|
OddObserver posted:US, Germany, France and UK all made their own Don't forget the Italian Ariete! Oh no wait, please forget Ariete...
|
#
?
Jan 9, 2023 19:21
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 08:02 |
|
|
Sad Panda posted:Isn't there a standardised NATO tank? Just wondering as the concern of here's a handful of another tank that you need to train the operation and maintenance. Seems like it will segment things even more. There's no standard tank but they all generally standardized around a single tank gun, or at least something close enough so they can all use the same ammunition. Like the Leopard 2, M1A1/2, Leclerc, Japanese Type 90/10, Korean K1A1/K2, etc... are all different tanks but all use some version of the Rheinmetall 120mm cannon at least partially so if a war did happen there'd be a simplified logistics situation with regards to ammo. Before that it was different versions of the 105mm L7. Not to say they never tried though. Germany and the US tried to make a single co-designed tank in the 60s and 70s with the MBT-70 program but it failed for a number of reasons. Mr Luxury Yacht fucked around with this message at 19:50 on Jan 9, 2023 |
|
#
?
Jan 9, 2023 19:48
|
|
|
OddObserver posted:US, Germany, France and UK all made their own, and only the first two made them in significant numbers --- with the German Leopard 2s mostly split over a whole bunch of countries with most having tiny numbers. A bit of googling says that there has been ~3600 Leo2's ever built, 10 400 M1 Abrams and 447 Challenger 2's. On Leo2's in 1994, Germany operated a total of 2,125 2A4s and Netherlands had about a 450 on top of that; these are the ones that were sold all over the world and are most likely in more or less working order, if probably starting to show their age with the equipment level, especially those in service outside NATO countries unless they have been kept updated. 2A5, 2A6 and 2A7 does not exist in large enough reserve numbers to be really considered a candidate for donations, unless Germany starts to give away theirs.
|
|
#
?
Jan 9, 2023 19:48
|
|
|
The plan is to convert just 148 of the Challenger 2s to 3s, retiring the rest. Combined with reductions in the AFVs at the same time. Time will tell if the lessons of this war will change the plan.
|
|
#
?
Jan 9, 2023 20:20
|
|
|
Is there any particular reason the Leopard 2 is the clearly superior choice for Europe? It's already been established it's not feasible to train and manage a supply chain for Abramses in Ukraine in the middle of a war, but it strikes me as odd that you have:
...and yet there's a distinct lack of ability to make hay. Of course no country wants to be left without equipment they know how to use while still training on new equipment, but a cursory scan of Wikipedia tells us Morocco for one has:
There are reports that Morocco has sent spare parts, but that's it. Is the Abrams just too high maintenance or what am I missing?
|
|
#
?
Jan 9, 2023 21:09
|
|
|
Jasper Tin Neck posted:Is there any particular reason the Leopard 2 is the clearly superior choice for Europe? It's already been established it's not feasible to train and manage a supply chain for Abramses in Ukraine in the middle of a war, but it strikes me as odd that you have: From what I've heard, the big difference between the Leo and the Abrams is the engine. I believe the Leo has a standard diesel engine which is much easier to maintain and less fuel thirsty than the complex and gas guzzling engine the Abrams uses. So a Leo would be a better tank to supply to Ukraine. I could be wrong about all that though.
|
|
#
?
Jan 9, 2023 21:13
|
|
|
To be honest I think its political more than anything. If UK donates a brigade worth of Challenger 2's and EU can match that with brigade or two of Leo2A4's, when those run out M1 is on the table since NATO already gave MBTs. ^^^^^ That gas turbine engine is also an issue, and someone already mentioned that those Abrams in the US boneyards are not "drive away"-ready, they are little more than empty hulls that have everything useful removed so they need refurbishing anyway. And the last thing is that the new Abrams come with a new armor plating that US has been really stingy on giving away. Der Kyhe fucked around with this message at 21:20 on Jan 9, 2023 |
|
#
?
Jan 9, 2023 21:16
|
|
|
How was the US able to supply Iraq with Abrams? I mean ok so Iraq wasn't involved a massive war with a neighboring country at the time but what about all the other logistical challenges? I believe they got export versions and the armor isn't the same as what the US versions have but is it the same engine? Did the US have maintenance personnel on site in Iraq?
|
|
#
?
