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*Disclaimer* I just work for the place, I am not management, a crew scheduler, IT, programmer or a scheduling savant. I’ll tell you what I know but don’t think for a second I have all of the answers, just insights. Lets take the seat13b.com article and break it down claim by claim: “When it suits them Southwest says, in effect, “we’re a small carrier serving small places, the rules shouldn’t really apply to us” (whether its safety or anything else)” Southwest Airlines is, by the authors own admission, the largest domestic airline in the US and one of the largest airlines in the world by fleet count. Southwest is bound by the same rules and regulations as any other part 121 carrier and to my knowledge doesn’t attempt to skirt those rules by claiming its too small to be regulated like the “big guys”. There is a perception by the flying public that Southwest is still the scrappy little Texas airline it was back in the 70’s and 80’s, which the company doesn’t attempt to disabuse people of, because it does help them when things go wrong. Also, the author provides no examples of when Southwest makes these claims and merely wishes to put this idea in the heads of readers that Southwest is unsafe because of what is happening. Thats not true, its never been true and I take issue with anyone claiming the airline is unsafe as a matter of course. As far as the authors claims about Amadeus, I can’t comment on that. Amadeus is our reservation software and I have no idea what it touches or how its integrated into the rest of SWA’s IT infrastructure. I suspect the author doesn’t either. The authors claims about hotels is also strange, as Southwest will offer vouchers to customers for hotels, food and the like. They try like hell not to, but thats capitalism. The interline argument is true, and I hope they try to fix that going forward; however I think that due to every other airline booked pretty solid over the holidays, any interline agreement would be helpful but not lifesaving. The Authors claim about turning airplanes in less than 30 minutes isn’t true and hasn’t been true since the 90’s. Our turns are at minimum 35 minutes and for -800’s and max’s more like 45 minutes. Nitpicking for sure but hey, this person wants to be seen as an expert and is getting basic facts wrong. The statement about “tight loops” is also factually wrong, as is the claim that this is done as a cost saving measure because then SWA doesn’t have to pay for hotels. The “tight loops” the author is talking about is what’s called a “turn” in industry jargon and is basically a trip that starts and ends at a crew base on the same day. Turns accounted for just 11% of the available trips in December and January’s (the most recent months I have access to) bid packet for pilots and I suspect its similar for flight attendants as well. The vast majority of pairings are 3 day trips at 59% of total, with 2 and 4 day trips being about equal at roughly 15% each. The claims about hotels are also wrong. Southwest reserves hotel rooms for all anticipated crew members at a certain city plus a number of extras just in case a crew ends up in a city they weren’t originally scheduled to be in. The problem here is that with crews scattered all over hell and gone there weren’t enough hotel rooms reserved to meet the demand caused by the meltdown. There is a policy in place that allows flight crew members to find their own accommodations and then be reimbursed by the company if scheduling hasn’t found a place for them to stay 30 minutes after they park at the gate. Personally I hate this policy because I’m not in the business of giving my employer an interest free loan because they didn’t hire enough people to staff the hotel desk. The paragraph about essentially stopping the airline to rebuild the schedule is unfortunately true and while they didn’t stop flying altogether they're running about 30% of normal to get people and airplanes where they need to be. The author then brings up the widely circulated memo from the VP of ground ops that laid the blame for Denver’s problems at the rank and file of ground ops’ feet. Blaming the front line rampers, gate and ticket agents and provisioners for not being adequately staffed or equipped with extreme weather gear is some real bullshit and I hope that guy loses his job. gently caress him. But the author also claims that these people are also going to fly in airplanes and thats unsafe? Not true, that memo was not addressed to flight crews. Also, and lets be real here, but I would bet that a majority of people calling out sick in Denver weren’t actually sick and didn’t want to come in because a. Its a blizzard with windchill temps -30f and below b. Its Christmas weekend and c. gently caress you I’m making 15 bucks an hour and i’m not going to drive in this terrible weather all the drat way up to the airport that they built drat near to Kansas and then wait in this cold for an hour at the employee lot for the stupid bus to take me to the terminal and then get mandatoried into a double shift and then lose my next 3 days off. This was a management failure to prepare for the worst and absolutely the wrong people will be punished for it. The paragraph about reserve manning is hilarious and this is where they really show their rear end. Southwest does have reserve manning. 