|
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3utO5bNkdvg&t=180s
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2022 16:33
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 10, 2024 20:01 |
|
|
checkplease posted:I do agree that the movie arc is that Quaritch-Blue is now not the old one, just has the same memories. But if we just kept living, we could change also and perhaps not resemble our selves 50 years ago. I like to think at least that adult parent me differs from college me. It’s not about changing personalities or what not. A backup clone doesn’t help me avoid death. Quaritch still dies, feels the pain of death, and then ceases to exist. The fact that there’s another person with his memories implanted grown years later. Likewise if a rich person pays for an avatar backup, it’s not going to help him with a death from old age. There will be someone who acts like him and has his memories, so maybe if he cares about legacy or being remembered it’s nice, but his own conscious experience of the world will still cease. If you never age at all though, well then you can hypothetically continue your experience of the world forever. So long as you don’t get in a car crash or something.
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2022 16:40
|
|
|
Avatar bodies also grow old and die, presumably, so if you're willing to become a blue alien you still have to repeat the process if you want your memories to live on. The Na'vi have solved this already by becoming one with Eywa after their death.
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2022 16:45
|
|
|
The only connection you ever have to past consciousness is memories encoded in your brain. It's not like it's a cup of water being sloshed from one container to another, it's an emergent phenomenon. After all it's not as if you're experiencing every moment of your life simultaneously; what makes you think your consciousness as of yesterday (or five minutes ago) exists right now? (Granted Avatar explicitly having alien gods that can swap souls around might add a certain wrinkle to this in Cameron's setting.  )
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2022 16:48
|
|
|
I guess Sully's method of transplanting his mind into an Avatar and then using tree magic to make it permanent could theoretically result in immortality? It's not implied that human Sully actually died when he was reborn blue - couldn't they just keep doing that with new bodies rather than saving a backup? (Obviously you could still die of anything other than old age but it's a start).
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2022 17:14
|
|
|
Bugblatter posted:It’s not about changing personalities or what not. A backup clone doesn’t help me avoid death. Quaritch still dies, feels the pain of death, and then ceases to exist. The fact that there’s another person with his memories implanted grown years later. Likewise if a rich person pays for an avatar backup, it’s not going to help him with a death from old age. There will be someone who acts like him and has his memories, so maybe if he cares about legacy or being remembered it’s nice, but his own conscious experience of the world will still cease. We can probably imagine a scenario where the super rich in avatar just changed bodies every 10 years or so to stay continually young. In this way they are safe from aging and car crashes. But they have to believe as you say that their consciousnesses is the same in each. Ghost in the Shell explores this with the cyber brains and ‘ghosts’, but Avatar so far hasn’t explored this. What defines a person’s consciousness- memories, a personality and decision matrix that can be mapped, and some other quality? When they control the avatars remotely we say they are still the same person. But when Jake fully becomes a Navi, he claims he is born again, though he has the same memory and personality. So is new Quaritch kind of lesser version of Navi mind transferring. I do agree that an anti aging juice will be the easier sell to people vs body swapping. Super makeup vs weird philosophical puzzles. Thinking now, I kind of think New Quaritch is more like his child than a copy. He’s got a different body with similar features and remembers his dads lessons (sully bad, army good). But he makes his own new decisions with his own adventures. So he and Spider are really brothers in parallel to the Sully kids.
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2022 17:15
|
|
|
Yeah. Did Jake Sully transfer his soul or just copy it?
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2022 17:19
|
|
|
Mordiceius posted:Yeah. Did Jake Sully transfer his soul or just copy it? There's no way to know! Avatar 3: Existential Crisis coming along nicely
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2022 17:32
|
|
|
Was there any dialog about the Metkayina having a different dialect than the Omatikaya? I was just thinking how odd it is that they've lived in a different environment long enough to genetically develop significant physical differences (paddle-like forearms, longer tails, etc) yet they still understand each other perfectly.
