[Ukraine] EU: Nice minister, shame if something were to happen...

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lobotomy molo: May 7, 2007; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Frosted Flake posted:

Have we ever discussed why there are two placed called Galicia ITT?

The sacred soil of Ukrainian nationalism was basically conceived as a consolation prize for losing Spain.

- In the War of the Spanish Succession (1701-1714), the Habsburg dynasty lost control of Spain and the province of Galicia to the Bourbon dynasty.

- In 1772, as part of the first partition of Poland, the Habsburg monarchy created a new province in Eastern Europe called Galicia, which they conceived as a replacement for the lost province in Spain.

- In 1846, there was an uprising in Krakow, a city in Galicia, against the rule of the Habsburg monarchy. The uprising was eventually suppressed, but it demonstrated the discontent of the Polish aristocracy of Galicia. The Galicians/Ruthenians/Rusyns were crucial in restoring Imperial control over the province, carried out widespread massacres of Poles and Jews.

- In 1848, a series of revolutions swept across Europe, including in Galicia. The revolutions were driven by a variety of factors, including political, economic, and social issues, but the Galicians/Ruthenians/Rusyns remained loyal and helped suppress the Poles

- In 1891, a pogrom against Jews took place in Galicia. The pogrom was fuelled by anti-Semitic sentiment and resulted in the deaths of several people and the destruction of Jewish property.

Taken together, it looks like this. Created out of Poland, named for a lost territory in Spain, and facing the rival Russian Empire, Austria-Hungary needed to weld together an identity in Galicia. The risings of the hated Polish landlords against Austria provided an opening to inspire loyalty in the Galician/Ruthenian/Rusyn peasants, who were richly rewarded for their service in uh massacring them. For reasons I'm still trying to look into, cyclical massacres of Poles and Jews became tied up in all of this, even when they weren't being disloyal to the Kaiser. In the late 19th and early 20th centuries, Galicia became an Imperial border march of Austria-Hungary. This meant that it was a border region that was used to defend the empire from external threats. During this time, a Galician identity emerged that was defined by loyalism to Austria-Hungary, Catholicism, and service to the empire. This identity was fundamentally artificial, as it was created and shaped by the Habsburg monarchy and the external forces that shaped the region.

Internally, it goes into pretty dark places. For example, a Loyalist identity alone does not explain massacres of Jews. In fact, the Jews were pretty drat loyal to the Kaiser, petitioned for an expanded Jewish role in Austria-Hungary, and even had a parallel project for Galicia to become a Jewish province of A-H, which was more popular than Zionism for a time. There were elements of the Polish population loyal to Austria-Hungary, but the depredations of the Hungarian petty aristocracy and the massacres by the country bumpkins was a cause of resentment and Polish nationalism so that seems to have backfired as well. I would guess that rivalries with the Poles and Jews took on a life of their own. Maybe it was as simple as competition for political and economic control over the province. and resentment of Jewish townsmen by peasants was common throughout Central Europe.

There's a parallel as well. Like the creation of a Galician identity in Eastern Europe, the creation of a Croatian identity can also be seen as a process of identity formation that was shaped by the Habsburg monarchy and the strategic forces that shaped the region. Croatia, which was a part of Austria-Hungary, also developed as an Imperial border march that was used to defend the empire from external threats. As with Galicia, the creation of a Croatian identity was fundamentally artificial. This Croatian identity was defined by loyalism to Austria-Hungary, Catholicism, and service to the empire. The Habsburgs encouraged the development of a Croatian national identity as a way to foster loyalty and cohesion among the diverse groups that lived within the border regions of the empire.

Both the Galician and Croatian identities were artificial in the sense that they were constructed and shaped by external forces, rather than being based on a shared history or cultural traditions. However, both identities did become meaningful to the people who lived within these regions and helped to shape their sense of belonging and identity. For reasons, as I said, I'm still trying to work out, nationalists of both groups collaborated enthusiastically with the Third Reich, massacred Jews and their neighbours - Poles in one case, Serbs in the other. When the larger states of the USSR and Yugoslavia broke up, the nationalists popped the gently caress off, began projects to rehabilitate their Nazi collaborator forebears, and see themselves as defenders of the West/NATO against Serbia and Russia which was exactly what Austria intended.

