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The thing I found surprising is I never realized how quickly cardiac arrest causes unconsciousness. I guess the Hollywood portrayal makes it seem much different.
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Jan 3, 2023 16:29
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Yeah, as much as I like to have the NFL this may be literally the one time I think they did everything they could in this situation. While I could see people making this oversight I wouldn’t be surprised if there were protocols in place to get those pads off as quickly and safely as possible, and by all accounts they responded rapidly to a dire situation. As for the game itself, the five-minutes thing is concerning but it seems like they quickly came to the right conclusion and suspended the game. I can totally see there being a bit of indecision just from the shock of the situation, and a ref telling the teams they had five minutes to warm up because that’s the rulebook said and it getting misinterpreted from there. Like everything else we’ll know more in a few days because if something stupid did happenI can’t imagine every single one of the hundreds of individuals down on the field remaining silent
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Jan 3, 2023 16:31
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It's hard to fault the refs for that 5 minute thing. It felt pretty obvious to me that they were saying "ok, we have to apply SOMETHING from the rulebook here to give the players an opportunity to gather themselves" and that was their only option while they sought guidance from the league. It was pretty clear from McDermott's face they weren't going to play and the rest was just working through the crisis management cycle as mentioned earlier while the league figured out what was going on. It was also very likely that the league office also was not very concerned with "what do we do now" until the ambulance was off the field. The primary concern for everyone was "is Hamlin still alive" and the rest was figured out after they knew he was.
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Jan 3, 2023 16:34
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Impossibly Perfect Sphere posted:The thing I found surprising is I never realized how quickly cardiac arrest causes unconsciousness. I guess the Hollywood portrayal makes it seem much different. I think it's because a lot of people conflate heart attacks and cardiac arrest.
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Jan 3, 2023 16:36
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I assumed the refs did not have the authority to stop the game and were just following whatever rules they had that were more suited for someone getting their knee turned inside out or other "expected" football injuries.
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Jan 3, 2023 16:38
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You are receiving this broadcast as a dream...We are transmitting from the year one nine... nine nine ...You are receiving this broadcast in order t
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MJeff posted:So wait, did the dude have covid six weeks ago or what? I've heard it mentioned twice but couldn't find anything saying it on google or twitter or anything, because, well, searching "Hamlin covid" gets you exactly what you'd think it would right now. He didn't practice due to illness 6 weeks ago. Maybe it was covid maybe it wasn't. Haven't heard of the NFL announcing a covid case in a long time. https://www.masslive.com/patriots/2022/11/7-buffalo-bills-miss-practice-as-illness-runs-through-locker-room-ahead-of-patriots-game.html
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Jan 3, 2023 16:39
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wilderthanmild posted:I think it's because a lot of people conflate heart attacks and cardiac arrest. It's this. A heart attack is a myocardial infarction. Cardiac arrest is your heart stopping. A myocardial infarction can cause cardiac arrest, but it doesn't always. Also, there are a lot of reasons that someone's heart can stop that have nothing to do with a myocardial infarction.
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Jan 3, 2023 16:39
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wilderthanmild posted:I think it's because a lot of people conflate heart attacks and cardiac arrest. It’s exactly this
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Jan 3, 2023 16:40
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also probably one of those situations where the trauma of seeing an event unfold like that kinda just puts you into autopilot mode, and you just sorta follow the checklist you're given. i can't imagine the refs sincerely wanted that game to continue.
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Jan 3, 2023 16:41
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The solution here is to give every player nanomachine hearts like the guy from Metal Gear Rising.
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Jan 3, 2023 16:41
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Pain of Mind posted:I assumed the refs did not have the authority to stop the game and were just following whatever rules they had that were more suited for someone getting their knee turned inside out or other "expected" football injuries. The refs do have the authority to stop the game in emergencies, but they can also defer to the commissioner's rep which they did. The refs, following extended suspension of play, can give teams up to ten minutes for warm ups. If suspension is longer than 30 minutes, warm up time can go to 15 minutes. The refs told the coaches "ok, we're giving you five minutes to warm up" and the coaches said "we're going to the locker room." The refs then most likely said "ok, we'll defer to the commissioner's rep" who then had to make the call. She was the person handing the coaches the phones before they finally called the game. The person on the other side of the phone was the commissioner or his designated rep in the NFL league office in NYC.