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2022 17:55
|
|
|
Speaking of the whales and their philosophy of nonviolence, I really liked the exchange the younger brother had where he was going real hard into "this whale regrets it! He'll never do it again!" Only for the whale to murder half a boat of people ten minutes later.
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2022 17:57
|
|
|
Yeah, when he said that I was thinking "are you sure about that?"Mister Speaker posted:I was just thinking how odd it is that they've lived in a different environment long enough to genetically develop significant physical differences (paddle-like forearms, longer tails, etc) yet they still understand each other perfectly.
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2022 18:07
|
|
|
Quarritch says he's a different person, but he still cares for his son even though they're not related, and put himself in danger for his son. It's the same guy IMO
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2022 18:09
|
|
|
Terror Sweat posted:Quarritch says he's a different person, but he still cares for his son even though they're not related, and put himself in danger for his son. It's the same guy IMO I think it's the opposite - OG Quaritch wouldn't have given a drat about his son. New Coke Quaritch does because he's a different person and the only experiences he's ever actually had in his life have been with Spider at his side.
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2022 18:12
|
|
|
Tuxedo Catfish posted:The only connection you ever have to past consciousness is memories encoded in your brain. It's not like it's a cup of water being sloshed from one container to another, it's an emergent phenomenon. After all it's not as if you're experiencing every moment of your life simultaneously; what makes you think your consciousness as of yesterday (or five minutes ago) exists right now? I hear you but it still feels very different to me. Even if something has all of my memories, I still would classify it as another being and not myself, since I’m thinking independently of the clone and vice versa. Like if Quaritch lived but they still made a clone of him, they wouldn’t be thought of as the exact same being. I think the analogy of the clones more as children is a good analogy. Overall though, rich people being as self centered as they are would definitely choose the goo over the clone. It is interesting thinking about how that technology plays out. I could see many people opting to have the clones with their memories instead of children. And people instating their clones as successors to their hierarchies as opposed to anyone else. But that’s not the focus of this series, so I’ll digress.
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2022 18:25
|
|
|
New Coke Quaritch is a science experiment where you leave someone's PTSD but take away all their traumatic brain injuries
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2022 18:41
|
|
|
Yawgmoft posted:Speaking of the whales and their philosophy of nonviolence, I really liked the exchange the younger brother had where he was going real hard into "this whale regrets it! He'll never do it again!" Only for the whale to murder half a boat of people ten minutes later. And that was after the whale introduced himself by murdering the Ikthysaur.
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2022 18:43
|
|
|
Tuxedo Catfish posted:The only connection you ever have to past consciousness is memories encoded in your brain. It's not like it's a cup of water being sloshed from one container to another, it's an emergent phenomenon. After all it's not as if you're experiencing every moment of your life simultaneously; what makes you think your consciousness as of yesterday (or five minutes ago) exists right now? Nah. I'm me, the clone is someone else 
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2022 19:22
|
|
|
 I watched this film again to see my favourite part
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2022 19:31
|
|
|
Bedshaped posted:
Forgot about that lmfao
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2022 19:35
|
|
|
I hope he sentChristmas cards back to his Scientist bros with that picture. Also you think they made Spider take the pic or just had him wait outside the frame?
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2022 19:46
|
|
|
Mordiceius posted:Yeah. Did Jake Sully transfer his soul or just copy it? Megaman's Jockstrap posted:There's no way to know! Avatar 3: Existential Crisis coming along nicely It's actually pretty easy to know, because souls aren't "transferable" through any kind of objective process. Quarritch 2's relationship to Spidey is that of an uncle - or, at least, most analogous to that. To say that the twin brother shares the same soul would be a religious belief. In the same way, the Jakesully in Avatar 2 is literally not the same character as in Avatar 1. So, again: a more interesting film might explore how Neytiri feels about this. It's also kind of a weird mark against Eywa, since there's here's no particular reason that Jakesully's brother (Jake Sully) had to die. The only explanation is that Eywa euthanized Jake in order to maintain the illusion of an objective soul transfer.
