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Yeah, it’s way more important to figure out who the best solo mid is and what the state of Roshan buffs are
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Jan 8, 2023 14:32
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Also I’m cool if a podcast quotes me directly as long as they point out how the thread accused me of being a homophobe because I thought it was loving gross that a dude orchestrated his friend’s death and beheading so he could make out with it. Thread Cassandra I was
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Jan 8, 2023 14:37
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O that he were here to write me down an rear end! I think Hussie's "turning it over to the fans" was more rhetorical than real. In practice, it meant "turning it over to a group of my friends". (Who got infinite and inappropriate abuse, to be clear.) IIRC, and my memory is bad, one of the official fans had an absolute shitfit when people said that they didn't like Vriska being trans, and called complainers transphobes. Corrections on details welcome, but the shitfitting was absolutely coming from inside the house. Leaving aside the author's intentions and goals, looking back through less-fannish lenses than I wore at the time, the worst shift in Homesock*, to me, was when it became less joyful. Early Hussie, certainly through Cascade and Act V, was having fun, and the fun bubbled over into the work. Horrible things happened, absolutely, but they weren't grindingly tedious. * Typo, and I'm keeping it.
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Jan 8, 2023 17:49
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I love Homestuck as a totality, but yeah, I totally agree that the places where the work suffers most are where Hussie's sense of ironic detachment (which is a crucial, hilarious and heartbreaking storytelling tool in much of the comic) gets amped up just a little too much and the tone jumps from "detached irony over a layer of heartfelt character work" to "detached irony about the concept of character work". I'm thinking of, like, the scene just before the climax where Tavros' ghost stands up to Vriska's ghost and the narration basically goes CHARACTER ARC, LOOK, LIKE YOU WANTED, YOU STUPID HOGS in the most detached possible way. Nobody wanted that and it also isn't really funny. It's a meta-joke of the exact sort Hussie talks about in the leadup to Cascade, to wit, "if you break the fourth wall too much, it nullifies the ability of the audience to give a poo poo". The strongest parts of the comic on a narrative level are places where anti-climax and emotional detachment suddenly dovetail with something true or heartbreaking about one of the characters. That's where you get moments like Vriska's death, Karkat falling in hate with John, Dave looking at the blood on his hands after he throws his own corpse out of a window - subtle, understated, funny, avoiding the structure of formal drama but still delivering an emotional payload. In places where a sense of self-consciousness about the work kicks in though, it feels like Hussie regards the concept of emotional catharsis as itself unworthy of their attention, which makes a lot of the comic's final scenes play really flat.
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Jan 8, 2023 18:03
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i like the podcast, and rangedtouch's stuff in general looking forward to the final part(isodes) 
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Jan 8, 2023 18:08
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Pants Donkey posted:Oh ho, you think yourself clever, but I deemed those texts canon to Homestuck. I mean you can call whatever you like canon, the text of Homestuck is the text. Whether or not Yoda's first name being Minch is "canon" (not a real thing) to the "star wars universe" (also not a real thing) has no bearing on the film star wars: episode v: the empire strikes back, a complete work in itself which requires no outside intervention the real fun starts when we try to cabin our reading strictly to the text of Homestuck and have to decide if "I feel ... Caucasian!!!" still counts
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Jan 8, 2023 18:17
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the thing with hussie talking about how he didn't have control over what the characters did is that, to them, I suspect that it was literally true in any way that matters. like obviously andrew hussie was out there doing the thing, but working at the pace they did for as long as they did, I imagine it had more in common with a very extended roleplaying session than it did writing a story. At the start of homestuck, Andrew certainly sat down and plotted out what they wanted to happen, and defined the characters, but once it was in full swing they likely didn't allow themselves enough time to have the conversation "ok, I need Vriska to chill out for even a moment, how do I manipulate events so that it doesn't seem wildly out of character", they just needed to have vriska go full vriska mode because unless the only thing to do is wait, that's what vriska is. IMO this is why a lot of fans don't like the ending of homestuck, because before they put pen to paper andrew actually plotted the thing so it would, you know, end. as to "anything can be canon", hussie was literally right, and you can't say they were wrong. if I'm talking to other homestuck fans, I can count on them agreeing that the webcomic homestuck is canon to the webcomic homestuck. everything after that is wishy-washy. The epilogues smell vaguely of canon. canon adjacent, for sure, but them being non-canon is important to understanding them. they both rely on assumptions that are, frankly, insane to believe for the sake of re-introducing conflict into the lives of these kids. And that's fine! are the games canon? I don't know, but they sure aren't required reading to say that you've read homestuck! I think if you've read homestuck but you HAVEN'T read the epilogues you're a rube and a fool. but if you haven't played hiveswap? friendsim? that's fine. are fanworks canon? some of them are at least as canon as the epilogues honestly. ain't no argument that you can make to somehow make Godfeels lesser in my mind than the epilogues. if you haven't read Godfeels by Sarah Zedig go read Godfeels right now, it's the best direct sequel to homestuck I've seen. TL;DR if you think canon begins with homestuck 1 and ends with act 7 you're valid. if someone thinks canon extends to their friends 9000 page fancomic where a poorly drawn karkat makes out with a buff jade, they're also valid (and I would love to know what's up with their deal, frankly)
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Jan 10, 2023 13:28
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the inaugural death of mister seven is the only canon fanwork you need and the one thats really nicely animated with rose and her cat iirc? that one was cute
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Jan 10, 2023 14:12
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Half serious: the full detective pony fan work is probably more canon than the epilogues, at least in the sense that it doesn't contradict the web comic as much. In true seriousness, I think one of the things that blurred what counts as canon for me is a combination of how the comic started as a series of fan commands, how other creators were involved almost from the start and certainly towards the end, and the overall context of how many references there were to Hussie's other works. Even if I drew the line at the web comic itself, that would be a valid reading and it would be a complete story, but it wouldn't feel as... contextually complete without at least acknowledging where some of the more out there references came from.
