I am absolutely not willing to put up with screenspace reflections, sticks out like a sore thumb
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Dec 21, 2022 23:55
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Arrath posted:I'm playing Destiny 2 (on a 60hz monitor no less) which by virtue of being an old console port does not tax my system much at all, so I'm looking at the render resolution slider to render above my display resolution all "After all, why shouldn't I?" ala Bilbo. It's more AA yes.
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Dec 22, 2022 00:01
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doesn't destiny 2 still have really terrible antialiasing, sounds like a good candidate for supersampling if you can afford it
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Dec 22, 2022 00:03
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gradenko_2000 posted:It's more AA yes. Its almost AAA
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Dec 22, 2022 00:03
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mobby_6kl posted:I dunno. I'd have to see it in action but being mad about "fake frames" while the raster pipeline is full of horrible hacks that vaguely approximate what things should look like seems pretty weird. I'm kind of reminded of the mid-late 2000s when everyone started doing HDR, bokeh, and bloom in their games, but few did it well and most were a blurry brown mess. Now, we've got a few stand out raytracing titles but need to put up with a lot ghosting, interpolation, and blur. In the case of RTGI, I find the way lighting lags its cause to be very distracting. Shadows from fans and quickly moving object in Portal RTX have an unrealistic, odd look to them that comes from the temporal reconstruction. We put up with it now because it's new and shiny, but nobody wants that. Honestly, we're probably at the dawn of a glorious new age of hacks that developers will create to bring, I dunno, "immediacy" back to ray traced lighting.
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Dec 22, 2022 00:50
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Deep learning is actually an insane inflection point on image and video modeling and temporal data, this would not be just a “technology progressing as expected” case. I don’t have much experience with rendering but there’s a reason why Neurips and the other ML conferences sell out registration in minutes and SIGGRAPH is 75% deep learning papers. It really is a new world.
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Dec 22, 2022 00:57
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steckles posted:SSR, sure that's the very definition of a hack. This is totally splitting hairs but I wouldn't really call shadow maps a hack though. They're fundamentally solving the same visibility query as intersecting a ray with geometry does. You absolutely can do stuff like penumbra, translucency, and pixel perfect sharpness with shadow maps. There is decades worth of research from the film industry that hasn't really been tapped yet in games. yeah shadowmaps can model point lights pretty well, where they fall apart completely is with large or oddly shaped area lights. the compromise UE5 makes is sensible for now - keep using shadowmaps for small lights, and handle large light shadows implicitly through the global illumination system. it's a bit laggy and has limited resolution, but it's better than nothing.
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Dec 22, 2022 01:00
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so what you're saying is, the first person who builds path tracing assisted shadowmaps to file off the edge cases wins the RT race? 
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Dec 22, 2022 01:07
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JackBandit posted:Deep learning is actually an insane inflection point on image and video modeling and temporal data, this would not be just a “technology progressing as expected” case. I don’t have much experience with rendering but there’s a reason why Neurips and the other ML conferences sell out registration in minutes and SIGGRAPH is 75% deep learning papers. It really is a new world. repiv posted:yeah shadowmaps can model point lights pretty well, where they fall apart completely is with large or oddly shaped area lights. Truga posted:so what you're saying is, the first person who builds path tracing assisted shadowmaps to file off the edge cases wins the RT race?
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Dec 22, 2022 01:23
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If real-time ray tracing at the consumer level was only available quite recently, does that mean there was ray-tracing being done earlier in the 21st century in applications where you could take all the time you wanted to render frames and then play it back? Like a movie or some other CGI?
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Dec 22, 2022 01:27
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gradenko_2000 posted:If real-time ray tracing at the consumer level was only available quite recently, does that mean there was ray-tracing being done earlier in the 21st century in applications where you could take all the time you wanted to render frames and then play it back? Like a movie or some other CGI? Pixar movies have been fully ray/path traced for near a decade now, IIRC.
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Dec 22, 2022 01:33
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yeah, some 3d shows/movies are path traced to at least some extent going back to like 90s or something, also what ^ said
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Dec 22, 2022 01:34
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steckles posted:Probably. We're realistically always gonna be at a deficit for ray tracing performance. Using the rays that can be traced in your frame budget to fill in the cracks of you more garden variety hacks is probably gonna make up a lot of research in the next few years. there's a neat symmetry emerging there in realtime land, where rays are used to fill in large scale details that screenspace techniques miss, while screenspace techniques are still useful to fill in the micro details that are missing from the simplified raytracing representation SSR/SSAO/SS shadows will never die, just be absorbed into a bigger system
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Dec 22, 2022 01:35
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Ray tracing has existed as a concept ever since computer graphics have, more or less, and it's been used in movies since the 90s, though the extent to which it was used then is debatable. It's utilized quite heavily now, though I understand they'll still take shortcuts to reduce rendering time when it won't impact the visuals. It would take a very long time to render out individual scenes back then. edit: to add more content to this efb, here's a CGI ray-tracing demonstration from 1979. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fy2bmXfOFs
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Dec 22, 2022 01:37
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