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Wolfsheim posted:This is tricky because 'Kylo and Rey kill Snoke and all his guards and then he asks her to join him' is the most exciting scene in the entire ST and I feel like structuring the movie to end there would have let the hype train run wild and overwhelmed the haters vs. the rest of the movie limping back to a safe spot My ideal ending would be Rey implicitly joining Kylo after the fight, where we would see the First Order fleet jump away into hyperspace and leave the Resistance alone. There could then be some ambiguity whether Rey was a hostage that had to be saved, or a willing participant. They could do pretty much anything with it in the third film.
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Dec 29, 2022 18:28
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If there were a way to fit leia dying into the rey ambiguously joining kylo thing that probably would have been best of all, from a giving star wars 9 a fighting chance POV. But maybe that entails moving so many pieces around it's just a different movie at that point
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Dec 29, 2022 18:35
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Grendels Dad posted:Yeah, Gonz posted:Force Ghost Luke relentlessly trolling Kylo in Episode IX after teasing such a thing at the end of TLJ would've been fantastic. porfiria posted:I mean, Rian Johnson wasn't operating in a vacuum, and he wasn't even in charge. Why didn't Kathleen Kennedy demand a more open-ended ending? There are a trillion things they wouldn't have let him do, so why'd they let him do that? No Mods No Masters posted:I mean it didn't, but that's just because trevorrow and jj both just decided to ignore everything (which to be fair star wars 8 itself seems to endorse at several points). Put it this way, a third film that actually dealt with all of rian's gremlin "setup" would have been in quite a corner Nightmare Cinema posted:A lot of concept art and a full script for IX was made during TLJ's production time. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WEU1b2t1zM And yes, it did include Force Ghost Luke trolling Kylo  For various sorts of reasons which will surely be fascinating to read about once it all comes out all of it was thrown in the dumpster in favor of the ever-evolving and endlessly rewritten amazingly unexpected and unpredictable corporate disaster that was Rise of Skywalker. Remember when Matt Smith was going to be in it? https://www.denofgeek.com/movies/star-wars-matt-smith-rise-of-skywalker-character/  And no, Disney did not let each director just do what they want. If you believe that then I've got a bridge to sell you.
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Dec 29, 2022 19:13
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I'm plenty aware of duel of the fates, I just don't consider it to be a satisfying followup to TLJ setup either. Having luke's ghost talk to kylo is necessary but not sufficient
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Dec 29, 2022 19:49
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No Mods No Masters posted:If there were a way to fit leia dying into the rey ambiguously joining kylo thing that probably would have been best of all, from a giving star wars 9 a fighting chance POV. But maybe that entails moving so many pieces around it's just a different movie at that point You could just start the next film with Leia's funeral. That would actually make for a pretty impactful beginning and would be way more tasteful than zombie Leia we got. I don't think it would be respectful (or really necessary) to change episode VIII due to Carrie Fisher's death, but they never should have forced her posthumous appearance in pisode IX.
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Dec 29, 2022 23:30
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Captain Jesus posted:You could just start the next film with Leia's funeral. That would actually make for a pretty impactful beginning and would be way more tasteful than zombie Leia we got. I don't think it would be respectful (or really necessary) to change episode VIII due to Carrie Fisher's death, but they never should have forced her posthumous appearance in pisode IX. Something that would be a lot more practical if the whole trilogy didnt happen over 3 days or so
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Dec 29, 2022 23:40
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I always operated under the assumption that every Star Wars movie takes place over several days if not weeks to account for travel time, how long it would feasibly take to prep something like the assault on both Death Stars, infiltrating Jabba's palace, etc And then for absolutely no reason Ep IX goes "the emperor is attacking the galaxy in 19 hours, Lando can you go rally the entire galaxy in the next 19 hours to stop him" and then he does
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Dec 30, 2022 02:46
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Wolfsheim posted:I always operated under the assumption that every Star Wars movie takes place over several days if not weeks to account for travel time, how long it would feasibly take to prep something like the assault on both Death Stars, infiltrating Jabba's palace, etc Also between TFA and TLJ the First Order mounts an overwhelming counter attack within a few hours of having their hugest weapon destroyed. In the same timespan Poe goes from "Woah, these guys have a working Star Destroyer!" to "Oh yeah that's a dreadnought, I know those! We are totally cheesed, they brought their dreadnought."