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Jan 10, 2023 15:03
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Cavatica posted:Half serious: the full detective pony fan work is probably more canon than the epilogues, at least in the sense that it doesn't contradict the web comic as much. its not even just this. the comic is littered with contextual debris, like sweet bro & hella jeffs entire art style & format being cribbed from hussie's dunk on one specific penny arcade forums user. you dont need to know this to enjoy the comic but at the same time in 2010 as a serial reader its kind of assumed you would
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Jan 10, 2023 16:30
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egg tats posted:if I'm talking to other homestuck fans, I can count on them agreeing that the webcomic homestuck is canon to the webcomic homestuck. everything after that is wishy-washy. 
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Jan 10, 2023 18:15
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Arsenic Lupin posted:Nothing after [S] Game Over is canon. I think that was the last past of the comic that I enjoyed and actually made me feel genuine emotions, come to think of it.
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Jan 10, 2023 18:37
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isasphere posted:I think that was the last past of the comic that I enjoyed and actually made me feel genuine emotions, come to think of it. 
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Jan 10, 2023 18:44
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Hot take: Nothing after [S] Cascade (i.e., the point where Jack Noir stopped being the main antagonist) counts much imho
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Jan 10, 2023 18:48
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Nothing about Homestuck was good
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Jan 10, 2023 18:49
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I enjoyed most of the Love Eldritch Geometry stuff. Does that make me weird?
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Jan 10, 2023 18:53
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Delphisage posted:I enjoyed most of the Love Eldritch Geometry stuff. Does that make me weird? What was that?
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Jan 10, 2023 19:01
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i liked [s] terezi: remem8er
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Jan 10, 2023 19:06
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haha what posted:i liked [s] terezi: remem8er Me, too.
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Jan 10, 2023 19:12
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Nothing is canon, there is no deeper meaning to existence, you cannot ascribe reason to it. Read kill 6 billion demons. Throw hands with God
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Jan 10, 2023 19:38
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There were a few parts of good emotional delivery after game over that I enjoyed, but it was disappointing overall
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Jan 10, 2023 19:38
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isasphere posted:I think that was the last past of the comic that I enjoyed and actually made me feel genuine emotions, come to think of it. god as someone who got into homestuck a year ago, I can't relate. like I get that I'm the weird one as someone who thinks homestuck had a good ending and that the epilogues aren't bad, but thinking that Caliborn's masterpiece is bad? disregarding his downfall? shameful. I know that there's people so apoplecticly mad about vriska that they haven't stopped screaming since april 2015 but there's legitimately good poo poo in there. it's a real baby with the bathwater situation frankly edit: vvvvv Terezi's death is possibly one of the coolest things to happen in the entire comic. Terezi rules, anyone who doesn't like terezi isn't welcome in my home
egg tats fucked around with this message at 22:52 on Jan 10, 2023 |
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Jan 10, 2023 22:30
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M_Gargantua posted:There were a few parts of good emotional delivery after game over that I enjoyed, but it was disappointing overall
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Jan 10, 2023 22:46
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Terezi in general was one of the highpoints of the finale
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Jan 10, 2023 22:52
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Arsenic Lupin posted:Terezi drawing a crime-scene line and then dropping dead in it was metal.
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Jan 10, 2023 22:52
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NieR Occomata posted:Also I’m cool if a podcast quotes me directly as long as they point out how the thread accused me of being a homophobe because I thought it was loving gross that a dude orchestrated his friend’s death and beheading so he could make out with it. I was going to say something like "you have to admit mailing your own head to a guy with a note saying 'no time to explain, kiss me' is at least audacious" before realizing, no wait thats the other decapitated head make-out Homestuck: It's a Definitely a Story Where Stuff Happens
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Jan 10, 2023 23:40
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M_Gargantua posted:Terezi in general was one of the highpoints
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Jan 10, 2023 23:46
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paranoid randroid posted:I was going to say something like "you have to admit mailing your own head to a guy with a note saying 'no time to explain, kiss me' is at least audacious" before realizing, no wait thats the other decapitated head make-out Man, Hussie loves his recycling.