Jan 9, 2023 21:35
|
|
|
Charliegrs posted:How was the US able to supply Iraq with Abrams? I mean ok so Iraq wasn't involved a massive war with a neighboring country at the time but what about all the other logistical challenges? I believe they got export versions and the armor isn't the same as what the US versions have but is it the same engine? Did the US have maintenance personnel on site in Iraq? I thought the US just left all its Abrams in Iraq rather than ship them back stateside.
|
|
#
?
Jan 9, 2023 21:44
|
|
|
Pook Good Mook posted:I thought the US just left all its Abrams in Iraq rather than ship them back stateside.
|
|
#
?
Jan 9, 2023 22:02
|
|
|
Charliegrs posted:How was the US able to supply Iraq with Abrams? I mean ok so Iraq wasn't involved a massive war with a neighboring country at the time but what about all the other logistical challenges? I believe they got export versions and the armor isn't the same as what the US versions have but is it the same engine? Did the US have maintenance personnel on site in Iraq? They had a lot more time to get things together. The US first leased M1A1s to Iraq in 2008 for training and then didn't start delivering them proper for two years. That's a lot of time to train crews and maintenance personnel, get logistics up and running, etc... Not to mention fuel was probably less of a concern for Iraq than Ukraine.
|
|
#
?
Jan 9, 2023 22:05
|
|
|
Mr Luxury Yacht posted:They had a lot more time to get things together. The US first leased M1A1s to Iraq in 2008 for training and then didn't start delivering them proper for two years. That's a lot of time to train crews and maintenance personnel, get logistics up and running, etc... Gotcha. I know that when the US supplied Iraq with F16s I think they had to base American maintenance personnel there too. And that's with more time and a much less intense war going on that's happening in Ukraine.
|
|
#
?
Jan 9, 2023 23:14
|
|
|
This seems more aimed at Germany since they claim they won't send tanks unless someone else does it first. UK doesn't have many tanks to send, so this would be them saying poo poo or get off the pot to Germany.
|
|
#
?
Jan 9, 2023 23:23
|
|
|
Charliegrs posted:From what I've heard, the big difference between the Leo and the Abrams is the engine. I believe the Leo has a standard diesel engine which is much easier to maintain and less fuel thirsty than the complex and gas guzzling engine the Abrams uses. So a Leo would be a better tank to supply to Ukraine. I could be wrong about all that though. Granted, I'm not a mechanical engineer, but aren't turbine engines attractive specifically because they have much fewer parts to maintain than reciprocating engines, simplifying maintenance? Secret armor tech seems like the most plausible obstacle for some kind of deal that would end with a transfer of e.g. Bulgarian T-72s.
|
|
#
?
Jan 9, 2023 23:26
|
|
|
Shibawanko posted:how much of a threat is the belarussian army? Threat level: hilarious
|
|
#
?
Jan 9, 2023 23:35
|
|
|
Several reports from different media talking about Soledar being enveloped by RuF https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1612588298509090817
|
|
#
?
Jan 10, 2023 00:27
|
|
|
Our entire defense was based on the concept to make any potential invasion unprofitable in terms of gains/losses and than our ally the undefeatable russia will roll in and make things right. I have no idea for what possible purpose would anyone would want to conquer Belarus except ...well... loving russia, against whom we got no defenses whatsoever. And their army has free reign to do what they please now anyway. If Ukraine is to crush them, we have a chance. Pls write to your goddamn politicians for more weapons to Ukraine, I know its silly but better than nothing
|
|
#
?
Jan 10, 2023 00:31
|
|
|
Intro, excerpts, highlights, etc. SMO background briefing from 9JAN23. Not much, really. Link: https://www.defense.gov/News/Transcripts/Transcript/Article/3262960/senior-defense-official-holds-a-background-briefing/ -Cannot confirm any Russian plans of further mobilization -Still does not assess that Belarus is planning to enter the conflict or for Russia to launch ground attack out of Belarus -Working out the combined arms training over "next several months" with initial kickoff "later this month." Ukraine able to rotate forces to attend training, R&R, etc. -Fighting remains intense around Bakhmut and surrounding towns. Lots of artillery, intense fighting, often over 100-100s of meters of territory or platoon positions at a time. -Sees generlaly positive results from Ukraine's air defense efforts, from the perspective of withstanding and reducing effectiveness of Russian attacks on civil infrastructure -No territory movement vic Kherson; Ukraine still dealiing with operations to clear mines, booby-traps, debris, etc. quote:SENIOR MILITARY OFFICIAL: Thanks, Sabrina. Charliegrs posted:How was the US able to supply Iraq with Abrams? It was a sales deal that took a couple years to execute and ship, and Iraq paid about $800 million for them.
|
|
#
?