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Jan 3, 2023 16:42
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The covid discussion is just as speculative as the anti-vax people talking about the vaccine on twitter unless doctors who are treating him make some sort of connection.
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Jan 3, 2023 16:42
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just sim every nfl season on the new verison of Madden, and never play real football again.
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Jan 3, 2023 16:42
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Reddit, etc but for more medical discussion this thread from r/residency has a lot of physicians speculating, if that’s what you want to read more of. https://www.reddit.com/r/Residency/...utm_name=iossmf One interesting tidbit from deep in the thread - at least some teams have anesthesiologists on the sideline. Anesthesia+another physician is who would lead the team in a trauma bay at the ER. That also means your normal thinking about trying to parse things like “paramedics did CPR for 10 minutes” from random people is probably even more inaccurate than usual and the number of interventions possible in the field is vastly expanded from what paramedics and a medical director on the phone would do normally. Here’s hoping, a lot of physicians in that thread seem somewhat optimistic.
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Jan 3, 2023 16:42
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Woke Mind Virus posted:He didn't practice due to illness 6 weeks ago. Maybe it was covid maybe it wasn't. Haven't heard of the NFL announcing a covid case in a long time. Yeah ever since covid stopped being a special thing for the league it just gets reported as generic 'illness' so could be, could be not. Pain of Mind posted:The covid discussion is just as speculative as the anti-vax people talking about the vaccine on twitter unless doctors who are treating him make some sort of connection. Pretty sure it's not even on the same planet speculation-wise there chief
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Jan 3, 2023 16:42
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MJeff posted:The solution here is to give every player nanomachine hearts like the guy from Metal Gear Rising. Make them all get the defib implant things they give to people who have arrhythmias. Don't actually do this of course
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Jan 3, 2023 16:46
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BigBallChunkyTime posted:Yeah the NFL sucks rear end, but I can't find a single thing to criticize in how they've handled the situation I went to the NCAA Football rules to see what they have for their rules and it would produce a nearly identical scenario. The officials are empowered to suspend play and resume play when "conditions are satisfactory." If conditions do not allow the game to resume, and this is where things have a bit of wiggle room that could produce a long interval, the terms must be agreed to before calling the game. There's four options: resume at a later date, use the existing score as a final score, forfeit, or no contest. That you have to decide what you're doing before making the announcement, even if it is a foregone conclusion (suppose something obvious like a major fire in the stadium), is going to introduce a period of ambiguous status. Early in a late season game and you might see some disagreements in how to proceed even if both sides don't want to play. I've seen the five minute warm up deployed after serious injury delays in college, but that doesn't exist in the rules by letter of the law. It seems to be a traditional "rule at the discretion of the officials," since they're empowered to have injury timeouts of whatever length they deem necessary, but also are required to keep players on the sideline during injury timeouts. Given that the NCAA rules seem unprepared for something like this too, it isn't a surprise that the NFL may have had trouble figuring out how to manage it.
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Jan 3, 2023 16:47
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I'm disappointed we don't have any updates yet, which is probably bad.
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Jan 3, 2023 16:49
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Apples McGrind posted:also probably one of those situations where the trauma of seeing an event unfold like that kinda just puts you into autopilot mode, and you just sorta follow the checklist you're given. i can't imagine the refs sincerely wanted that game to continue. This is also 100% true and why a huge portion of medicine is broken into algorithms--especially in pediatric care. So much so that a pediatric EM doc in Miami built an entire system around standardizing medication doses for kids based on ideal body weight estimates by rote memorization on your hand (1-3-5-7-9 for ages 10-15-20-25-30kg IBW). In times past, we used length based tape or sat there converting pounds to kgs and trying to remember 100000000 weight-based pediatric doses mid-cardiac arrest while trying to IO a tiny little leg and do compressions on a baby. It's a recipe for disaster (and often was).
