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Furnaceface posted:I always thought you guys were joking when you said the entire US political apparatus is held together by faith and duct tape. Being one of the earlier modern democracies, we didn't have as many examples to look to when it came to closing stupid little cracks in our foundation, so a pretty astounding amount of our government relies on "civic tradition" to function.
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Jan 6, 2023 02:38
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I AM GRANDO posted:This is a stupid question, but is there any mechanism to ensure that a speaker actually honors the concessions granted while they're running to be speaker? That’s why one of the demands is writing into the rules that a single person can toss the house back into this stage.
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Jan 6, 2023 02:39
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Skippy McPants posted:Being one of the earlier modern democracies, we didn't have as many examples to look to when it came to closing stupid little cracks in our foundation, so a pretty astounding amount of our government relies on "civic tradition" to function. And the rock-hard fetish both sides of the government have for that foundation ensures that no significant change will ever happen! 
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Jan 6, 2023 02:40
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Skippy McPants posted:Being one of the earlier modern democracies, we didn't have as many examples to look to when it came to closing stupid little cracks in our foundation, so a pretty astounding amount of our government relies on "civic tradition" to function. The US could have just created a system directly mirroring the contemporary UK parliament without a Crown, or done a better job stealing the structure of the Haudenosaunee.
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Jan 6, 2023 02:40
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Furnaceface posted:I always thought you guys were joking when you said the entire US political apparatus is held together by faith and duct tape. The constitution was written after its predecessor The Articles of Confederation failed spectacularly in less than a decade. They were both written by the same people and many of those people figured they’d be back a decade later to take a third shot at this.
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Jan 6, 2023 02:41
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Absurd Alhazred posted:The US could have just created a system directly mirroring the contemporary UK parliament without a Crown, or done a better job stealing the structure of the Haudenosaunee. The UK has no written constitution it's basically all civic tradition and convention that's really not that uncommon, a lot of states have conventions that, while not written, would cause a severe crisis if violated
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Jan 6, 2023 02:43
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A GIANT PARSNIP posted:The constitution was written after its predecessor The Articles of Confederation failed spectacularly in less than a decade. They were both written by the same people and many of those people figured they’d be back a decade later to take a third shot at this. Jefferson did say we should have a revolution every 20 years, at which point presumably we'd revise the Constitution. But no, we had to enshrine it like the goddamn Ten Commandments brought down from on high and here we are.
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Jan 6, 2023 02:45
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Absurd Alhazred posted:I think your question wasn't properly phrased: the executive in the US is independent of the legislature. It's not a matter of a "government" not forming, it's a matter of one of the legislative houses not being able to function properly. The "government" (what people here usually call "the administration") is carrying on. If the Senate, rather than the House, were dysfunctional then there would be issues if any new secretary or other position holder that needs Senate approval had to be filled, and we've seen what happens when the Senate is just contrary throughout most of the Obama administration, so it would in some ways be similar. But with the House not existing you're unable to pass Supply right?
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Jan 6, 2023 02:47
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Feels Villeneuve posted:The UK has no written constitution it's basically all civic tradition and convention So the US could have codified that instead of whatever the gently caress this nonsense we have is. "Let's create a system that cannot by design allow no confidence votes other than by a convoluted process requiring two houses and a supermajority" wasn't mandated by deciding a written constitution was necessary. The Lone Badger posted:But with the House not existing you're unable to pass Supply right? That's exactly what we don't have in the US. There's no mechanism for early elections. You just... don't have new taxes or authorized ways to spend. It's not been tested how the executive is supposed to deal with that, which is why people are worried about a default or talk about the $1T coin. Edit: We've had government shutdowns, which were resolved after a while, but if I'm not mistaken we've never gotten to the point where debts just weren't paid. Although I could be misremembering. Either way, even if that happens, there is no mechanism for an early general election. Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 02:51 on Jan 6, 2023 |
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Jan 6, 2023 02:48
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The Lone Badger posted:But with the House not existing you're unable to pass Supply right? failure of a budget to pass leads to a shutdown of everything except essential functions, not an election
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Jan 6, 2023 02:48
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Absurd Alhazred posted:So the US could have codified that instead of whatever the gently caress this nonsense we have is. "Let's create a system that cannot by design allow no confidence votes other than by a convoluted process requiring two houses and a supermajority" wasn't mandated by deciding a written constitution was necessary. generally speaking the removal of an executive, rather than the removal of the leader of the legislature requires a higher vote than a majority in countries with an elected executive, if you're talking about impeachment
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Jan 6, 2023 02:53
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Feels Villeneuve posted:generally speaking the removal of an executive, rather than the removal of the leader of the legislature requires a higher vote than a majority in countries with an elected executive There didn't need to be a directly elected executive. That, also, was not mandated by deciding to write a constitution out.