Jan 10, 2023 00:52
|
|
|
Jasper Tin Neck posted:Granted, I'm not a mechanical engineer, but aren't turbine engines attractive specifically because they have much fewer parts to maintain than reciprocating engines, simplifying maintenance? They chose the turbine for the Abrams because it was already a big and heavy machine and stuffing a diesel into it would just make it bigger and heavier. The turbine offers more power and better acceleration in a lighter and smaller package. It's also easy to remove and replace, so when there's a problem they just pop a new one in and send the tank on its way while they can repair the engine in the shop. The downside is that it consumes enormous amounts of fuel, which was deemed an acceptable trade-off.
|
|
#
?
Jan 10, 2023 00:56
|
|
|
If you have money and fuel to throw around, turbines are wonderful. If you are lacking in either of the above... not so great.
|
|
#
?
Jan 10, 2023 01:57
|
|
|
a minor item i didn't see mentioned russia claimed a revenge strike on a ukranian billet near kramatorsk killed upward of 600 when a reuters team arrived at the strike, they found both buildings essentially intact. not only did they see no evidence of mass casualties, it was not clear that ukrainian soldiers were even occupying the structures during the strike sometimes it really does feel like one should just take the reverse message from any russian official line
|
|
#
?
Jan 10, 2023 02:00
|
|
|
GhostofJohnMuir posted:a minor item i didn't see mentioned "Don't believe anything till the Kremlin denies it" is a very old joke.
|
|
#
?
Jan 10, 2023 02:22
|
|
|
PT6A posted:If you have money and fuel to throw around, turbines are wonderful. If you are lacking in either of the above... not so great. That depends on the size of the engine. The current most efficient engines on the planet to generate power with are actually a variant of gas turbines. CoGas beats out large slow speed diesels with waste heat boilers in cycle efficiency. Basically CoGas is a gas turbine with the exhaust running a boiler steam cycle.
|
|
#
?
Jan 10, 2023 03:11
|
|
|
Yeah the inefficiency of turbines results in a bunch of waste heat, and in some applications you can recover that waste heat for other useful purposes. However, all of that recovery requires space and mass and so they aren't well suited to an armored fighting vehicle that you need to make as small as possible. Better to just burn fuel and dump heat out.
|
|
#
?
Jan 10, 2023 03:21
|
|
|
Bar Ran Dun posted:That depends on the size of the engine. True, it scales very nicely. Look at the insane radial engines that airplanes used before the turbine was commonly used: if you want a lot of power out of one engine, it's gonna be a monster, and it will suck fuel like a bastard. Whereas with a turbine, you can essentially say: I want this, but much larger, for more power... and it works.
|
|
#
?
Jan 10, 2023 04:05
|
|
|
January 8-10 round-up Lots of corpses on twitters/telegrams today, especially from Bakhmut area. News around it are also giving off a weird vibe, that basically neither side is sure that they've got it there anymore, with messaging all over the place. Based on stuff like https://t.me/csources/174888 it's probably safe to say that Soledar, if not Bakhmut itself, are contested proper now. No deep dives today. Regular articles: Zelenskyy says that Bakhmut and Soledar yet hold, but that additional reinforcements will be availed for both. https://t.me/V_Zelenskiy_official/4694 Russia claims to have killed 600 soldiers in a strike on Kramatorsk, in an explicit revenge strike for Makiivka, with seemingly with about as much to show for it as has had for destroying all 800 HIMARS systems of Ukraine. https://www.euractiv.com/section/global-europe/news/ukraine-denies-russian-claim-of-600-killed-in-kramatorsk-strike/d Ukrainian military intelligence claims that the second mobilization wave to draft up to 500k people. They've also moved the expected start date from January 5 to January 15. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/06/russia-preparing-mobilise-extra-500000-conscripts-claims-ukraine British government might be deliberating over supplying Challenger 2 tanks to Ukraine. https://www.ft.com/content/87a94322-23a0-4734-a87a-11e7995743ed Pentagon is buying for Ukraine a number of Vampire anti-drone systems. https://www.l3harris.com/newsroom/press-release/2023/01/l3harris-receives-vampire-contract-ukrainian-security-defense Lapin has been promoted to the chief of land forces of RuAF. https://www.rbc.ru/politics/10/01/2023/63bd09389a794708391c3120 Putin is using secret decrees to grant clemency to the recruited convicts before they get shipped off to the frontline. https://t.me/rian_ru/190798 Ukrainian Bradleys, presumably, spotted in Bulgaria. https://t.me/operativnoZSU/68690 https://twitter.com/P_Fiala/status/1612500070523408398 Other summaries: https://notes.citeam.org/dispatch-jan-5-9 https://notes.citeam.org/mobi-jan-6-8 https://zona.media/chronicle/320 https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-january-9-2023 https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-january-8-2023 cinci zoo sniper fucked around with this message at 14:50 on Jan 10, 2023 |
|
#
?