20% and more of pilots are held in reserve every day. Flight attendants too and at higher percentages and many of them have to sit at the airport to do it. Southwest also has airplanes held in reserve all over the system too. This whole thing is not a problem of broken airplanes or manning issues. I’ll say it more clearly: Southwest had plenty of airplanes and flight crew members going into the holiday weekend, and management made plenty of noise about this earlier in the month. The problem was the management of all of these things, and thats where it all went wrong. Also, the cherry picking of Quantas flying a 380 to rescue another 380 is hilarious because its a story about a company flying one airplane to help one other airplane on one route. Southwest would’ve needed a whole separate airline to bail them out of their problems so this is a stupid analogy. The author then slides into cynical hyperbole and claims that Southwest is gonna gently caress you because of contract of carriage and blame it all on the weather and good luck getting to see meemaw anytime in 1Q 2023. Maybe that will be true. I betting not, since Southwest’s corporate management places a huge amount of worth in the public perception of the company and I wouldn’t doubt that there will be a huge goodwill campaign to help the company’s image. I know this is a ton of  and I’ll end with this: Southwest deserves most of the criticism thats been levied against it. They tried to run a schedule with the highest number of flights per day not seen since 2019 over a holiday weekend they knew had the likelihood of being bad. Hell my phone was telling me of extremely low temps in Texas nearly a week before it actually happened. Southwest management decided to not take any preventive measures and roll the dice on everything working out.But what Southwest does not deserve are the accusations that what is happening is because the airline is unsafe. It is not, repeat not, unsafe. Southwest is safe because it cannot afford to be unsafe. Unsafe practices cost money and if its one thing Southwest knows how to to it is controlling their costs, so every practice, policy, training event and revenue flight starts and ends with safety. tldr: flying is dumb and drive if you have to really get somewhere.
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Dec 29, 2022 16:49
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Hadlock posted:This is really quite true oh god I love making non-technical people stare into the abyss by explaining the time zone file https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tz_database
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Dec 29, 2022 16:51
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bull3964 posted:When you cancel over 50% of your flights over multiple days, there's a very strong case for charging fraud because they aren't exactly delivering the product that they sold. There is no case at all for fraud, let alone a strong one.. The customers are being refunded, and when you purchase the tickets you agree that the airline can cancel your flight in return for reimbursement.
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Dec 29, 2022 17:09
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Mortabis posted:The customers are being refunded, and when you purchase the tickets you agree that the airline can cancel your flight in return for reimbursement. There's a lot of "it depends" in there. And reimbursement can vary as far as what it actually means. https://www.transportation.gov/individuals/aviation-consumer-protection/refunds
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Dec 29, 2022 17:33
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where is this “booked solid” thing coming from? Friends and family booked tickets at all levels due to this. 800 F direct mid con with a days notice 400 Y booked in 2 days 30k mileage redemptions for flights next day 10k mileage redemption (on Jan 1 but still) I understand the memes going around of folks looking for the next flight out / last seat available /most direct flight and claiming price gouging but I saw plenty of “reasonable” (not thousand+) options. I’m sure there are plenty of routes that were solid and not everyone has the ability to re-book and double their travel costs but I have to think an interline agreement would have helped here
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Dec 29, 2022 17:39
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Arson Daily posted:Also, and lets be real here, but I would bet that a majority of people calling out sick in Denver weren’t actually sick and didn’t want to come in because a. Its a blizzard with windchill temps -30f and below b. Its Christmas weekend and c. gently caress you I’m making 15 bucks an hour and i’m not going to drive in this terrible weather all the drat way up to the airport that they built drat near to Kansas and then wait in this cold for an hour at the employee lot for the stupid bus to take me to the terminal and then get mandatoried into a double shift and then lose my next 3 days off. This was a management failure to prepare for the worst and absolutely the wrong people will be punished for it. gently caress this take. This isn’t the first Christmas, not the first extreme temp event and the airport hasn’t recently moved. Believe your employees and treat them right. Southwest has good folks who work as hard as they can and go above and beyond for their lovely company. This has proven it.