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Jan 6, 2023 02:54
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This chart from Wikipedia is my favorite thing.
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Jan 6, 2023 02:56
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McCarthy actively LOSING votes as time goes on ahahahaha this is it everybody, the American government ends here, not with a bang but a motion to adjourn. It was a fun experiment
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Jan 6, 2023 03:00
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Youremother posted:McCarthy actively LOSING votes as time goes on ahahahaha this is it everybody, the American government ends here, not with a bang but a motion to adjourn. It was a fun experiment The government is not going to suddenly end.
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Jan 6, 2023 03:01
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The year is 3028. Supplicants walk into the hallowed hall and take their places. In turn, each member shouts "Jeffries!" or "McCarthy!" A selected few are permitted to shout "Trimp!" When the ritual is complete, after many long hours, they adjourn. No understanding of why this ritual is performed remains.
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Jan 6, 2023 03:04
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Absurd Alhazred posted:There didn't need to be a directly elected executive. That, also, was not mandated by deciding to write a constitution out. even in countries with constitutions its common for very "low level" functions about how the legislature operates to be based on convention or tradition. Like you're talking about the UK when that's almost entirely based on convention, or like how every Commonwealth country has powers given to the Executive which by strict convention are never actually used without the legislature's approval because doing so would cause an absolute poo poo show (which iirc has actually happened in Australia) Like I'm not saying this is good, just that this kind of reliance on precedent and convention is not unique to the US.
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Jan 6, 2023 03:04
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Youremother posted:The year is 3028. Supplicants walk into the hallowed hall and take their places. In turn, each member shouts "Jeffries!" or "McCarthy!" A selected few are permitted to shout "Trimp!" When the ritual is complete, after many long hours, they adjourn. No understanding of why this ritual is performed remains. Weirdest Comstar ritual I’ve heard of yet.
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Jan 6, 2023 03:05
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Quote/edit
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Jan 6, 2023 03:05
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Leaked draft of McCarthy’s concessions. https://twitter.com/TheRichFromCali...s1_c10&ref_url=
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Jan 6, 2023 03:08
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It’s starting to sound like the uk’s parliament in there.
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Jan 6, 2023 03:11
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Jesus Christ that last one 
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Jan 6, 2023 03:12
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Feels Villeneuve posted:even in countries with constitutions its common for very "low level" functions about how the legislature operates to be based on convention or tradition. Don't know where you got that I'm arguing that other systems weren't built on convention. This was my OP: Absurd Alhazred posted:The US could have just created a system directly mirroring the contemporary UK parliament without a Crown, or done a better job stealing the structure of the Haudenosaunee.
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Jan 6, 2023 03:17
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Furnaceface posted:I always thought you guys were joking when you said the entire US political apparatus is held together by faith and duct tape. we cut out about the monstrous tumor of slavery but kept in basically all the stupid. The system literally cant handle not having a majority. Its paralyzed until someone blinks or 2 years when they all loose. Imagine what a genuine 3rd party would do to this monster if you had more regional factionalism (like east coast, west coast and midlands) or some other three way split. a binary of national level coalitions is the only stable pattern.
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Jan 6, 2023 03:24
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Interesting history I just found quote:In two instances the House agreed to choose and subsequently did
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Jan 6, 2023 03:31
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I'm morbidly curious to know how Fox/OANN/Truth Social/etc. are somehow claiming this is the Democrats' fault. Not curious to go look, but still.
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Jan 6, 2023 03:36
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Shooting Blanks posted:I'm morbidly curious to know how Fox/OANN/Truth Social/etc. are somehow claiming this is the Democrats' fault. Not curious to go look, but still. If they're anything like the rightwingers Twitter insists on flooding my trending topics over there with, they're focusing on yelling at Biden.
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Jan 6, 2023 03:40
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Earlier Fox was putting it on the Dems for refusing to work with the GOP, instead of letting themselves shoot them selves in the foot over and over
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Jan 6, 2023 03:42
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Absurd Alhazred posted:The US could have just created a system directly mirroring the contemporary UK parliament without a Crown, or done a better job stealing the structure of the Haudenosaunee. That's... what it is, though. The House of Commons is the House of Representatives, the House of Lords is the Senate, and the King is the President. It's just that in the last 240 years, the power of the Lords and King greatly declined into symbolic roles, while the Senate maintained its power and the President grew much stronger. e: also the US retrained a central executive because the experience with having no executive (or much central government at all) under the Articles of Confederation simply wasn't workable given the political conditions of the time.
