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WSWS puts out far more good work than bad on real world issues affecting people right now which should carry a lot more weight with goons who like to mock trots for being ideological purists and splitters. I don’t care one bit about their position on politicians from one hundred years ago
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Dec 24, 2022 23:24
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this is a silly internet forum it doesn't matter dude
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Dec 25, 2022 01:02
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Jonah Galtberg posted:politicians from one hundred years ago new ‘someone who was political during ww2’ just dropped
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Dec 25, 2022 01:06
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Jonah Galtberg posted:WSWS puts out far more good work than bad on real world issues affecting people right now which should carry a lot more weight with goons who like to mock trots for being ideological purists and splitters. I don’t care one bit about their position on politicians from one hundred years ago their website ran a wrecker candidate for president of the union I'm in and I've met these people on strike lines and they're completely insufferable loons.
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Dec 25, 2022 02:15
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so you're saying you have seen them on strike lines
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Dec 25, 2022 02:23
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Jonah Galtberg posted:WSWS puts out far more good work than bad on real world issues affecting people right now which should carry a lot more weight with goons who like to mock trots for being ideological purists and splitters. I don’t care one bit about their position on politicians from one hundred years ago The consistent and adamant sexpest defense thing is pretty bad. Also, have you ever tried to get trots to *stop* talking about the USSR/Stalin? My convo that sparked all this was mostly me saying “hey what about modern struggles at the margins of empire which are actually advancing revolutionary science???” And the dude being like “Filthy Stalinist!!!”
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Dec 25, 2022 05:00
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In Training posted:their website ran a wrecker candidate for president of the union I'm in and I've met these people on strike lines and they're completely insufferable loons. at the hunts point market strike a year or so back they showed up to tell the workers to immediately leave their union and establish a soviet Sunny Side Up posted:The consistent and adamant sexpest defense thing is pretty bad. it is in fact liberalism per combat liberalism (1937) to just shrug and ignore all their anti-metoo poo poo because you like some of their other articles
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Dec 25, 2022 05:01
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it's particularly weird because if there's one thing you can usually count on trotskyist organizations to get right it's feminism. the social conservatism of the stalin era is a perennial arrow in their quiver for good reason and while trotsky joined the other old bolsheviks in pooh-poohing, like, family abolition he was broadly good on gender and queer stuff as far as i know
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Dec 25, 2022 05:08
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Finally got my.mitts on volume III and this thing is a goddamn tome.
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Dec 25, 2022 05:09
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Brandon Proust posted:new ‘someone who was political during ww2’ just dropped dont care In Training posted:their website ran a wrecker candidate for president of the union I'm in and I've met these people on strike lines and they're completely insufferable loons. dont care Sunny Side Up posted:The consistent and adamant sexpest defense thing is pretty bad. dont care Ferrinus posted:at the hunts point market strike a year or so back they showed up to tell the workers to immediately leave their union and establish a soviet Ferrinus posted:it's particularly weird because if there's one thing you can usually count on trotskyist organizations to get right it's feminism. the social conservatism of the stalin era is a perennial arrow in their quiver for good reason and while trotsky joined the other old bolsheviks in pooh-poohing, like, family abolition he was broadly good on gender and queer stuff as far as i know
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Dec 25, 2022 06:12
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Correct. You don't care. You have the freedom of not having to care - much like the freedom of a pig that can wallow in its own poo poo to its heart's content, destined to become a sausage regardless of what it does. Other people are shackled in the terrible chains of their actions having actual consequences, and as such need to confront the possibility of being wrong and at least make an attempt not being so.
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Dec 25, 2022 06:26
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my dad posted:Correct. You don't care. You have the freedom of not having to care - much like the freedom of a pig that can wallow in its own poo poo to its heart's content, destined to become a sausage regardless of what it does. Other people are shackled in the terrible chains of their actions having actual consequences, and as such need to confront the possibility of being wrong and at least make an attempt not being so.
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Dec 25, 2022 06:28
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MLSM posted:
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Dec 25, 2022 06:30
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I would call croup coughfield a soft bitch but he’s somehow too petty even for that description Who’s  for David Harvey’s new book?
MLSM has issued a correction as of 07:11 on Dec 25, 2022 |
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Dec 25, 2022 06:48
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Jonah Galtberg posted:dont care That's cool. Feel free to stop by my workplace and have some conversations w/ the people they pissed off I bet theyd love to know their ideology is actually pretty deece if you read some of their pieces
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Dec 25, 2022 06:53
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p.s. I havent read any Trotsky...Did Trotsky get more embittered and jaded re: the project of the Soviet Union over time? I assume so...I only ask cuz I was reading Vijay Prashad and Leon actually sounds reasonable around 1930quote:One of the books that I was able to find at a used bookstore was Leon Trotsky’s magisterial History of the Russian Revolution. I read this over my puja holidays in 1982, sitting in the Kolkata heat, with a petromax lantern to compensate for the ‘load-shedding’. My old copy is marked up – each page with a note. Right at the end, there is a sentence that appealed to me, and still does. It is about how the USSR was never given a chance by the bourgeoisie – as one would expect. From its first days, it was criticized mercilessly. Trotsky wrote his book in 1930, sitting in Istanbul, in exile in Turkey from the USSR. Thirteen years had elapsed since the October Revolution. The revolution was already being derided. ‘Capitalism’, Trotsky wrote in his conclusion, ‘required a hundred years to elevate science and technique to the heights and plunge humanity into the hell of war and crisis. To socialism its enemies allow only fifteen years to create and furnish a terrestrial paradise. We took no such obligation upon ourselves. We never set these dates. The process of vast transformation must be measured by an adequate scale.’ But it did not have the time to develop.
