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Orange Devil posted:Any opinions on either Nemesis? i've played it 4p twice, loved it both times and so did everyone else. there were some really fun stories created and that, i think, is the main goal of it. I can see how the cost of that would be the occasional game where someone is taken out extremely early on though will probably sell Nemesis Lockdown however. it feels very excessive having both
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Jan 4, 2023 13:50
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It's great cause you can have an early heel turn, and then when you're actively trying to help no-one trusts you. Top tier experience generator
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Jan 4, 2023 13:59
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GrandpaPants posted:I dunno if there's a general LCG thread, but the Arkham LCG thread is here and still here: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3989685 https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3608727 But nobody has posted since last year 
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Jan 4, 2023 14:33
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Mr. Squishy posted:Ark Nova is is one of those engine builders where players sift through a huge deck of engine pieces to try and cobble together something that works. I honestly found it overlong and quite lonely. There's very little player interaction at all, and that's intentional. A lot of players of heavier boardgames love to work out neat combos, and hate to have to guess what other players are going to do. Me, I just hate squinting at a bunch of cards to try and read what they do. Plus it's got animals as a theme, which is neat. I got Ark Nova a couple of weeks ago and I quite like it, though I've only played it four or five times (mostly with two players). At least so far it doesn't really seem like an engine builder; on the animal side all of the mechanics are parasitic (e.g. to get value from predators you need to play more predators, same with herbivores etc). The sponsor cards offer slightly more possibilities, but most of them are still just giving you some additional benefit for playing or having a particular kind of animal (type, country of origin, habitat preferences, etc).
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Jan 4, 2023 16:03
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Ark Nova is good, but overrated, i feel. It's got the issue of pulling cards 'one giant deck of cards', where maybe nothing you need will ever show up since you go through not even half the deck sometimes. It does feel like it has too much going on, but at the same time it all feels like it hangs together well enough and i am not sure what i would take out, so there's that. It also take up way too much space. But I liked that 'building the zoo' part with the cages, upgrading your options/choices with partnerships, and I do not regret playing it, even though it does feel too long with certain players. It does play better with 2 players, in my opinion. Also, make sure everyone understands the ending condition and scoring before you get too close to it. First time I played it was quite the gulf in everyone's skill/experience with the game, and the winner had like 16 points, second was around 12 points, then me and the other new guy had something like -20 and -25 points because the ending was not very well explained. It left a huge sour taste in my mouth where i felt like i had just wasted several hours of my life, and I almost did not try the game ever again because of it. But after that, the scores were always much closer. This may just be a 'me' problem, though.
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Jan 4, 2023 16:21
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It's also one of a handful of games I've blinged out, as I felt it was worth it, so take if that as you will. Do have one complaint though Here's my game bag for tomorrow:   
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Jan 4, 2023 16:30
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Why are designers allergic to tiered decks? So many games could be enhanced with just simple ages/eras/tiers to the cards. Just look at how Valley of the Kings kicks the crap out of so many other rivals by handling the market row in a novel way on top of layering the cards so that you don't see a card no one can afford or has terrible early synergy clogging everything up. I think Dune Imperium would benefit greatly from this as well but it's barely a deck builder anyway. Also who are all these people who take the time to log the games they play? I'm usually too exhausted to remember to do anything except clean up and put the lid on properly so that it lines up with the back of the box.
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Jan 4, 2023 16:35
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FulsomFrank posted:Why are designers allergic to tiered decks? So many games could be enhanced with just simple ages/eras/tiers to the cards. Just look at how Valley of the Kings kicks the crap out of so many other rivals by handling the market row in a novel way on top of layering the cards so that you don't see a card no one can afford or has terrible early synergy clogging everything up. So many times while playing the Arkham LCG I've thought about this as well. Drawing one of the most powerful monsters in the deck two turns in before you've even stepped out of the first room is such a downer. There are scenarios in which there's a 'normal' part beforehand, before everything goes to poo poo, and then when things pop off, you shuffle extra enemies and encounters into the deck, and those feel so much more fun than the rest, knowing that you aren't going to be facing a bunch of difficult stuff right out of the gate. Also, I log my games because ....not sure why, I think there's just something about it I quite like. I start up the app, click on the game I'm playing, and then just let it run. Then I fill out details like players or expansions or whatever while someone else is doing their turn.