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Dec 29, 2022 17:46
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Arson Daily posted:
here's the one (1) thing in that seat13b article that talks about safety: "seat31b posted:Given Southwest’s checkered past with safety, will they pressure employees to work when they really aren’t fit to fly? I personally hope the FAA is watching. this is indeed sort of a bullshit thing to say (what checkered past?), and it's kind of a driveby, but it's also a single sentence in the middle of a long article and honestly is probably worth considering at least a little bit - what makes the corporate culture around flying so separate from the corporate culture around ground ops, and what guarantees are there that it stays separate? as for the rest of it, the relative lack of turn scheduling thing is a good point, and sure i guess the guy's wrong by 10-15 minutes on average time to turn an airplane, but you started this conversation with Arson Daily posted:That's 13b article is factually incorrect, the author has little idea of how southwest operates and the only part I agree with is adopting the eu regulations concerning passenger compensation. and then called out those two things, said you couldn't really comment on amadeus, agreed with the hotel scheduling, agreed with the bad treatment of ground ops, etc etc. so i'm pretty much inclined to take the article as being correct except for in the small details you called out.
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Dec 29, 2022 18:07
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Dec 29, 2022 18:24
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sellouts posted:gently caress this take. I completely agree and believe you've taken my words out of context. The people out on the ramp do the hardest, most thankless job in the company and their reward for this hard work is to be thrown under the bus by some suit in Dallas. I understand not wanting to risk life, limb and time with family for a company that doesn't equip you properly or even pay you properly for the job you're doing and back them fully for not wanting to get involved in another management shitshow
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Dec 29, 2022 18:45
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Arson Daily posted:I completely agree and believe you've taken my words out of context. The people out on the ramp do the hardest, most thankless job in the company and their reward for this hard work is to be thrown under the bus by some suit in Dallas. I understand not wanting to risk life, limb and time with family for a company that doesn't equip you properly or even pay you properly for the job you're doing and back them fully for not wanting to get involved in another management shitshow Yeah, that's how I read your original comment. When your pay is drastically out of line with expectations and working conditions, or when working conditions are so poo poo for so long that it's not worth any amount of money, the risks the suits run is that people will just stop showing up, because it's not legal to enslave people and literally force them to work. And that's what happened; good for them! Whether they told a fib about being sick or not doesn't really matter to me.
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Dec 29, 2022 19:01
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Hadlock posted:This is really quite true It’s also happened multiple times because node.js is a goddamn nightmare though iirc it’s happened elsewhere as well.
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Dec 29, 2022 19:32
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Well, I mean, sure WN is having problems, but how are things north of the border? https://twitter.com/cp24/status/1608437181961457664?s=21 https://twitter.com/mblairyqr/status/1608540824161198080?s=21 …to shreds, you say? EDIT: For context, Sunwing is far and away our worst airline, and there are these stories multiple times a year stretching back as long as they've been around. People still fly them because "OOOOH! SLIGHTLY CHEAPER, HOW CAN I LOSE?" Part of the problem is that there's no particular support for changing the regulatory environment until something of this nature happens. No one wants a regulatory environment that will increase ticket prices and decrease the availability of direct flights, until all hell breaks loose. Arguably airlines should not be allowed to take these sorts of scheduling risks (different from operational risks, which they're forbidden from taking, because we don't want planes crashing) because the consumer does not fully understand the risk they're choosing to take until it's too late, but if anyone tries it, all you'll hear is "why the gently caress is air travel so expensive now??? What happened to my direct flight from East Bumblefuck to Bahia del Culo???" PT6A fucked around with this message at 20:38 on Dec 29, 2022 |
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Dec 29, 2022 20:25
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Wasn’t it Sun Country that cancelled a few return flights from Mexico because of weather and since they were the last flights of the season they just refunded the ticket and told people they were on their own?
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Dec 29, 2022 20:32
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Two Kings posted:Wasn’t it Sun Country that cancelled a few return flights from Mexico because of weather and since they were the last flights of the season they just refunded the ticket and told people they were on their own? Different airline, similar name and ethos, and it would not surprise me out of either one.