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2022 19:51
|
|
|
Wasn't Jake dying before the transference because he spent too long breathing the native air?
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2022 20:07
|
|
|
Macdeo Lurjtux posted:Wasn't Jake dying before the transference because he spent too long breathing the native air? He recovered and was transferred later.
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2022 20:37
|
|
|
SuperMechagodzilla posted:It's actually pretty easy to know, because souls aren't "transferable" through any kind of objective process. Quarritch 2's relationship to Spidey is that of an uncle - or, at least, most analogous to that. To say that the twin brother shares the same soul would be a religious belief. Any recommendations for films that explore similar ideas?
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2022 20:54
|
|
|
ghostwritingduck posted:He recovered and was transferred later. One thing though is that before the final soul transfer, they take his mask off, effectively letting him choke on the air.
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2022 20:55
|
|
|
checkplease posted:Any recommendations for films that explore similar ideas? CHAPPIE
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2022 21:01
|
|
|
SuperMechagodzilla posted:CHAPPIE I would rather die than watch die antwoord
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2022 22:10
|
|
|
Vir posted:The first movie did show that they gathered the other tribes together. Can they communicate through Eywa also? Unless it's a major retcon, the 'sea people' they gathered together in the first film are not the same as the Metkayina we see in TWOW. Their structures look the same but physically they're identical to the forest people - no green skin, wide-set eyes, huge tails or paddle-like forearms.
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2022 22:26
|
|
|
!Klams posted:
This is really weird to me because I'm an avid diver as well and have dove all over the world and I got the opposite feeling. This is the first movie where I actually felt like I was diving with the underwater shots, and it made me miss it a lot (I haven't dove since pre-Covid, sadly). Also, thats kind of a weird take on space whales to me. Dolphins and whales seem to have near-human intelligence and mantas are kind of close when you get to fish. Cameron seems to make Pandora just basically Earth, so of course the whales are super smart just like ours. It's just that Navi can understand their language, while we can't understand our whales' language.
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2022 22:33
|
|
|
Simulation883 posted:Overall though, rich people being as self centered as they are would definitely choose the goo over the clone. It is interesting thinking about how that technology plays out. I could see many people opting to have the clones with their memories instead of children. And people instating their clones as successors to their hierarchies as opposed to anyone else. But that’s not the focus of this series, so I’ll digress. Pretty much, although I think clinical immortality for rich people is almost within society's grasp, whale juice or no, given how decrepit our current ruling class is.
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2022 22:37
|
|
|
Mister Speaker posted:Unless it's a major retcon, the 'sea people' they gathered together in the first film are not the same as the Metkayina we see in TWOW. Their structures look the same but physically they're identical to the forest people - no green skin, wide-set eyes, huge tails or paddle-like forearms. If human ethnography is anything to go by, there are probably more than a dozen groups on the planet who call themselves the "Sea People"
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2022 22:53
|
|
|
Mister Speaker posted:Unless it's a major retcon, the 'sea people' they gathered together in the first film are not the same as the Metkayina we see in TWOW. Their structures look the same but physically they're identical to the forest people - no green skin, wide-set eyes, huge tails or paddle-like forearms. I rewatched it especially because I was wondering about that too. They're "the Ikran People of the Eastern Sea", and as the name implies they ride Ikrans and not flying fish. They're a different tribe although you can maybe see them as a prototype of the Tahitian Navi in Cameron's mind.
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2022 23:44
|
|
|
Do we know how big Pandora's actually supposed to be? Sci fi set in space always makes different planets feel tiny, with a single society living in a single biome. If they're angling for each of these to be set in a whole different continent then there's potential to make it feel like an actual place.
|
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2022 23:48
|
|
|
When you die you don't go to heaven. You just have a clone made of you up there. It's false advertising. I have a question, why did Jake leave the forest Navi? It didn't seem like a good motivation to get them to the water. Like, he was going to leave to protect the forest Navi, by drawing their attention away. But he doesn't tell the humans he's leaving, so what's to stop them from doing exactly what they did later on in the movie, going to the villages and interrogating/burning them and their houses in order to get info on where they are? Edit: Added spoiler text, my bad. Bar Patron fucked around with this message at 00:07 on Dec 30, 2022 |
|
#
?