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Jan 3, 2023 16:51
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The five minute thing isn’t worth faulting anyone for with the details we have. The league office is saying they did not instruct that, and for all we know it could have been “what the hell do we do, the only thing close to this in the rule book is allow for warming up to resume” and the coaches going “nah”. We’re like 2 or 3 levels deep in telephone here.
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Jan 3, 2023 16:53
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Yeah the game was ultimately suspended with little/no incident. The minutia of the path there doesn't feel particularly pertinent to anything.
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Jan 3, 2023 16:58
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They are going to play the game. I don't think they will just cancel it.
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Jan 3, 2023 16:59
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Impossibly Perfect Sphere posted:The biggest crime last night was ESPN forcing us to listen to Schefter. Spaced God posted:I just had the horrifying thought of how urban meyer would handle this
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Jan 3, 2023 17:02
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Komet posted:I'm disappointed we don't have any updates yet, which is probably bad. It’s pretty standard with this kind of thing, plus it’s really up to his family at his point how/what gets discussed
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Jan 3, 2023 17:04
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For my part, I just cannot stop F5ing that toy drive. It's at 3.85m now with no sign of slowing down. I hope he wakes up just fine like that hockey player did, and finds out that his little toy drive fund now has all the resources it could ever need  And it is still a going concern; Hamlin, in classic fashion, just hasn't updated the description since 2020.  Here's a copy of the video from his instagram a few weeks back, highlighting how the third annual iteration of the drive went: https://twitter.com/SportsContent23/status/1610304939737202688 I hope he pulls through and #4 is the event it ought to be.
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Jan 3, 2023 17:24
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The Dave posted:The five minute thing isn’t worth faulting anyone for with the details we have. The league office is saying they did not instruct that, and for all we know it could have been “what the hell do we do, the only thing close to this in the rule book is allow for warming up to resume” and the coaches going “nah”. We’re like 2 or 3 levels deep in telephone here. A player almost dying on the field, the league office and officials just have way higher priority things than deciding if they are suspending the game or not. That decision can wait, so likely some random person somewhere in the middle of command was like, "We might be restarting the game, better make sure the teams are ready."
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Jan 3, 2023 17:27
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SLICK GOKU BABY posted:A player almost dying on the field, the league office and officials just have way higher priority things than deciding if they are suspending the game or not. That decision can wait, so likely some random person somewhere in the middle of command was like, "We might be restarting the game, better make sure the teams are ready." We have literally nothing but speculation on the context of the 5-minute thing, nor do I think we even have a solid confirmation that it ever happened. All sorts of nonsense information gets reported during crisis situations.
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Jan 3, 2023 17:31
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For all we know, Buck pulled it straight out of his butt.
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Jan 3, 2023 17:32
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The fact that Schefter ISN'T reporting on the 5 minute thing probably means that it did happen Unless he did. I try not to pay too much attention to him unless I want to know what the owners are thinking In other words, this was a useless comment. What a way to make my first NFL post.
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Jan 3, 2023 17:35
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Jarmak posted:We have literally nothing but speculation on the context of the 5-minute thing, nor do I think we even have a solid confirmation that it ever happened. All sorts of nonsense information gets reported during crisis situations. It happened and is in the rulebook as the proper procedure for the refs. They were allowed to give the teams up to ten minutes to warmup to resume play and figured five would be enough after the stoppage. The coaches told the refs they weren't playing, and the refs then deferred to the commissioner's rep at the game per protocol.
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Jan 3, 2023 17:37
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did the refs even know about the aed and cpr? i really have no idea what they know in situations like that. i only remember both teams huddling and walling off the situation. i kind of assumed the refs were biding their times on the sidelines? would they have even had a chance to talk to ny while on the field?