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Jan 11, 2023 00:04
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Obviously any cut-off point that eliminates Davekat is invalid.
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Jan 11, 2023 00:11
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IMO, the primary selling point of the comic was always the character work with the plot a distinct second, which is a stance that I think Hussie mostly agreed with-it's not reflected on much but there's a low-key running theme about how the actual plot of Sburb the game is incredibly generic and mostly pointless busywork that I don't think would be there if we were supposed to take it as a focal point. That worked pretty well for most of the run because it meant the comic could mostly focus on characters bouncing off each other or the circumstances they put themselves into, and have the freedom to drop a major plot twist whenever things started slowing down without coming off as contrived, but it also meant that when the time came to actually reach a conclusion there suddenly wasn't much left to support the plot, which is why Terezi: Remember is basically the actual conclusion and everything afterwards was so off. It also hamstrung the epilogues right from the start because their entire point was loving with the characterization of everyone without any real buildup, and the new characters had no time to grow. If Hussie was still on top of his game it might have been OK regardless, but between the Kickstarter fallout and him generally burning out and his ironic fandom baiting coming home to roost he basically checked out well before hand, and the end result was exposing an unsuspecting team to the most rabid parts of the fandom with no protection, and we all know how that ended up. It was probably inevitable that things wouldn't end well just from how high the house of cards was built but it probably wouldn't have exploded quite so badly if things hadn't gone wrong on the back end first.
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Jan 11, 2023 00:23
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I agree that Homestuck is mostly a character-driven coming of age story with a wild Creation Myth as the backdrop. Hussie either changed his mind or had different ideas entirely, as we basically got the big character moments unceremoniously dumped right before the end. Like, it’s legitimately funny to tease that stuff, but you can’t do that forever without hurting the story. And it likely doesn’t read as well for someone going in all at once than having it drip fed.
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Jan 11, 2023 01:06
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As someone who was reading the comic actively while it was still going, and got started on by someone going "This weird sprite comic and naruto abridged aren't funny, here, try this problem sleuth thing" It really, REALLY feels like the message of the entirety of the last-last act and the finale drop in general, but also the Giant Jade Exposition Dump in particular, is "I want to be done. I want to be done writing this thing. I don't want to write the same character beats over and over and over just because you haven't seen them with this particular version of the character. It's done and I wanna be done and sometimes things just end and not every single little thread is resolved because life sucks like that, kids, now shut up and go live it." And it really does just fall flat as a massive return after months and months of radio silence on the matter That's my two cents anyway.
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Jan 11, 2023 02:28
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I definitely get that vibe, and I can’t blame him as Homestuck’s setting and cast could enable him to keep writing for several years longer. The dude’s life had been literally Homestuck every waking moment, and taking time away from it can really change your perspective and make it hard to go back to what was, in all honesty, an unhealthy work/life balance. Webcomic burnout is real, especially for younger creatives who realize they want to do more with their career than a comic they loosely plotted out ten years ago as a kid and didn’t expect to spend their entire 20s working on it. Not everyone can be Tom Siddell and consistently chug away on one story for 20+ years.
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Jan 11, 2023 06:14
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To be clear, Hussie was 30 the year homestuck started.
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Jan 11, 2023 06:53
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Webcomics are pretty notorious for never finishing or having hectic update schedules. It was true during his time, before his time, and now.
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Jan 11, 2023 10:06
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The best part of the podcast is the revelation that nobody who read Homestuck had basic media literacy and just kept asking dumb questions about poo poo that didn't matter
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Jan 11, 2023 16:33
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The Deleter posted:The best part of the podcast is the revelation that nobody who read Homestuck had basic media literacy and just kept asking dumb questions about poo poo that didn't matter to quote Certified Homestuck Expert Sarah Zedig: Sarah! posted:if i were to go on twitter right now and post “homestuck is good” i’d end the day with at least five comments saying “lol no it’s not.” SOME OF THOSE PEOPLE WILL HAVE HOMESTUCK AVATARS. there are few things as cringe as liking homestuck even among people who like homestuck, so who cares? i like homestuck, i like the epilogues, i like hs2, and i think a pretty gargantuan majority of this fandom are subliterate babies.
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Jan 11, 2023 16:50
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Like I'm not sitting here in a pile of Marx or postmodern bookthinking stuff or whatever but when the comic has a character who is explicitly the author's idea of a "bad reader" doing stuff on screen it is somewhat bewildering to me that everyone was instead concerned with how tall Gamzee is
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Jan 11, 2023 17:28
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The Deleter posted:Like I'm not sitting here in a pile of Marx or postmodern bookthinking stuff or whatever but when the comic has a character who is explicitly the author's idea of a "bad reader" doing stuff on screen it is somewhat bewildering to me that everyone was instead concerned with how tall Gamzee is probably becayuse it's funny to debate how tall gamzee is it's very tall be the way
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Jan 11, 2023 17:31
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life_source posted:probably becayuse it's funny to debate how tall gamzee is its however tall he needs to be to do those sick wrestling moves on terezi
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Jan 11, 2023 17:34
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