Jan 10, 2023 12:23
|
|
|
huh, the dumb fire rockets in the recent list of weapons from the US seemed to be an odd choice of supply but it makes a LOT more sense if it is integrated with APKWS and the Vampire system to fight drones. Basically, a hydra 70 with a precision kit becomes a really cheap AA missile - on the back of a 76 Landcruiser ute and it is mobile AA missile system. They will need many because I can see them using that same system as a precision rocket sniper against soft ground targets.
|
|
#
?
Jan 10, 2023 13:22
|
|
|
German gas stores are still 91% full. Assuming a regular remaining winter like in 2016, the storages will be at 65% at the end of April and filling them up over the summer is not going to be very difficult. The weather is really not on Russia's side lately. https://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/g...27-a0a4ba1d3ad2
|
|
#
?
Jan 10, 2023 14:28
|
|
|
Yeah, and Russia got hit with cold wave, which caused a lot of problems.
|
|
#
?
Jan 10, 2023 15:21
|
|
|
Is that guy still live streaming his stove burner?
|
|
#
?
Jan 10, 2023 15:29
|
|
|
Phone posting so I don't have the link right now, but the US is going to train Ukrainian soldiers on Patriots at Fort Sill in Oklahoma.
|
|
#
?
Jan 10, 2023 17:14
|
|
|
GABA ghoul posted:German gas stores are still 91% full. Assuming a regular remaining winter like in 2016, the storages will be at 65% at the end of April and filling them up over the summer is not going to be very difficult. The weather is really not on Russia's side lately. Europe wide we're at 83% too which is far above historical norms. At this same point in 2022 storage was only at about 55%.  You can track it here: https://agsi.gie.eu/ On quite a few days recently storage levels have actually been going up thanks to the heatwave across Europe. Which is obviously very unusual for late December/early January, it couldn't have happened at a better time. Refilling reserves this summer from a point 20-30% higher than expected is going to make a huge difference to getting in enough supply for winter 2023-24, its very bad news for Putin's influence.
|
|
#
?
Jan 10, 2023 17:21
|
|
|
German FM Baerbock visited Kharkiv: https://mobile.twitter.com/DmytroKuleba/status/1612839384105074689
|
|
#
?
Jan 10, 2023 17:50
|
|
|
Moon Slayer posted:Phone posting so I don't have the link right now, but the US is going to train Ukrainian soldiers on Patriots at Fort Sill in Oklahoma. https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/10/politics/ukrainians-patriot-missiles-fort-sill/index.html
|
|
#
?
Jan 10, 2023 18:10
|
|
|
All this arms delivery and training should have been done months ago. These APCs are nice but I think the only thing that is going to make a significant difference in the short term is attack drones and ammunition and western operators flying these remotely as well as the longer range Himars missles. We have asked enough from the Ukrainians and this is all pointless slaughter.
|
|
#
?
Jan 10, 2023 18:59
|
|
|
If anyone is wondering, the message is the kinda boring "to the brave defenders of Ukraine"
|
|
#
?
Jan 10, 2023 19:19
|
|
|
The news themselves being that they’re sending more tanks, to be clear.
|
|
#
?
Jan 10, 2023 19:21
|
|
|
cinci zoo sniper posted:The news themselves being that they’re sending more tanks, to be clear. How is it clear if this guy is scribbling notes all over it?! 
|
|
#
?
Jan 10, 2023 19:33
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/DefMon3/status/1612857484049551360?s=20&t=VXepHQiTd4Wz_HY-PIirjA Possible that Ukrainian forces have decided that Soledar isn't worth it. Bakhmut might follow.
|
|
#
?
Jan 10, 2023 19:34
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 08:02 |
|
|
cinci zoo sniper posted:The news themselves being that they’re sending more tanks, to be clear. It's also significant that the PM is the one scribbling the note
|
|
#
?
Jan 10, 2023 20:30
|
|