I don't know how to fully explain blowback like this, or a solution. I mean, obviously... there is one way to harness these powers for good...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fmeMMOkU1U

nationalism is one of the best examples of a self-perpetuating idea that takes on a life of its own, far beyond its creators� original intentions

proposal: convince some dudes to fight for their emperor instead of their neighbors
reality: millions dead, countless wars and genocides, azov nazis jerking off to burning canoes

if it came a little later I�d swear it had to be a goon project

# ? Dec 26, 2022 19:58

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# ? May 24, 2024 20:44

mawarannahr: May 21, 2019

Isentropy posted:

Way ahead of you

Also if Orange Devil didn't already post the link:

https://twitter.com/AP_Europe/status/1607014001333919746?t=-7Yo1caJw7CyoAiXeAABOg&s=19

there is some precedent: Greek Orthodox switched to the Gregorian calendar the Greek state used around 1923. a few places like Mt Athos use January, apparently.

# ? Dec 26, 2022 19:59

mawarannahr: May 21, 2019

Jazerus posted:

wtf

i'm pretty sure vlad was into "panturkism": hitting turks with pans until they died

I hate the Turks and I will hate them as long as I live. They are lower than any dog. Laughably, one would have to use bricks left over from the Byzantines to kill one, because they still have not mastered brick making and the brick would just break on the thick skull. Make this the C-SPAM background.

# ? Dec 26, 2022 20:11

Frosted Flake: Sep 13, 2011; Semper Shitpost Ubique

lobotomy molo posted:

nationalism is one of the best examples of a self-perpetuating idea that takes on a life of its own, far beyond its creators� original intentions

proposal: convince some dudes to fight for their emperor instead of their neighbors
reality: millions dead, countless wars and genocides, azov nazis jerking off to burning canoes

if it came a little later I�d swear it had to be a goon project

It's really something.

# ? Dec 26, 2022 20:11

Lostconfused: Oct 1, 2008

Atrocious Joe posted:

https://twitter.com/DmytroKuleba/status/1607367739043205122?t=BrOI94Yh42tTOD6nxicwIw&s=19

https://twitter.com/AP/status/1607438098505551873

What's the phrase?

It's nice to want things?

# ? Dec 26, 2022 20:15

speng31b: May 8, 2010

mawarannahr posted:

I hate the Turks and I will hate them as long as I live. They are lower than any dog. Laughably, one would have to use bricks left over from the Byzantines to kill one, because they still have not mastered brick making and the brick would just break on the thick skull. Make this the C-SPAM background.

lmao

# ? Dec 26, 2022 20:19

Lostconfused: Oct 1, 2008

Nice touch putting turks lower than the dogs.

# ? Dec 26, 2022 20:28

Nonsense: Jan 26, 2007

the peoples of europe are free to choose their associations

# ? Dec 26, 2022 20:29

Cerebral Bore: Apr 21, 2010; Fun Shoe

stephenthinkpad posted:

UN3.0 UNSC reform: US, China, EU, Russia+ (Eurasia Union) , Common Wealth, African Union

And the meeting should be hosted in these 6 regions on rotation.

No more blocking the mother loving 1st Ave.

tired: reforming the unsc

wired: abolishing the unsc

inspired: replacing the unsc with jdpon

# ? Dec 26, 2022 20:31

ContinuityNewTimes: Dec 30, 2010; Я выдуман напрочь

That Turkish salty yogurt drink is gross but the rest of their food is good so I say the Turks are ok

# ? Dec 26, 2022 20:41

Lostconfused: Oct 1, 2008

https://twitter.com/JorisvandeRiet/status/1574010083075395585
https://twitter.com/JorisvandeRiet/status/1574012629374353409

# ? Dec 26, 2022 20:41

Best Friends: Nov 4, 2011

Lostconfused posted:

https://twitter.com/AP/status/1607438098505551873

What's the phrase?

It's nice to want things?

wait I thought wanting peace was stabbing Ukraine in the back

# ? Dec 26, 2022 20:55

Lostconfused: Oct 1, 2008

Best Friends posted:

wait I thought wanting peace was stabbing Ukraine in the back

He means peace without Russia.

quote:

But Foreign Minister Dmytro Kuleba told The Associated Press that Russia could only be invited to such a summit if the country faced a war crimes tribunal first.

Asked about whether they would invite Russia to the summit, he said that Moscow would first need to face prosecution for war crimes at an international court.

�They can only be invited to this step in this way,� Kuleba said.

# ? Dec 26, 2022 20:57

speng31b: May 8, 2010

how can the UN have a peace summit with Ukraine and Russia if they kick Russia out. Are they invited back as a guest?