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Jan 4, 2023 16:43
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FulsomFrank posted:Also who are all these people who take the time to log the games they play? I'm usually too exhausted to remember to do anything except clean up and put the lid on properly so that it lines up with the back of the box. sucks2beold I have an app, that starts a log and play time with the touch of a greasy cheeto thumb 
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Jan 4, 2023 16:45
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Also, if you aren't quantifying how much fun you're having, what are you even doing with your board game life it's what rosenberg would want
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Jan 4, 2023 16:45
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Played Obscurio and Labyrinth. Obscurio was much, much better than Mysterium Park (yet to play normal Mysterium). Goal was clear, game moved naturally, plenty of intrigue and interest. The traps in particular add a fantastic dimension that was lacking in Mysterium Park. Unfortunately we could only get in a couple game and both our Grimoires were terrible. Not anyone's fault, we were all (5p) learning it together for the first time. Still the Grimoire made so bad a blunder in the 2nd game its best not to count that game at all. Definitely want to get a solid game of it down before making a final call, but it's looking like I'll land on liking it overall. Labyrinth is fine. It's simple, it's engaging, it's well paced. It's not very exciting, pretty luck heavy, and it's extremely shallow. Fun to play quickly before the store closes, won't table it otherwise. Perry Mason Jar fucked around with this message at 17:22 on Jan 4, 2023 |
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Jan 4, 2023 17:08
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Is there a game like Unmatched but with a deckbuilding component?
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Jan 4, 2023 17:46
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CitizenKeen posted:Is there a game like Unmatched but with a deckbuilding component? Twisted Fables
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Jan 4, 2023 18:00
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CitizenKeen posted:Is there a game like Unmatched but with a deckbuilding component? Skytear might be what you're looking for. It's MOBA inspired so there is more rules grit, but like Unmatched is all about smart card play and strategic positioning. Best with two, and has each player controlling 3 unique characters that you create a deck for.
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Jan 4, 2023 18:01
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CitizenKeen posted:Is there a game like Unmatched but with a deckbuilding component? Warhammer Underworlds! My favorite game. Check the OP here: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=4019549
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Jan 4, 2023 18:14
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Muir posted:Warhammer Underworlds! My favorite game. Check the OP here: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=4019549 That game was so good, but we got burnt out on it. I think I remember the early balance being not so great? I need to check on the latest sets.
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Jan 4, 2023 18:20
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Muir posted:Warhammer Underworlds! My favorite game. Check the OP here: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=4019549 I totally missed this was a series. I saw Shadespire on Watch It Played and their gameplay vids forever ago.
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Jan 4, 2023 18:24
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LifeLynx posted:That game was so good, but we got burnt out on it. I think I remember the early balance being not so great? I need to check on the latest sets. The balance is pretty decent now, and there's some great formats that allow for no deckbuilding (Rivals), moderate deckbuilding (Nemesis), or total deckbuilding (Relic / Championship). The newest season started recently, Gnarlwood, and it's fun.
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Jan 4, 2023 18:32
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I think Ark Nova's main appeal is the theme. It's one of those games that people who wouldn't normally play a game of that type/weight will give it a go because they like zoos and animals.
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Jan 4, 2023 21:25
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I would classify Ark Nova as the perfect "lazy Sunday afternoon" game. If you get together with other people who are into the theme (and I am very much into the theme) it's a super chill way to spend the day. There's a lot of bonuses triggered by other bonuses, so you get that constant dopamine hit from number going up. Comfort food in board game form. I also have a friend that I got into board games recently, but she doesn't like games with any adversarial interaction, so the 'multiplayer solitaire' aspect is a plus for me.
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Jan 4, 2023 23:04
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It’s the same reason why I love Caverna, Wingspan or, to go to the real extreme, 1853, which is the ultimate gentlemen’s agreement game.