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Dec 25, 2022 07:22
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i've been reading isaac deutscher who is pretty good
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Dec 25, 2022 07:37
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for a trot!
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Dec 25, 2022 07:38
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MLSM posted:I would call croup coughfield a soft bitch but he’s somehow too petty even for that description what’s it about and what could I learn from it?
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Dec 25, 2022 07:43
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mawarannahr posted:what’s it about and what could I learn from it? That the Grundrisse owns
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Dec 25, 2022 07:45
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In Training posted:their website ran a wrecker candidate for president of the union I'm in and I've met these people on strike lines and they're completely insufferable loons. Didn't they also try to convince people to vote no on the amazon union? Maybe it was the teamster one?
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Dec 25, 2022 14:47
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AnimeIsTrash posted:Didn't they also try to convince people to vote no on the amazon union? Maybe it was the teamster one? Both I think. They have this weird relationship with unionization efforts
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Dec 25, 2022 14:55
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Punkin Spunkin posted:p.s. I havent read any Trotsky...Did Trotsky get more embittered and jaded re: the project of the Soviet Union over time? I assume so...I only ask cuz I was reading Vijay Prashad and Leon actually sounds reasonable around 1930 There's a pretty compact and approachable critique that provides some nuanced answers to your question, though that wasn't its primary objective of course. It was written by a french trot in '48. English translation : https://www.marxists.org/archive/lefort/1948/trotsky.htm two-time fee has issued a correction as of 15:26 on Dec 25, 2022 |
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Dec 25, 2022 14:59
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WSWS puts out so many stinkers it's not even worth having them in the feed
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Dec 25, 2022 15:02
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mawarannahr posted:here’s some source material dudes rock
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Dec 25, 2022 17:23
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I decided to finally read das kapital and the communist manifesto. i've never ready anything by marx before, would you recommend reading the full unabridged versions, or something that has annotatations/explanations alongside it I get a bit lost understanding what he's talking about at times
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Dec 25, 2022 17:26
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actionjackson posted:I decided to finally read das kapital and the communist manifesto. i've never ready anything by marx before, would you recommend reading the full unabridged versions, or something that has annotatations/explanations alongside it i've read capital vol 1 and 2. there are some really fantastic insights in there but marx's writing style sucks rear end. the best advice i can give if you seriously want to read them is to find a study group with like minded people to do it along with, you will likely (like millions of others) bounce off it if you try to do it alone. either that or find a modern adaptation of marx's kapital but i haven't found a good one personally. people have recommended david harvey's notes to read alongside but i didn't like them either. i found them longwinded enough that you might just as well read the original text. i think a good summary/companion would just skip some of the more useless chapters, and stick to short, didactic textbook like explanations with easy to read math/formulas. a good modern adaptation would also build on the century+ worth of things that have happened since marx mila kunis has issued a correction as of 17:39 on Dec 25, 2022 |
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Dec 25, 2022 17:33
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part of the issue imo is that german doesn't translate easily into good english prose. it's close enough that one wants to keep a lot of the compound words and sentence structure, but far enough that this makes everything a bit awkward to read
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Dec 25, 2022 17:35
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actionjackson posted:I decided to finally read das kapital and the communist manifesto. i've never ready anything by marx before, would you recommend reading the full unabridged versions, or something that has annotatations/explanations alongside it Hope you're a big fan of linen
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Dec 25, 2022 17:35
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SorePotato posted:WSWS puts out so many stinkers it's not even worth having them in the feed the last time i checked in on them they had a series of articles about how Gerald Horne was wrong about everything. "the american revolution was good, actually. settler colonialism helped a lot of people get to work on time."
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Dec 25, 2022 17:39
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it is a bit eyebrow raising that there is no decent modern version of Kapital, its like evolutionary science still going off Descent of Man also i read some trotsky at one point and he seemed pretty good, way better at writing than marx for sure
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Dec 25, 2022 17:40
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Communist Thoughts posted:it is a bit eyebrow raising that there is no decent modern version of Kapital, its like evolutionary science still going off Descent of Man the closest i've seen a decent recommendation for this is this soviet textbook...from 1954: https://www.marxists.org/subject/economy/authors/pe/index.htm someone also recommended Ben Fine, but I bounced off that immediately. heavy with academic jargon and run on sentences, just very poorly written.