E: oh, lmao

# ? Dec 26, 2022 20:57

Zeroisanumber: Oct 23, 2010; Nap Ghost

Lostconfused posted:

https://twitter.com/JorisvandeRiet/status/1574010083075395585
https://twitter.com/JorisvandeRiet/status/1574012629374353409

Russia was seamlessly transitioned into the old USSR slot because literally every other Security Council member wanted it to. Going back to relitigate it is pointless.

# ? Dec 26, 2022 20:58

Comrade Koba: Jul 2, 2007

since they said negotiations are out of the question before every inch of ukrainian soil is liberated, we can only assume they have some secret genius master plan to recapture all of eastern ukraine and crimea in, uh, two months

edit: oh, wow, it�s even more stupid than that

# ? Dec 26, 2022 21:00

Vomik: Jul 29, 2003; This post is dedicated to the brave Mujahideen fighters of Afghanistan

Frosted Flake posted:

Can someone explain the sociology of the bluecheck greeting �Hi there! (Credentials) here, (insane bullshit in condescending tone)�.�?

I mean that white dude is mega cringe but that original post is just the dumbest loving thing ever written. symphonic algorithm?? lol

# ? Dec 26, 2022 21:01

iCe-CuBe.: Jun 9, 2011

I call for Ukraine to be elevated to cutest country award, and also for Zelensky to finally get his chance at getting slimed at the Teens Choice Awards

# ? Dec 26, 2022 21:21

PiratePrentice: Oct 29, 2022; by Hand Knit

Vomik posted:

I mean that white dude is mega cringe but that original post is just the dumbest loving thing ever written. symphonic algorithm?? lol

Yeah the second post is cringe but it's technically correct, and the first post is so much worse lol

# ? Dec 26, 2022 21:27

Atrocious Joe: Sep 2, 2011

Lostconfused posted:

https://twitter.com/JorisvandeRiet/status/1574010083075395585
https://twitter.com/JorisvandeRiet/status/1574012629374353409

if the seat goes to the larger constituent part, how come India didn't get the UK's seat

# ? Dec 26, 2022 21:29

Turtle Watch: Jul 30, 2010; by Games Forum

Frosted Flake posted:

Can someone explain the sociology of the bluecheck greeting �Hi there! (Credentials) here, (insane bullshit in condescending tone)�.�?

Hi there! Meritologist here, this is NOT funny or cute, �experts� only do this when they are extremely upset or in distress.

(I assume one of those kind of posts on some cute animal video is the originator of the phraseology, at least that is the first I saw it, amateur internet historiographer here.)

# ? Dec 26, 2022 21:36

i say swears online: Mar 4, 2005

Tankbuster posted:

he is talking about the ex warsaw pact countries. What do the baltic states' economies consist of?

Zeroisanumber posted:

I assume trade? Maybe banking shennanigans? Never heard of them being tourist destinations.

talinn, estonia is a giant british stag party

# ? Dec 26, 2022 21:44

Vomik: Jul 29, 2003; This post is dedicated to the brave Mujahideen fighters of Afghanistan

Atrocious Joe posted:

if the seat goes to the larger constituent part, how come India didn't get the UK's seat

*nodding and smiling before knocking over water glass and running out the back door*

# ? Dec 26, 2022 21:47

Zeroisanumber: Oct 23, 2010; Nap Ghost

Atrocious Joe posted:

if the seat goes to the larger constituent part, how come India didn't get the UK's seat

China barely got one. Belive it or not the US insisted on it.

# ? Dec 26, 2022 21:51

Frosted Flake: Sep 13, 2011; Semper Shitpost Ubique

Comrade Koba posted:

since they said negotiations are out of the question before every inch of ukrainian soil is liberated, we can only assume they have some secret genius master plan to recapture all of eastern ukraine and crimea in, uh, two months

edit: oh, wow, it�s even more stupid than that

Their plan was, is so far as we know, �draw the west into the war�. The rest of it, long ranged attacks on Russia, an attempt to sever the Crimea bridge, and Kherson have already happened so I don�t see why we�d expect a change.

# ? Dec 26, 2022 22:16

Majorian: Jul 1, 2009

Gripweed posted:

Taking this out of context,

lmfao

It's true on multiple levels!

# ? Dec 26, 2022 22:19

mawarannahr: May 21, 2019

hospital attacks in donetsk. the translated article is updated with some videos that came out since the original publication.

https://mronline.org/2022/12/24/ukr...o-days-in-a-row

quote:

Ukrainian army bombs Kalinina hospital in Donetsk for two days in a row

Originally published: Donbass Insider on December 12, 2022 (more by Donbass Insider) |
Continuing its tactic of terrorist bombardments against the inhabitants of Donetsk, the Ukrainian army shelled the Kalinina hospital (the largest and most important hospital in the city) for two days in a row, killing one patient and wounding four others. The latter were evacuated after the first shelling, avoiding a much higher death toll.