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Jan 6, 2023 03:47
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Absurd Alhazred posted:If they're anything like the rightwingers Twitter insists on flooding my trending topics over there with, they're focusing on yelling at Biden. Yeah, I will say this about the current state of the right-wing: they're increasingly realizing, if even by accident, they have no good excuse for the stupid poo poo they're doing, so it's always "yeah well BIDEN DID THIS, WHAT ABOUT OUR BORDERS, HUNTER'S LAPTOP." It's the same thing in Canada, where they just shriek about some stupid poo poo they imagine Trudeau did. And even in the rare cases their grievances are real, it rarely if ever has to do with the subject under discussion at this point.
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Jan 6, 2023 03:50
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Acebuckeye13 posted:That's... what it is, though. The House of Commons is the House of Representatives, the House of Lords is the Senate, and the King is the President. It's just that in the last 240 years, the power of the Lords and King greatly declined into symbolic roles, while the Senate maintained its power and the President grew much stronger. If it actually mirrored this the President would appoint the government from members of the House (and the Senate), who would remain with their parliamentary duties, and the President would also be able to disband Parliament and call for an election.
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Jan 6, 2023 03:55
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Shooting Blanks posted:I'm morbidly curious to know how Fox/OANN/Truth Social/etc. are somehow claiming this is the Democrats' fault. Not curious to go look, but still. Democrats continue handing votes to Jeffries, who has long history of denying elections
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Jan 6, 2023 03:57
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Gyges posted:Democrats continue handing votes to Jeffries, who has long history of denying elections Could you tl;dr that? I'm not giving them clicks.
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Jan 6, 2023 03:58
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Shooting Blanks posted:I'm morbidly curious to know how Fox/OANN/Truth Social/etc. are somehow claiming this is the Democrats' fault. Not curious to go look, but still. "The Democrats are voting in lockstep to keep the House from getting a Speaker" Bing bang so simple
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Jan 6, 2023 03:58
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KillHour posted:This chart from Wikipedia is my favorite thing. The two time loser Donald Trump!
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Jan 6, 2023 04:04
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Could you tl;dr that? I'm not giving them clicks. It's because Jeffries said the Trump campaign coordinated with Russian intelligence
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Jan 6, 2023 04:08
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At what point does reality necessarily imply that there is no unified "Republican Party", and therefore such a party does not have a majority of seats in congress? Who even are the GOP leadership right now? E - the illusion of party unity creates the implication of a house majority. There is no party unity, therefore there is no majority. It ought to be decided by plurality. Uglycat fucked around with this message at 04:12 on Jan 6, 2023 |
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Jan 6, 2023 04:08
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Absurd Alhazred posted:If it actually mirrored this the President would appoint the government from members of the House (and the Senate), who would remain with their parliamentary duties, and the President would also be able to disband Parliament and call for an election. It's important to remember that when our deified idiots wrote our constitution, we were less a united country and more a union of individual countries. Founding USA was more like the EU than any actual single country, which was best seen in our first disastrous attempt at forming a Confederacy instead of a Republic. As a result all of our tweeks to existing democratic forms, and the underlying assumptions we built this shitshow on, are predicated on power and alliances leaning towards local rather than national forces. As a result we were terrified that some loving Virginian President would gently caress over the New England led House. Or perhaps the loving New Englanders would use their Congressional powers to destroy the interests of the good Carolina. So nobody is able to do anything on their own, lest THEY gently caress with US. Absurd Alhazred posted:Could you tl;dr that? I'm not giving them clicks. Basically, just a retelling of how McCarthy isn't winning. However what we should really be focusing on is that Jeffries is an election denier, and the Democrats say they don't like that. What despicable hypo...Hey, stop looking at the Republican shitshow going on right now...Democrats are hypocrites and Jeffries hates 'Merica.
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Jan 6, 2023 04:09
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James Garfield posted:It's because Jeffries said the Trump campaign coordinated with Russian intelligence 
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Jan 6, 2023 04:09
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evilweasel posted:a motion to vacate the chair But they have to vote for the rule threshold for that. Kevin promises it will be a one vote threshold, but the rule doesn't currently exist, does it? So how can a motion to vacate work? Or does the previous 'half the caucus' threshold still in force?
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Jan 6, 2023 04:11
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