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Jan 4, 2023 23:09
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FulsomFrank posted:Why are designers allergic to tiered decks? So many games could be enhanced with just simple ages/eras/tiers to the cards. Just look at how Valley of the Kings kicks the crap out of so many other rivals by handling the market row in a novel way on top of layering the cards so that you don't see a card no one can afford or has terrible early synergy clogging everything up. Arnak does a neat, simple thing where the market shifts over time from normal cards (that need to go through the usual cleanup and draw cycle before use) to ones that have on-gain abilities but which cost to be reused.
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Jan 5, 2023 02:38
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Wrong thread
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Jan 5, 2023 02:54
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Doctor Spaceman posted:Terraforming Mars too. Yeah TM is the one I always think of but wasn't sure if one of the expansions fixed that or not, I don't have any of them and in my mind there are a dozen when in actuality there are probably maybe two I don't know. Christ, even Splendor figured out tiered decks.
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Jan 5, 2023 04:49
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FulsomFrank posted:Why are designers allergic to tiered decks? So many games could be enhanced with just simple ages/eras/tiers to the cards. It adds quite a lot to the setup/teardown burden, especially if the cards need to have identical backs. And that affects every game, while just speeding up card churn so you're more likely to see cards appropriate for your level will sort of work, most of the time. Multi-use cards that offer more at a higher player level would be ideal, I suppose.
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Jan 5, 2023 07:57
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Oh dear me posted:It adds quite a lot to the setup/teardown burden, especially if the cards need to have identical backs. And that affects every game, while just speeding up card churn so you're more likely to see cards appropriate for your level will sort of work, most of the time. Multi-use cards that offer more at a higher player level would be ideal, I suppose. I think every game with tiered decks would be improved by having the backs different ala Concordia lol.
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Jan 5, 2023 08:15
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FulsomFrank posted:Yeah TM is the one I always think of but wasn't sure if one of the expansions fixed that or not, I don't have any of them and in my mind there are a dozen when in actuality there are probably maybe two I don't know. Christ, even Splendor figured out tiered decks. Nah, TM's expansions generally approach the issue by giving you more stuff which isn't reliant on cards and/or gives you more tools to be able to use the cards you're given.
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Jan 5, 2023 09:48
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TM would be a worse game with tiered decks imo. The design is such that almost all cards are not great on their own, but good if you get them at the right time in the game and/or in the right combination with order cards. There's a couple cards that are design misses because they are always bad and some because they are always great but it's impressive how many cards are in the sweet spot of being situationally good. The whole skill then is figuring out what situation you are in, and speculating on cards most likely to turn out good based on your future draws, while denying cards that are good for whatever opponent(s) is most threatening.
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Jan 5, 2023 11:33
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Orange Devil posted:TM would be a worse game with tiered decks imo. I hear what you're saying and maybe I just don't play the game enough (~7 plays) but each time we played it felt like I was chewing through the chaff constantly to get to the wheat and it was tedious and annoying. Again, more than willing to say I suck at it, just seems like a tighter design would be making more choices that matter at particular beats in the game, mechanically and thematically. Just remembered Twilight Struggle does this too.
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Jan 5, 2023 16:45
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Through the ages is the example I always point to, of course.
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Jan 5, 2023 17:10
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You're churning through tons of projects in TfM looking for ones that will maybe work for you. In a way that's the core of the whole game: making the best out of the totally random draw. Luck mitigation is a skill but in the end it's still luck.
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Jan 5, 2023 17:47
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FulsomFrank posted:I hear what you're saying and maybe I just don't play the game enough (~7 plays) but each time we played it felt like I was chewing through the chaff constantly to get to the wheat and it was tedious and annoying. Again, more than willing to say I suck at it, just seems like a tighter design would be making more choices that matter at particular beats in the game, mechanically and thematically. Just remembered Twilight Struggle does this too. Are you drafting? It's basically required, otherwise you don't see enough cards to make the game compelling. The game sucks without drafting and the fact that it's not the default is a problem IMO (though it does significantly increase play length which might be why they don't) TfM has its issues but I still really enjoy it and I don't think that it needs a tiered deck, it just needs some of the chaff removed so that every card at least has the potential to be interesting if you get it under the right circumstances. Nobody is ever excited by Dust Seals.