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Dec 29, 2022 20:39
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Hadlock posted:Some guy had a package that, I forget, did something really trivial like compare two numbers and return the bigger one this is what happens when people learn to code from youtube 
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Dec 29, 2022 20:41
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Arson Daily posted:I completely agree and believe you've taken my words out of context. The people out on the ramp do the hardest, most thankless job in the company and their reward for this hard work is to be thrown under the bus by some suit in Dallas. I understand not wanting to risk life, limb and time with family for a company that doesn't equip you properly or even pay you properly for the job you're doing and back them fully for not wanting to get involved in another management shitshow I posted exactly what you said without removing anything. There’s not any context missing. “But let’s be real”. Nah, I don’t think anyone gets to question them in any way. Southwest employees deal with bullshit at all positions, they’re all really great people and have proven throughout this that the day to day operations folks go above and beyond. They do this job through these conditions all the time, it just doesn’t get the attention when things don’t melt down in a historic way. You can address the problems you listed without questioning their intentions for not being able to go to work. Call the company out for these issues. Those problems are company wide, the storm crippled the nation, and the pay sucks across the board.
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Dec 29, 2022 21:15
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I'm not questioning their intentions for not going to work, I'm stating them outright: they didn't want to work hard, in brutal conditions, for long periods of time, for low pay, over the holidays. I don't think anyone can blame them, and it's a management problem to allow that situation to occur, because as you've noted, these are people who, in general, do go above and beyond consistently, and always work hard. That they might have said something else to their boss to justify it is irrelevant. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhMpEpivAcQ
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Dec 29, 2022 21:41
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I disagree that even saying the phrase “didn’t want to work hard” is okay in any context. I also disagree about “being real” and not taking calling in sick as being sick during a pandemic. But totally weird it didn’t happen elsewhere in the Southwest network.
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Dec 29, 2022 21:50
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I got so burned by mainline legacy carriers the last time I tried to fly anywhere that I've completely given up on the entire concept. Wasn't even a holiday or bad weather or anything, just that day this summer when LGA had a meltdown out of nowhere and I found out my flight was cancelled 20 minutes before I was leaving for the airport by trying to check in on my phone. They never sent a notification. Still beats the hell out of all the poor saps that found out their connections were cancelled after they landed there.
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Dec 29, 2022 22:09
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"didn't want to work hard, in brutal conditions, for long periods of time, for low pay, over the holidays" Which is a perfectly reasonable position, I sure as poo poo wouldn't want to either. Selectively editing that down to "didn't want to work hard" or why not just trim down further to "didn't want to work" is the Fox News narrative of their actions.
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Dec 29, 2022 22:09
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WN spent a bunch of time and effort loving around with Boeing to game type requirements for the MAX, which ended up killing a bunch of people, so yeah I think it’s pretty fair to call them actively unsafe.
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Dec 29, 2022 22:13
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Nah, it’s not. It’s having basic respect for proud folks doing a really tough job that they all do day in and day out in these (and worse) conditions nationwide during previous holidays for the same lovely pay. I don’t know why one station can’t have people be sick and have it just be accepted as that. Why does it have to be about grinding an axe with management when all of the posts from employees that I’ve seen are explaining that they’re doing everything they can to work. No one wants holidays disrupted for passengers, the selflessness of the average Southwest employee is incredible. But at least we’re all in agreement that Southwest management/executives is to blame here. KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:WN spent a bunch of time and effort loving around with Boeing to game type requirements for the MAX, which ended up killing a bunch of people, so yeah I think it’s pretty fair to call them actively unsafe. lol didn’t think of this, great point sellouts fucked around with this message at 22:21 on Dec 29, 2022 |
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Dec 29, 2022 22:18
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I was sitting in Atlanta on Friday the 16th of this month and overheard some lady calling Spirit Airlines customer service because, as she said, the gate was changed for her flight and nothing at the original gate told her of this. That conversation went from zero to 100 when the CS agent told her the next flight they could get her on was Monday.
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Dec 30, 2022 00:16
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Arson Daily posted:*Disclaimer* I just work for the place Aeronautical Insanity: drive if you have to really get somewhere
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Dec 30, 2022 00:16
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Some of the planes are coming in half full of COVID cases. It’s not that unreasonable that a ton of people are actually sick. Delta tried to pencilwhip the problem last year, and it didn’t work.
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Dec 30, 2022 00:21
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Hadlock posted:I'm always amused when people find out that nearly all modern society is barely kept afloat by nearly 40 year old software, maintained by 4 guys in a room in the basement That so many companies & government entities are still relying on COBOL and FORTRAN, it's some real ouroboros poo poo that they haven't upgraded to, say, 2005.