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Dec 25, 2022 17:43
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The manifesto is (relatively) short and readable, capital is the one that's gonna be ultra dense reading the manifesto is nuts because it was written 150+ years ago and describes so much of today https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch01.htm
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Dec 25, 2022 17:59
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actionjackson posted:I decided to finally read das kapital and the communist manifesto. i've never ready anything by marx before, would you recommend reading the full unabridged versions, or something that has annotatations/explanations alongside it good choice. the manifesto, as has been noted, is very short and a pretty easy read. start there imo people whine and cry about how capital is too hard or whatever, but its really just the first three chapters that are challenging. personally, i used the chapter notes and exercises on marxists.org to help with my first read. i had to read the first few chapters a few times to really absorb all of it, but it made the rest of the works much easier to understand. i suspect anyone in this thread who's read it will be more than happy to answer questions or discuss the points in the text.
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Dec 25, 2022 18:12
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thanks also is there a recommended "answers to common questions and criticisms" site or video? obviously the millions (?_ of people that died under stalin, or mao, or pol pot, or whoever always comes up immediately. obviously tons of people have died under capitalism, but I just know it's by far the #1 comment others make when you mention marx in any fashion.
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Dec 25, 2022 18:20
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The Harvey lectures are good to follow along with it as well, but yeah what you'll want is a group to read it with. The lectures are on youtube and coincidentally make up a good structure for reading assignments for a group.
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Dec 25, 2022 18:29
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actionjackson posted:thanks ignore the haters for now. you gotta be educated in order to have those discussions effectively, rather than dishing from a cheat sheet. keep on the path you're on, build up that base of knowledge and theory. argue later.
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Dec 25, 2022 18:34
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Ive gotten through it on my own by following a Harvey lecture series on YT, I would have liked a reading group though.
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Dec 25, 2022 18:34
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actionjackson posted:I decided to finally read das kapital and the communist manifesto. i've never ready anything by marx before, would you recommend reading the full unabridged versions, or something that has annotatations/explanations alongside it Personally, I suggest reading the Manifesto and 18th Brumaire of Louis Bonaparte to get the knack of the literary style (and because they are good and short reads). About Capital, there are different approaches to take. For example, I had three semesters of political economy when I was studying econ (a decade ago whoa), the latter two of those focused on Capital. It was a systematic takedown, chapter by chapter, assignments and tests and what not week by week. This is the programmatic method. It works, but the one teaching should have some serious Marxist chops in order to make the ideas click, because the academic approach works against the intended goal. This is how you get that problem of some university Marxists who miss the forest for the trees, because they are stuck in that framework - "Socialism by delivering assignments" instead of something deeper than that. But thankfully you don't need an academic approach at all to learn about it. Another way is to learn by yourself. Personally, I recommend reading it casually at first, without any concerns about whether or not you are learning anything, just stroll along. A lot of people surprise themselves afterwards by interpreting stuff (like something from the news) through an association with a concept there, or just remembering the metaphors and realizing they got it better than they initially thought. If it triggers something pushing for more, then I suggest doing a guided reading using lessons from youtube (David Harvey has good stuff there), annotations, commentaries, asking posters here about it, etc. Being self-directed means you can take it as easy as you want and makes for a great intellectual exercise and hey, at least you get to learn something that seriously adds to a worldview. IMHO, however, I suggest to join a study group in a cool social organization if you get the fever. It heavily depends where you live, of course. Unions tend to have them, but it varies immensely from union to union and place to place. Good universities and organizations usually have open groups: since this tend to be volunteer work you get motivated tutors which, with some luck, seriously know their poo poo and tremendously helpful. Great professors usually do that and even prefer to teach in study groups because the group sets the pace as a whole, so taking weeks in a single topic is no big deal and can be very rewarding because of working through that branches out in many different points of knowledge. Also, this might be useful for everybody: depending on where you live (again), a party can be the best choice possible or an absolutely awful idea. I would strongly recommend taking your time if going by that route: get to know the place, the people, take it veeeeery easy. It can be the best because you get to study and learn with socialists who are great people engaged in practical efforts, so you get the knowledge plus the social know-how, besides getting to work together with people and building camaraderie and what not. It also can be a complete mess of petty intellectual vanities and seriously awful attitudes because "you don't know the theory". GTFO immediately if that is the vibe because lmao
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Dec 25, 2022 18:36
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| # ? Jun 3, 2024 10:40 |
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actionjackson posted:thanks gently caress'em. The internet isn't high stakes or important, and nobody is ever bringing that stuff up because they're "here to learn" or whatever. Ignore them or poo poo all over them, whichever is easiest. The figure comes from Victims of Communism, an org dedicated to rehabbing the image of Nazis and who hate Communism because the USSR executed Nazis instead of rescuing them and putting them back in power. They're morons who take pride in just knowing stuff without thinking about anything, if you wanna get your head right you can't give them any space in it. edit - they also aren't fans for the usual sort of reason you see people who fuckin' love genocide and cleansing campaigns still oppose this bodycount they thought up, that it was TRULY oppressive because it didn't allow megacorps to come in and run things on behalf of a ruling class of landlords. Just look at what we've built with the world stage all to ourselves after all.
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Dec 25, 2022 18:39
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