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ItohRespectArmy posted:d&d is less of a game and more of a vibe at this point Frankly, this exact fact is why I don't think D&D is gonna get slowed down by this all that much. We're gonna see a bunch of heartbreakers pop up, people will shift over to the one of their choice for a while, and then most of them are gonna quietly drift back to D&D because it's always been about the vibe for them, and none of these heartbreakers are going to supplant D&D as the pop culture phenomenon that generates the vibes they so desperately crave.
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Jan 11, 2023 17:19
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I don't really get this discussion--there are a whole bunch of really good RPG systems out there for all sorts of playstyles already, most of which don't use the OGL. Hell, even the OSR has been moving away from "cloning D&D's rules" to "applying modern design to dungeon crawl systems" for half a decade. There are better D&Ds out there than D&D, and there have been for a while. Hell, we're even in a renaissance of good system-agnostic dungeon fantasy game modules and content--most of which doesn't use the OGL. The fallout of this will hopefully be less creating new systems and more getting eyes on good systems that are already out there. What would be fun to see more of is stuff it takes a budget to make--big tactical options-heavy games with a lot of finely balanced content support. Games like 4e really thrive on a good budget, since they are relatively difficult to homebrew monsters/powers for. There are a few good games in that space like Lancer, but it feels like there's still a lot of untapped potential in that direction.
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Jan 11, 2023 17:22
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I'm not going to stop working on my own personal D&D clone that will probably never be finished anyway. If Wizards wants to sue me for my projected $20/year revenue stream, they're welcome to do so. Buncha drama queens in this industry
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Jan 11, 2023 17:32
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OtspIII posted:I don't really get this discussion--there are a whole bunch of really good RPG systems out there for all sorts of playstyles already, most of which don't use the OGL. Hell, even the OSR has been moving away from "cloning D&D's rules" to "applying modern design to dungeon crawl systems" for half a decade. There are better D&Ds out there than D&D, and there have been for a while. Hell, we're even in a renaissance of good system-agnostic dungeon fantasy game modules and content--most of which doesn't use the OGL. The fallout of this will hopefully be less creating new systems and more getting eyes on good systems that are already out there. The people who are screaming the sky is falling live entirely inside D&D's walled garden. They barely know other games exist, and they don't want to play any of them because they're not The D&D Brand. For most of us, yeah, this is a wet fart that's not gonna affect any of the games we like, which is why we're cracking jokes at the people who claim 'this will kill the industry' and other nonsense.
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Jan 11, 2023 17:39
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Tsilkani posted:The people who are screaming the sky is falling live entirely inside D&D's walled garden. They barely know other games exist, and they don't want to play any of them because they're not The D&D Brand. For most of us, yeah, this is a wet fart that's not gonna affect any of the games we like, which is why we're cracking jokes at the people who claim 'this will kill the industry' and other nonsense.  "
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Jan 11, 2023 17:54
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Pvt.Scott posted:I'm not going to stop working on my own personal D&D clone that will probably never be finished anyway. If Wizards wants to sue me for my projected $20/year revenue stream, they're welcome to do so. Buncha drama queens in this industry
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Jan 11, 2023 17:56
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ItohRespectArmy posted:d&d is less of a game and more of a vibe at this point And the new license is basically is WotC trying to monetize that vibe.
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Jan 11, 2023 17:57
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OtspIII posted:What would be fun to see more of is stuff it takes a budget to make--big tactical options-heavy games with a lot of finely balanced content support. Games like 4e really thrive on a good budget, since they are relatively difficult to homebrew monsters/powers for. There are a few good games in that space like Lancer, but it feels like there's still a lot of untapped potential in that direction. Pretty much. In particular indie games operating in D&D's design space, even when they're much more elegantly designed in terms of core systems, are often incredibly sparse in terms of GM-facing materials; DIY is all you get. It makes sense since content is largely a function of manpower, but that's all the more reason it'd be nice to see more medium-sized developers get in on it.
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Jan 11, 2023 17:59
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https://twitter.com/doctorow/status/1613200704511819776?t=vUa_w1lx5jvt-xRW6kmSYg&s=19
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Jan 11, 2023 18:14
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Unrelated to OGL 1.1 but the 2d20 Community Licensing is up. https://www.modiphius.net/en-us/pages/2d20worldbuilders
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Jan 11, 2023 18:15
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gradenko_2000 posted:https://twitter.com/doctorow/status/1613200704511819776?t=vUa_w1lx5jvt-xRW6kmSYg&s=19 I loving hate Doctorow even when I kind of agree with him.