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Jan 3, 2023 17:38
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If the refs were thinking straight, the thought process could have been something like "I don't really want to play, but we should talk to the coaches/league about it first. But if we do play, the players can't come in cold, so let's get that taken care of while we figure things out because that's the only thing I can control right now." As for what can the league do if the Bills are like "Our guys can't play. If you send us out there, we're going to kneel every play because someone is actually going to get hurt bad if we try and play in the headspace we're in"? Also, hopefully Tee's ok after this and he can actually resume his career. Closest I can think of is another hockey example in Espen Knutsen. Dude took a normal shot that deflected into the stands, but it sounds up hitting a kid in the head and she died. Total fluke and no one, including her family thought he did anything wrong, but Espen went from all-star to out of the league in a year. Edit: fixed funny typo pseudodragon fucked around with this message at 18:21 on Jan 3, 2023 |
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Jan 3, 2023 17:42
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Mr. Nice! posted:It happened and is in the rulebook as the proper procedure for the refs. They were allowed to give the teams up to ten minutes to warmup to resume play and figured five would be enough after the stoppage. The coaches told the refs they weren't playing, and the refs then deferred to the commissioner's rep at the game per protocol. Do you have a source confirming this exact chain of events or are you just filling in context based on what makes sense to you?
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Jan 3, 2023 17:42
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This is way back in 1989 but an incredible NHL story - https://www.coffeeordie.com/james-pizzutelli Near identical injury happened again in 2008. Vastly different circumstances then what we have here but speaks to just how quick Trainers can save a life. hoping against hope that Hamlin pulls through.
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Jan 3, 2023 17:43
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abelwingnut posted:did the refs even know about the aed and cpr? i really have no idea what they know in situations like that. i only remember both teams huddling and walling off the situation. i kind of assumed the refs were biding their times on the sidelines? The refs have their procedure for emergencies and stoppages and followed them. Although they have the authority to suspend indefinitely, they are encouraged as standard policy that games should be played to their completion. The emergency was done, they figured five minutes was appropriate (out of the the ten they had to give) for warmups, and notified the coaches of their intention to resume. The coaches said they were going to the locker room instead, an the refs deferred to the commissioner's rep per policy. The commissioner's rep and the NYC office took a little over an hour to sort poo poo out to the point they were ready to discuss with the coaches.
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Jan 3, 2023 17:43
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I can totally see it being a thing of the refs being asked "hey what do we do here" and the refs saying that normal protocol is if a player is carted off the field there's a 5 minute warmup. But also it not being what they told the teams to do, because poo poo like this doesn't happen. I'm willing to give them benefit of the doubt and saying that they were just giving a protocol response, not what they actually thought they should do.
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Jan 3, 2023 17:44
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Jarmak posted:Do you have a source confirming this exact chain of events or are you just filling in context based on what makes sense to you? Here is the operations manual: https://fliphtml5.com/uryp/sdbq Here is the ref's authority during emergency:  Here is the section discussing the time allowed for warmups following suspension:  I'm basing my statements on what I saw on the broadcast last night, what was said on the broadcast last night, and what the standard policy book says people are supposed to do in those situations. Go to page A75 for the commissioner's stuff on cancellation, suspension, termination, etc.
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Jan 3, 2023 17:47
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pseudodragon posted:Also, hopefully Tee's ok after this and he can actually resume his career. Closest I can think of is another hockey example in Espen Knutsen. Dude took a normal poo poo that deflected into the stands, but it sounds up hitting a kid in the head and she died. Total fluke and no one, including her family thought he did anything wrong, but Espen went from all-star to out of the league in a year. i don't mean to undercut your point here because it's very real but the typo is extremely funny
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Jan 3, 2023 17:48
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pseudodragon posted:If the refs were thinking straight, the thought process could have been something like "I don't really want to play, but we should talk to the coaches/league about it first. But if we do play, the players can't come in cold, so let's get that taken care of while we figure things out because that's the only thing I can control right now." I'm going to hell for laughing at your typo, but I agree with your overall sentiment. You wrote "poo poo" instead of "shot"
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Jan 3, 2023 17:48
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I think it was just a difficult and chaotic situation, and was ultimately handled about as well as you could expect on the other hand the NFL has worked tirelessly for decades to make it very difficult to give them the benefit of the doubt, so maybe going forward they could consider not loving up everywhere else all the time
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Jan 3, 2023 17:50
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