Since the beginning of December 2022, the Ukrainian army has been shelling the city centre of Donetsk on a daily basis, causing numerous civilian casualties. Many of these terrorist bombings are carried out with weapons supplied to Ukraine by NATO countries, such as 155 mm guns, but also Czech �Vampire� multiple rocket launchers (an evolution of the Soviet Grad multiple rocket launcher).

It was with these weapons that the Ukrainian army shelled the largest hospital in Donetsk (Kalinina Hospital) two days in a row.

On 18 December 2022, the Ukrainian army fired rockets during the day at a school and several children�s parks near the Donbass Arena football stadium. Fortunately, no one was there, and no one was killed in the shelling.

See the video of the school made by Adrien Bocquet :

Then, that same evening, the Ukrainian army shelled the centre of Donetsk again with several rockets. On their way to film the aftermath of the first bombardment, Adrien and a colleague from RT found themselves caught in the crossfire, with several rockets falling just a few dozen meters away from them.

In this second strike, the Ukrainian army shelled Kalinina Hospital, the main hospital in Donetsk. Five patients in the neurosurgery department were seriously injured, one of whom died of his injuries. Following this bombing, the hospital�s patients were evacuated.

See Adrien Bocquet�s video of 18 December 2022 evening:

The following day, Russian artillery and air force struck Ukrainian positions to the west and north-west of Donetsk in order to destroy the weapons and firing positions from which the bombardment of the city centre was being carried out. These strikes will allow the centre of Donetsk to enjoy a relatively calm day, as the Ukrainian army is only able to strike the northern and western outskirts of the city.

But no sooner had the planes and helicopters landed than the Ukrainian army brought out the weapons that had escaped the Russian strikes and fired five rockets at the Kalinina hospital in Donetsk and the surrounding buildings. The extent of the damage was spectacular, with one of the hospital buildings ripped open over several floors. Fortunately, as the hospital�s patients had been evacuated the day before, there were no casualties this time, including among the nursing staff who were still there.

Video of Adrien Bocquet showing the damage inflicted on the Kalinina hospital on 19 December 2022:

Such a level of destruction does not correspond to the damage that Grad rockets can inflict, and the shrapnel found at the site soon confirmed that these were JROF-M rockets, produced in Slovakia. These rockets, which are an evolution of the Soviet Grad, are much more powerful and have a longer range than the latter (40 km).

With two bombings in two days, and four in 10 days on the same hospital in Donetsk, it is clear that the Ukrainian army is deliberately targeting Kalinina Hospital. However, unlike the Ukrainian soldiers, the Russian soldiers do not install firing posts or weapons on the territory of hospitals. This is therefore another war crime by the Ukrainian army.

And whereas in March 2022, the entire Western press had howled at the bombing of Marioupol�s maternity hospital No. 3 by the Russian army (see the interview with Marianna Vychemirskaya on this subject), after several days of bombing of Donetsk�s Kalinina hospital by the Ukrainian army, and in spite of the civilian victims, there is not a single line on this war crime in the Western media!

Not a single line! Nothing, nada! The champions of virtue and human rights are conspicuous by their silence. The same people who want to set up a special tribunal to judge Russia and especially Vladimir Putin for the alleged war crimes of the Russian army, say nothing when they have very tangible proof of the war crimes of the Ukrainian army (which they arm, finance and train) before their eyes.

Before wanting to judge other countries for war crimes, the West would do well to put its own house in order, because in this area, NATO has no lesson to give to anyone! From Vietnam to Yugoslavia, through Syria, Afghanistan, or Iraq, Western countries have been the champions of war crimes for decades! The use of chemical products, depleted uranium ammunition, carpet bombing, drone strikes against civilians, and the financing of terrorist groups are just a few examples of the West�s, and especially NATO�s, bloody record of war crimes!

The silence of the West concerning the war crimes of the Ukrainian army, proves definitively that international law and human rights are for them rights with variable geometry according to who commits them. For Western countries, glorifying Nazism or committing war crimes is wrong, unless it is done by neo-Nazis or terrorists supported by these same Western countries.