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Jan 11, 2023 18:20
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The best case scenario is that future gamers are really loving skeptical of anything before 2023 because it's "all loving D&D" with six stats, hit points, levels, and one DM. Like, let's get into new loving ideas already. One major hurdle is that new systems face is that historically there's not a favorable work:payoff ratio. Because a lot of systems aren't good, and you're not going to find players willing to bother when they already have something that sorta works. So forcing the solution of removing the "adequate but not great" framework is incredibly promising for the future of the hobby. TL;DR Saxophone posted:Genuinely odd watching the thread oscillate from ‘this is bad and will kill the hobby’ to mocking any company that, in light of this, is having a go at creating new systems to keep the hobby alive and well. This is bad for D&D and D&D-derivatives, which could be the best thing to happen to the hobby. The OGL basically gave it a "decentralized monopoly" on how RPGs work by wrangling developers into their big tent.
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Jan 11, 2023 18:26
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Cross posting my post from the OneD&D Thread but: I think the best way of looking at this, especially as a DM is seeing that when people go ‘I wanna play D&D!’ What they’re actually saying is they want to play a TTRPG. And as a DM I then have the power to go ‘Cool! So I’m actually running Index Card RPG (or literally any other system) which is super cool because (elevator pitch) so heck yeah. Starting up is easy, I’ll send you some PDFs.’ And them going ‘ok cool.’ And not knowing the difference anyway. It’s very akin to someone going ‘I need to xerox this.’ They don’t want this copied on a Xerox machine. They just want a copy. That, I believe, is where D&D will lose tons of folks, because it exists largely as a synonym for tabletop gaming as a whole, but doesn’t necessarily have to mean D&D.
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Jan 11, 2023 18:49
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hyphz posted:Yea, with all this rush to create new systems it'll be interesting to see if any of them actually bother to mug up on game design from the last 22 years. Eh lots of it will suck but I'll bet we get some good stuff that sticks, too. Saxophone posted:Cross posting my post from the OneD&D Thread but: Yeah there's definitely a genericization going on. When I tell my girlfriend I have "D&D tonight" it's just easier than saying whatever new system we're trying. Splicer posted:We're all hoping for something real good supplanting D&D as the Cool Kids System but we've been here before and it's going to be 90% heartbreaker city. I just don't really see many existing heavily 5e-oriented companies having a genuine brainstorm meeting on "Do we actually need ability scores?" or even "Separate toughness stat... good or bad?". Like I'm not saying Kobold Press specifically is going to ship out "So your Health Points are based on your Survivability score, which runs from 8 to 20 for a -1 to +5 modifier", but I am laughing in anticipation of all the ones that will. Thing is that the "six stats" and probably even skills are un-copyrightable game mechanics. It's not like these words are unique creations or defendable IP; almost all those words are used to mean exactly their dictionary definition. You can't copyright using "strength" as a statistic to measure how strong someone is, or "intelligence" for how smart they are. JerikTelorian fucked around with this message at 19:04 on Jan 11, 2023 |
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Jan 11, 2023 18:54
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Splicer posted:We're all hoping for something real good supplanting D&D as the Cool Kids System but we've been here before and it's going to be 90% heartbreaker city. I just don't really see many existing heavily 5e-oriented companies having a genuine brainstorm meeting on "Do we actually need ability scores?" or even "Separate toughness stat... good or bad?". Like I'm not saying Kobold Press specifically is going to ship out "So your Health Points are based on your Survivability score, which runs from 8 to 20 for a -1 to +5 modifier", but I am laughing in anticipation of all the ones that will. Matt Colville specifically said he wants his game to shed all the things that are hanging around D&D just because "that's D&D," that he wants modern design, is absolutely not going to be 5e compatible, and that it's not even going to be d20 based. I'm not going to tell you whether the end result is going to be any good, but it seems like killing sacred cows and trying to be its own thing. At worst, I'd expect something more like a bad version of ICON than your standard wannabe D&D.
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Jan 11, 2023 18:57
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Pvt.Scott posted:I'm not going to stop working on my own personal D&D clone that will probably never be finished anyway. If Wizards wants to sue me for my projected $20/year revenue stream, they're welcome to do so. Buncha drama queens in this industry Maybe the people that built businesses and entire companies off of this have a reason for being a bit more concerned than you.
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Jan 11, 2023 18:58
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Saxophone posted:Cross posting my post from the OneD&D Thread but: Yeah, that's literally the example I used a few pages back. The best thing D&D 5th had going for it was that you could get a game if you're lazy. It was the default. loving that up is going to make a lot of people realize it's only a "meh" game, and if you have to go through the effort of making a choice, why would you choose a "meh" game.