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Dec 30, 2022 03:05
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Wolfsheim posted:I always operated under the assumption that every Star Wars movie takes place over several days if not weeks to account for travel time, how long it would feasibly take to prep something like the assault on both Death Stars, infiltrating Jabba's palace, etc Halloween Jack posted:Anyway. When the history of the Empire is written, countless ages later in a galaxy far, far away, it will be about the struggle between Emperor Palpatine and General Calrissian. About how Palpatine underestimated Lando, and Lando showed up out of nowhere to destroy Palpatine's army, twice. Strangely, both times Palpatine was actually assassinated because of an obscure religious schism in the power-hungry cult where he was a dissident member.
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Dec 30, 2022 03:33
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I liked The Last Jedi in part because it hit enough of the Return of the Jedi beats (throne room confrontation, 'join me', the Emperor dies) that they absolutely couldn't remake Jedi for their third movie. They had to do something new. Then, well, uh.
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Dec 30, 2022 04:11
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Grendels Dad posted:Also between TFA and TLJ the First Order mounts an overwhelming counter attack within a few hours of having their hugest weapon destroyed. In the same timespan Poe goes from "Woah, these guys have a working Star Destroyer!" to "Oh yeah that's a dreadnought, I know those! We are totally cheesed, they brought their dreadnought." The timeline of the ST is hosed and one of my least favorite things (primarily JJs fault) but there is an indeterminate amount of time from when starkiller is destroyed to when the first order shows up. There is time for finn to be stabilized, the secret Jedi map to be finished and then for Rey to travel to achto and find Luke. When TLJ opens the resistance is in the middle of evacuating which they weren't doing at the end of tfa. Why JJ didnt end on Rey leaving to find luke or finding Luke and ending on a big revelation instead of him grimly looking stoic the sequel would have been in a better spot. edit: we've also discussed the Poe thing it's just where JJ uses the characters as audience surrogates and ignores what might be known or not. Poe has entire canon comic series where he has been fighting the first order for years prior to tfa and knows all about them
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Dec 30, 2022 04:27
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Jerkface posted:Poe has entire canon comic series where he has been fighting the first order for years prior to tfa and knows all about them didn't that come out after tfa
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Dec 30, 2022 04:39
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Captain Jesus posted:I don't think it would be respectful (or really necessary) to change episode VIII due to Carrie Fisher's death, but they never should have forced her posthumous appearance in episode IX. I can think of something respectful. Have her swap place with Adm. Holdo for the suicide run. Leia goes out like a boss, and then you have Laura Dern for episode IX. You also have the synchronicity of both of the Skywalker twins going out within hours or days of each other, plus as a bonus you've cleared the tables of legacy characters who aren't Lando or a droid. Have an after-credits scene in IX where it's Lando telling tall tales in a bar, getting to the end of IX, and suggesting someone buy him another drink if they want to hear what's going to happen next.
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Dec 30, 2022 04:41
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Horizon Burning posted:didn't that come out after tfa Yea it released shortly after TFA came out i assume there was some pre planning though, the resistance clearly knows the fo and was fighting them, it's in the text crawl!
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Dec 30, 2022 05:11
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mllaneza posted:I can think of something respectful. Have her swap place with Adm. Holdo for the suicide run. Leia goes out like a boss, and then you have Laura Dern for episode IX. You also have the synchronicity of both of the Skywalker twins going out within hours or days of each other, plus as a bonus you've cleared the tables of legacy characters who aren't Lando or a droid. Have an after-credits scene in IX where it's Lando telling tall tales in a bar, getting to the end of IX, and suggesting someone buy him another drink if they want to hear what's going to happen next. To film Leia doing things after Carrie Fisher died would require the same kind of ghoulish digital simulacrum they ended up doing anyway. It wouldn't have been less disrespectful, it would just have the disrespect taking place much closer to her death and therefore looking much ruder
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Dec 30, 2022 07:08
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They could have at least not had a plot point where the worst character in the entire franchise, Maz Kanata, steal a medal from her in repose corpse to give to Chewie.
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Dec 30, 2022 07:30
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2house2fly posted:To film Leia doing things after Carrie Fisher died would require the same kind of ghoulish digital simulacrum they ended up doing anyway. It wouldn't have been less disrespectful, it would just have the disrespect taking place much closer to her death and therefore looking much ruder You just need to edit the scene of Holdo getting on the shuttle, so Leia gets on board, and then a shot of her on the bridge which is easy enough to get from existing footage and composite in. I'd say that's far more respectful than the terrible dialogue they cobbled together from unused footage.