It seems that the American general Joseph Stilwell�s quote about Chiang Kai-shek, �He�s a son of a bitch, but he�s our son of a bitch�, is still relevant in Western politics�

Translation: Vz yan for Donbass Insider

mawarannahr has issued a correction as of 23:13 on Dec 26, 2022

# ? Dec 26, 2022 22:34

Zedhe Khoja: Nov 10, 2017; sürgünden selamlar
yıkıcılar ulusuna

lobster shirt posted:

latvia and lithuania have both lost like 10% of their population since 2010, i guess thats one way to boost gdp per capita

at one point a few years ago the mushroom mod basically argued this to me yes (with a bunch of caveats, and erroneous optimism about some future welfare state programs that I'm sure are right around the corner)

# ? Dec 26, 2022 22:39

Zeroisanumber: Oct 23, 2010; Nap Ghost

Friend's mom finally got back home to Ukraine after visiting her here in the States. She tried to get her to either stay in the US or to stay at her brother's house in Poland, but her mom's a doctor and feels like she needs to go back.

Heat was off for 72 hours when she got back to her house but I guess it's been a relatively warm winter in Ukraine so it wasn't too bad for her.

I do hope the war ends soon. I don't want to hear that her mom got splattered in an artillery attack.

# ? Dec 26, 2022 22:41

Starsfan: Sep 29, 2007; This is what happens when you disrespect Cam Neely

It's wild to me that almost a year later the Ukrainian army is still basically In the suburbs of Donetsk. I'm sure Russia has been doing important things elsewhere but they really need to get around to clearing those guys out of the neighborhood

# ? Dec 26, 2022 22:44

Not So Fast: Dec 27, 2007

Medvedev casts the bones for his augury of 2023

https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1607455031816495105?t=dXP_lBLoE2CUCFOvHfGO1w&s=19

# ? Dec 26, 2022 22:47

ContinuityNewTimes: Dec 30, 2010; Я выдуман напрочь

mawarannahr posted:

hospital attacks in Donbas. the translated article is updated with some videos that came out since the original publication.

https://mronline.org/2022/12/24/ukr...o-days-in-a-row

The US is definitely passing targeting info to Ukraine

# ? Dec 26, 2022 22:49

Endman: May 18, 2010; That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even anime may die

Atrocious Joe posted:

https://twitter.com/neil_abrams/status/1607225499134074880?t=-aWkaKn0GvQKCxawEo_JvA&s=19
https://twitter.com/neil_abrams/status/1607227048866488321?t=WLgJokzJS7N3K8c_1UyX6Q&s=19

hmm

Hmmmmm

HMMM

# ? Dec 26, 2022 23:03

PawParole: Nov 16, 2019

stephenthinkpad posted:

UN3.0 UNSC reform: US, China, EU, Russia+ (Eurasia Union) , Common Wealth, African Union

And the meeting should be hosted in these 6 regions on rotation.

No more blocking the mother loving 1st Ave.

the African Union is paid for by and is a subsidiary of the European Union, so you are giving Brussels two seats

# ? Dec 26, 2022 23:28

Dawncloack: Nov 26, 2007; ECKS DEE!; Nap Ghost

PawParole posted:

the African Union is paid for by and is a subsidiary of the European Union, so you are giving Brussels two seats

Wait what? Do you have some reading on that?

# ? Dec 26, 2022 23:52

Lostconfused: Oct 1, 2008

Atrocious Joe posted:

if the seat goes to the larger constituent part, how come India didn't get the UK's seat

The commonwealth of nations still exists.

# ? Dec 26, 2022 23:53

DesertIslandHermit: Oct 7, 2019; It's beautiful. And it's for the god of...of...arts and crafts. I think that's what he said.

Civil War II and World War II II

# ? Dec 27, 2022 00:19

Jel Shaker: Apr 19, 2003

Starsfan posted:

It's wild to me that almost a year later the Ukrainian army is still basically In the suburbs of Donetsk. I'm sure Russia has been doing important things elsewhere but they really need to get around to clearing those guys out of the neighborhood

yes to me this really underlines how this war isn�t really being done to protect the civilians in the new bits of russia/ separatists republics

# ? Dec 27, 2022 00:22

Lostconfused: Oct 1, 2008

Jel Shaker posted:

yes to me this really underlines how this war isn�t really being done to protect the civilians in the new bits of russia/ separatists republics

It's not being done to protect old bits of Russia either then.

# ? Dec 27, 2022 00:25

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# ? May 24, 2024 20:44

lobotomy molo: May 7, 2007; by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Lostconfused posted:

It's not being done to protect old bits of Russia either then.

or ukraine either

maybe this whole war thing is a goddamn racket

# ? Dec 27, 2022 01:15

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > [Ukraine] EU: Nice minister, shame if something were to happen...

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