Dec 29, 2022 23:50
|
|
|
Darko posted:Also, thats kind of a weird take on space whales to me. Dolphins and whales seem to have near-human intelligence and mantas are kind of close when you get to fish. Cameron seems to make Pandora just basically Earth, so of course the whales are super smart just like ours. It's just that Navi can understand their language, while we can't understand our whales' language. My point is, in the film, they say out loud "They are smarter than humans, and feel more emotions than humans" and I don't think they need to do this, nor do I really get why this was in the script? It doesn't explain anything we see, (they actually do not behave as though they understand that they're much bigger and much more dangerous in a group than the boat hunting them, if they would only turn around en-masse and attack they could easily overpower the whalers, the implication is that for a year the hunters have been doing this and the whales haven't adapted) and it somewhat takes away from the message that whaling / overfishing on Earth is bad, because it suggests the only reason that it matters here is because they're not less than human (and by inference that regular whales are).
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2022 00:08
|
|
|
Mister Speaker posted:Unless it's a major retcon, the 'sea people' they gathered together in the first film are not the same as the Metkayina we see in TWOW. Their structures look the same but physically they're identical to the forest people - no green skin, wide-set eyes, huge tails or paddle-like forearms. Kuiperdolin posted:I rewatched it especially because I was wondering about that too. They're "the Ikran People of the Eastern Sea", and as the name implies they ride Ikrans and not flying fish. They're a different tribe although you can maybe see them as a prototype of the Tahitian Navi in Cameron's mind.
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2022 00:10
|
|
|
Yeah, that all makes sense.stev posted:Do we know how big Pandora's actually supposed to be? Quaritch mentions in the first movie that the gravity is lower; IDK enough about physics to know if this necessarily means it's smaller but I think so. Not-EDIT: A quick Google search says it's about 3/4 the size of Earth. Am I imagining things again, or did Cameron say something around the release of the first film that further sequels will explore entirely different moons of the gas giant Polyphemus, or was it just other regions on Pandora? Apparently there are 14 of them that are habitable; how the Na'vi spread across them if we do explore them is going to be the subject of a lot of scrutiny.
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2022 00:27
|
|
|
!Klams posted:My point is, in the film, they say out loud "They are smarter than humans, and feel more emotions than humans" and I don't think they need to do this, nor do I really get why this was in the script? It's to help bore out any empathy from a cold heart after seeing a mother whale and her calf brutally murdered OP. I'd argue it's in the script for anyone in the audience ignorant or even resistant to the idea that giant whales -- like those here on Earth -- could be sentient/intelligent, have language, compose music, etc., and would otherwise not feel anything towards them being hunted because, as they are ignorant, would see them as just animals, when clearly they are much, much more than that.
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2022 00:27
|
|
|
Bar Patron posted:When you die you don't go to heaven. You just have a clone made of you up there. It's false advertising. Jake knew he was being hunted and didn’t want to bring that risk to his family. That’s why he left. I think it was assumed that Quaritch would find out he’s missing after a while, which did seem to happen. Jake used to be front in center leading the chargers after all. Remember the humans don’t find Jake until he has to call for the med ship. That’s when they determine he’s somewhere in the islands. Until they then has no clue and quaritch was just learning to be Navi with spider. So Jake’s plan did work for a while.
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2022 00:39
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 10, 2024 20:01 |
|
|
Mister Speaker posted:Yeah, that all makes sense. It depends on the internal composition. Mars and Mercury have comparable surface gravity despite the former having over two and a half times the volume.
|
|
#
?
Dec 30, 2022 00:57
|
|