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Dec 30, 2022 08:34
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You've already got the character that 100% should have triggered the hyperspace ambush. His name is... ADMIRAL ACKBAR. Hux: "So, you're going to try and hold us off alone, eh, squiddie? Well, I'm afraid-" Ackbar: "No. It's a trap." >BOOM< It was right there.
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Dec 30, 2022 16:35
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Honestly, I think the Leia situation was something of an unsolvable problem. TLJ did pass the buck on it, but in the end there really wasn’t any option that would have a, felt respectful, b, made sense for the story, and c, was technically feasible.
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Dec 30, 2022 17:26
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I wonder why Leia was the one out of the big three they decided to keep around the longest - maybe because Ford wanted out and Luke needed to go to make room for the new generation? But then the sequels are weirdly deferential to her and by extension the idea of the Republic in a way they absolutely aren't to the Jedi or Han, which is pretty  if the point is to learn from the mistakes shown in the prequels.
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Dec 30, 2022 18:23
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I guess they didn’t want it to become the luke show, though I’m not really sure why considering mark was the only one of the big three willing and able to act- besides not wanting to pay him. Kennedy never much concealed that she’s a leia fan and I think that influence feels pretty obvious over the disney wars tenure at this point
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Dec 30, 2022 18:28
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Part of it might come from using Lucas' outlines as a starting point, which included stuff like Han being in trouble with the underworld (and possibly not in posession of the Falcon), and Luke being sequestered away from the galaxy after his temple was destroyed. Leia was supposed to be the one who ended up the big hero at the end, by uniting a New Republic against Maul's underworld faction. While Abrams is responsible for the creation of the First Order, the script for Episode 7 still carried some of Lucas' ideas, which meant Leia wouldn't have much to do until later. Then in 2014 a bunch of Lucasfilm execs got together to brainstorm some ideas for where 8 and 9 could go, and one that they were really intent on was having Leia be responsible for Kylo's redemption, which wouldn't happen until the last movie.
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Dec 30, 2022 18:30
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Leia doing the kamikaze would have been an utterly inappropriate way to send off that character. Star Wars traditionally has a fairly large cast of very minor military officials who are more consistent faces rather than movers of plot (Dodonna, Commander Cody, Panaka, Tarpals, even Ackbar, Wedge, and Piett if we're being honest with ourselves). They don't have character arcs or really even interact narratively with the main cast. The sequels also have a few of these kind of guys, but Holdo weirdly stands out as one of these actually being an important character to the story. I think the most "star wars" way to have done the ram scene would have been to have a whole bridge crew doing it without focus on a single character, perhaps akin to the ram attack in rogue one, or taking down the executor in jedi. In a sense its the "Rebel Alliance" as a composite character that achieves these victories. It would take significant reworking to adjust TLJ this way though. Ultimately I think the entire Poe vs Command conflict screws the story up, since Leia is ultimately in command but can't be overly antagonistic to him, another person is required, who then demands her own storyline.
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Dec 30, 2022 18:43
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Robot Style posted:Part of it might come from using Lucas' outlines as a starting point, which included stuff like Han being in trouble with the underworld (and possibly not in posession of the Falcon), and Luke being sequestered away from the galaxy after his temple was destroyed. Leia was supposed to be the one who ended up the big hero at the end, by uniting a New Republic against Maul's underworld faction. Well I guess Leia dying distracted Kylo and got him skewered. 
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Dec 30, 2022 19:06
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F.D. Signifier posted:And no, Disney did not let each director just do what they want. If you believe that then I've got a bridge to sell you. Yup, 100% I can understand not liking Johnson or Abrams but their respective filmographies are proof they can tell coherent stories. They definitely have to eat some of the blame (Kennedy & Disney didn't write or film or edit) but there's plenty to go around. I think everyone involved was a fan of star wars; a case of too many cooks trying to please everyone, most like.
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Dec 30, 2022 19:28
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BiggestBatman posted:Leia doing the kamikaze would have been an utterly inappropriate way to send off that character. “Utterly inappropriate” is good. HOW TO FIX THE LEIA PROBLEM: Leia is on the bridge of the Raddus with ACKBAR. He gazes at her longingly, with a bit of sadness. “See you in the next life, my love.” Leia smiles back as their hands meet, and they SLAM that boost lever.