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Dec 30, 2022 02:33
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I’m just gonna drop in with a hearty gently caress you to anyone who doesn’t think it’s okay to use a odd sick day here and there if you just don’t feel like doing to work that day. Take that mental health day, you’ve earned it. Yeah I’m sick, sick of work.  Don’t want me to use sick days? Don’t give them to me. Oh wait legally you have to, get hosed, corporations.
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Dec 30, 2022 03:05
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Saying to my boss "I don't want to accept the 2 day extension into my days off because its my wedding anniversary and I prefer to maintain a more equal work/life balance so no thank you" isn't going to work. "I'm sick" or "I'm fatigued" are the only ways for me to maintain that balance and it isn't an indictment of my work ethic. Me speculating about the reasons for higher than usual sick calls during a blizzard over a holiday weekend is not an indictment of their work ethic, either.
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Dec 30, 2022 04:28
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sellouts posted:Nah, it’s not. Like a page into this, I'm still not understanding if you're saying that they were sick, or they were not.
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Dec 30, 2022 04:34
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PainterofCrap posted:That so many companies & government entities are still relying on COBOL and FORTRAN, it's some real ouroboros poo poo that they haven't upgraded to, say, 2005. shhhh I'm trying to break into that racket and so can you https://www.ibm.com/it-infrastructure/z/education/zxplore
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Dec 30, 2022 04:36
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BIG HEADLINE posted:4K footage of a recovery and launch of a Rafale M on the Truman: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKxtaJkK7IA
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Dec 30, 2022 06:03
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slidebite posted:I love that poo poo. Do they just do that poo poo for interoperability? Does the USN land on Charles de Gaulle periodically? Yes, actually: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOIhKtvWQYU These are legacy Hornets, though. No clue if the Super Hornet can do it as well. And evidently back in 2018 the French Navy actually had assets (Rafales and Hawkeyes) on a detachment at Oceana and on the Bush: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_UeD4-GhzE BIG HEADLINE fucked around with this message at 06:18 on Dec 30, 2022 |
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Dec 30, 2022 06:11
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vessbot posted:Like a page into this, I'm still not understanding if you're saying that they were sick, or they were not. If they said they are sick, they are sick. Believe them, especially during a pandemic, with poor public policy in regards to testing, during flu season, and with rsv and whatever else is going around. That entire company at the ground level is staffed with selfless folks who clearly are working extremely hard to not ruin anyones holiday in even worse and more trying conditions than the weather event itself. Just believe them if they say they’re sick and blame management for not staffing up to deal with this, not having compassionate policy in regards to telemedicine or preventative care to help folks get better. Don’t read the other poo poo into it (even if those complaints are valid)
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Dec 30, 2022 06:32
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slidebite posted:I love that poo poo. Do they just do that poo poo for interoperability? Does the USN land on Charles de Gaulle periodically? I believe the USA and France are the only two countries that still operate carriers with catapults, so they probably do it just to swing their dicks around
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Dec 30, 2022 06:51
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Ramps are for quitters and places that don’t properly appreciate the ar that is the opening of Top Gun.
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Dec 30, 2022 07:14
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Warbird posted:Ramps are for quitters Especially the Southwest ramp at Denver apparently
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Dec 30, 2022 07:16
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https://mobile.twitter.com/BernieSanders/status/1608535238476697600
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Dec 30, 2022 08:28
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Hadlock posted:This is really quite true I worked with a material supplier that had that guy. He had a heart attack and died and the company actually folded because no one knew what the gently caress his code did. Where I work now is similar, an exemployee paid huge consultation fees to remote in and run some database stuffs once a month. Funny thing is I've been here maybe 8 years and only just been made aware by overhearing stuff the correct way to do a certain function. 8 years of 10% loss of income to the bosses. I'm staying quiet as I still don't have that info officially. gently caress the establishment.
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Dec 30, 2022 11:39
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PainterofCrap posted:That so many companies & government entities are still relying on COBOL and FORTRAN, it's some real ouroboros poo poo that they haven't upgraded to, say, 2005. I took a 1 credit course in Fortran as a joke in my freshman year of college. Two decades later it's still the only language I use at work.
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Dec 30, 2022 11:56
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luminalflux posted:Especially the Southwest ramp at Denver apparently Goddamn
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Dec 30, 2022 13:26
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