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Jan 5, 2023 18:04
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RabidWeasel posted:Are you drafting? It's basically required, otherwise you don't see enough cards to make the game compelling. The game sucks without drafting and the fact that it's not the default is a problem IMO (though it does significantly increase play length which might be why they don't) We've drafted and done the draw n keep. My main issue is that unless everyone knows what they're doing, drafting in TfM can take a game that feels too long and turn it into a game that feels and is too long. We did a 4P drafting game once that lasted 4 hours. Not blaming the game entirely here but it haunts me to this day. Also a by-product of not you know... Terraforming Mars in lieu of trying to get a sick engine going.
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Jan 5, 2023 18:58
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I really dislike it when cards are from different "decks" (eg Age I, Age II, etc) but they have all the same backs and are differentiated only by some minor thing on the fronts. It makes sorting and handling a pain in the rear end. But what if you need the backs to -- for example -- not telegraph when the current age is ending? You can still have different backs, just burn & turn when it's time to reveal like in poker, problem solved. 
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Jan 5, 2023 19:17
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You can have different card backs, just have the deck played face up. Then the card on top of the deck could either be in play as part of the offer or be a small glimpse into the future to plan ahead. Some games already do this but far more should imo.
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Jan 5, 2023 19:31
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Ojetor posted:You can have different card backs, just have the deck played face up. Then the card on top of the deck could either be in play as part of the offer or be a small glimpse into the future to plan ahead. Some games already do this but far more should imo. Oathsworn both has you play with the top card face up, and the back of the card has the monster phase very clearly printed on it. The downside is people across the table want to read the card, so you're going to end up picking up the top card all the time, and you'll know what phase the next card is. Not a big deal, though. I think in most games I've played with tiered decks, the number of cards in each phase is known, so having unique card backs means you don't have to count cards drawn from that deck to know if the phase is nearly ending.
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Jan 5, 2023 19:46
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FulsomFrank posted:I hear what you're saying and maybe I just don't play the game enough (~7 plays) but each time we played it felt like I was chewing through the chaff constantly to get to the wheat and it was tedious and annoying. Again, more than willing to say I suck at it, just seems like a tighter design would be making more choices that matter at particular beats in the game, mechanically and thematically. Just remembered Twilight Struggle does this too. In TM you are absolutely chewing through the chaff to get to the wheat but: 1) different cards are wheat every playthrough based on your corp, the gamestate and the timing of you seeing the cards (again, the design misses of the always good and always bad cards notwithstanding) 2) different cards are wheat and chaff for different players based on their corps, gamestate and timing so you have to evaluate every card for value for yourself but also for value for the player(s) you are passing them to Also yeah if you're not drafting it's all random and a very bad game. Gotta draft to play TM. My group fell in love with the game and so we're playing it once or twice per week for the last couple months, usually 4 player, sometimes 3 player. Games take about 3 hours to get through, sometimes a little quicker. And that's with one player taking easily twice as long as everyone else. One of the things we love about it is that the endstate of the game looks very, very different each and every game. Game definitely takes longer when you are inexperienced because you spend more time reading and thinking about the cards and also new players get very focused on engine building rather than scoring points to get ahead and then when ahead ending the game so they win. When we started even 4 player games went to generation 11, 12 or even 13. Nowadays a 4 player game ends on generation 9 latest, and we've done as early as 6, where 8 seems to be the average. 3 player games take about a generation longer. Orange Devil fucked around with this message at 20:30 on Jan 5, 2023 |
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Jan 5, 2023 20:25
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My tip for getting the most out of TM is to not play it and instead play one of the many games that do what it is trying to do but actually respect the players' time and table space like It's A Wonderful World or Race For the Galaxy .
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Jan 5, 2023 20:31
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Speaking of Race for the Galaxy, that has one deck that's not tiered, but in that game, it's not that much of an issue. I'm too busy to think about it, but what makes a uniform big deck work in RftG?
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Jan 5, 2023 20:45
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In RftG if you aren't getting the cards you want, you have ways to keep looking with a repeatable action, which you can improve as well. This isn't possible in TfM, which has a fixed selection of cards (regardless of drafts or no draft).
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Jan 5, 2023 20:48
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