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Dec 30, 2022 19:34
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Maybe it’s a question of better kayfabe, but rian has always maintained 8 was precisely the movie he wanted to make. People are just taking him on his word. JJ’s public remarks are much more in line with frustration at the compromises though
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Dec 30, 2022 19:37
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Neo Rasa posted:They could have at least not had a plot point where the worst character in the entire franchise, Maz Kanata, steal a medal from her in repose corpse to give to Chewie. That part ruled tho?? It's an awful movie but I enjoyed ep 9 the most for how it cranked the dial to 11 on everything
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Dec 30, 2022 20:07
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Angry Salami posted:Honestly, I think the Leia situation was something of an unsolvable problem. TLJ did pass the buck on it, but in the end there really wasn’t any option that would have a, felt respectful, b, made sense for the story, and c, was technically feasible. It was like that in TLJ, but there wasn't any reason to involve Leia in the next film. They didn't give her anything to do after digitally resurrecting her anyway. Episode IX could have started with the opening crawl saying she died and then have the characters dealing with that be part of the story.
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Dec 30, 2022 20:35
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Captain Jesus posted:It was like that in TLJ, but there wasn't any reason to involve Leia in the next film. They didn't give her anything to do after digitally resurrecting her anyway. Episode IX could have started with the opening crawl saying she died and then have the characters dealing with that be part of the story. “Somehow, Leia died.”
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Dec 30, 2022 20:53
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No Mods No Masters posted:Maybe it’s a question of better kayfabe, but rian has always maintained 8 was precisely the movie he wanted to make. People are just taking him on his word. JJ’s public remarks are much more in line with frustration at the compromises though Interestingly, the decision to abandon Lucas’s outlines and Arndt’s first script based on those seems to have happened a few months after JJ came on for TFA. It appears he asked for and got permission to do basically whatever he wanted with that movie and then he made what he wanted to make (an anodyne retread of A New Hope)
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Dec 30, 2022 23:22
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No Mods No Masters posted:Maybe it’s a question of better kayfabe, but rian has always maintained 8 was precisely the movie he wanted to make. People are just taking him on his word. JJ’s public remarks are much more in line with frustration at the compromises though TLJ's script was also turned in very early and the production was a smooth affair with no major reshoots or rewrites.
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Dec 31, 2022 00:37
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Doctor Spaceman posted:TLJ's script was also turned in very early and the production was a smooth affair with no major reshoots or rewrites. Excepting the whole poe and finn go to canto bight thing, ofc
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Dec 31, 2022 01:03
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Horizon Burning posted:Excepting the whole poe and finn go to canto bight thing, ofc That change happened during the writing process well before filming started. There was nothing in TLJ like Poe's survival in TFA or the major reworkings that Solo, Rogue One and RoS got during/after production.
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Dec 31, 2022 01:12
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porfiria posted:“Somehow, Leia died.” This would have been fine. Have her dead at the start of the movie or shortly into it, and make the grief some kind of motivating factor for some of the characters. I remember them promising that there wouldn't be a CGI Carrie but honestly what we got was just as bad if not worse. It felt like the gifs of confused John Travolta pasted into scenes.
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Dec 31, 2022 05:40
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porfiria posted:“Somehow, Leia died.” Instead Disney went with "THE DEAD SPEAK!"
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Dec 31, 2022 06:09
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Vintersorg posted:Yeah, shifted to the right.  whack
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Dec 31, 2022 07:19
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SOME OF THE DEAD SPEAK
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Dec 31, 2022 07:39
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Dec 31, 2022 07:46
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Zoran posted:Interestingly, the decision to abandon Lucas’s outlines and Arndt’s first script based on those seems to have happened a few months after JJ came on for TFA. It appears he asked for and got permission to do basically whatever he wanted with that movie and then he made what he wanted to make (an anodyne retread of A New Hope) Yeah, it's really interesting to look at the concept art book for Episode 7 and see a bunch of stuff that lines up with Lucas' outlines, and then JJ finishes up with Star Trek Into Darkness and suddenly all the art is just Rich Evans chanting "AT-ST! AT-ST!"
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Dec 31, 2022 08:36
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