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Jan 11, 2023 19:06
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Finster Dexter posted:What a crazy time we live in. So how many new Pathfinders is that in the last 48 hours? New OGL going pretty well for WotC. I doubt this was the original intention, but if we assume that getting VTT supremacy alongside One is the main objective, this situation might help WotC with that narrow objective. D&D Beyond will have a D&D-based VTT. They can focus on D&D-centric features, from integration with character sheets to D&D-specific condition markers to (possible) extra-fancy effects you can purchase. The other VTTs are faced with three foundational questions: 1. Can we afford to support one or two RPG systems exclusively? Maybe, but probably not. 2. Do we risk supporting WotC systems or just leave that to “user content”? If new OGL does happen, maybe you pull back on support, but that means losing market share for those D&D players. You’d need to make it up for others. 3. If we’re supporting lots of systems, how generic is our interface? The answer is “pretty generic”. So D&D Beyond VTT can have specific and targeted features and a very clear market. Meanwhile, the non-D&D market shifts away from third-party D&D material to a bunch of individial systems. Any VTT not supporting D&D has to try to serve most of those others. The more they diverge from the basic model, the harder it is to implement and maintain a VTT with any level of convenience beyond tokens, dice rolling, a chat, and a map. Take Roll20’s condition graphics which you can mark tokens with. In the D&D campaign I’m playing on Roll20, the GM frequently has to halt and work out which condition is closest to “charmed” or “slowed” and even “prone” because they’re such generic graphics. Now, a closed RPG ecology for One coupled with an open ecology for other systems is probably unhealthy for One over the long-term as a system. But between D&D’s market share and the desire of present executives to monetize via VTT, this closed ecology is good for them for a few years, and I’d wager neither of the new top execs at WotC plan on being in those positions 5-10 years doen the line. They’ll get bonuses based on VTT revenue through Beyond, then move to new positions at Microsoft or whatever and stick their successors with the problems their short-sighted approach creates. If D&D loses market share but increases profitability, Hasbro will be happy. Driving deeper wedges, getting D&D “brand identity” and cultivating whales who sink thousands of dollars into VTT features and cosmetics might be a goal. If your print products are coming out slowly, but you’re selling new character portraits and miniatures for the VTT on a weekly basis, your revenue goes up, and probably much faster than costs. Edit: There’s a decent chance that in the mid-run, assuming WotC’s VTT happens at all, we end up with their slick VTT aimed at the equivalent of the AAA video-game market, versus other VTTs running the equivalent of Dwarf Fortress. It isn’t that Dwarf Fortress isn’t good, it’s that it demands you bring a lot more to the table. Will casual gamers plus the D&D hardcore be enough to sustain the possible loss of some hardcore gamers who drop D&D? Narsham fucked around with this message at 19:32 on Jan 11, 2023 |
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Jan 11, 2023 19:20
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CitizenKeen posted:Yeah, that's literally the example I used a few pages back. I knew that was fresh in my mind for a reason. Also there’s a lot of games that have a way easier onboarding processes. I’ve had more than a few folks at the table get super overwhelmed at all the choices and abilities and spells and equipment and etc.
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Jan 11, 2023 19:33
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The discussion of content being available for DMs is something that absolutely can not be ignored, and it has been the bedrock for why many people like myself stayed in the OGL for all these decades. D&D 3.0/3.5 had lots of content a DM could pull from to make things especially because Paizo was producing modules, adventure paths, encounters, maps, etc. in their magazines long before Pathfinder was ever even dreamed of. It was also nice sometimes to take a break from DMing and let someone else run some other OGL game for a few sessions without everyone needing to learn a new system just to play astronauts fighting moon demons, or spies trying to smuggle nuclear codes. The OGL meant that 3rd party books had already been written that allowed us to massage 3.5 into something different when we wanted a break but didn't really want an entirely new way to play. In contrast to what some posters on this forum believe, the vast majority of us that went with Pathfinder, did so because Paizo spent years building up a customer base of DMs who trusted and liked their content, and to this day, they still produce ready-made material for DMs and players to slot into their games. The OGL in general gives 3rd party publishers the ability to create these toolkits for DMs and it is immensely useful for those of us that just want to run games for our friends (especially now that we can slot these into VTTs). Smaller indie game systems have always lacked this content on the DM side, which is fine but does create a barrier if you just want to quickly make something the night before you play. In fact, this very issue is cropping up now that I'm trying to run a game of Hunter: The Vigil. I've tried finding content from other GMs, even asking on the CoD discord server, only to discover that the community for that system will happily talk about lore, or themes, but walls off the crunch pretty hard. Considering the fact that the GM needs to stat out everything by hand, this definitely slows me down and makes it harder to break the inertia of starting to run the game. What really needs to be seen is how this affects DMs. The OGL and VTTs have been an immense boon for the community for two editions of this game. If WotC makes it as hard to find DM content as other indie games do, then we might see some shifts. However, if WotC keeps the spigot open in regards to DM content (like how Paizo does), then don't get your hopes up because it means there won't be much reason to leave D&D. What CitizenKeen said below. Anonymous Zebra fucked around with this message at 19:52 on Jan 11, 2023 |
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Jan 11, 2023 19:38
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Thanlis posted:I’m gonna predict right now that the majority of them will have learned zero lessons and almost nobody’s gonna use a Creative Commons license. I’m a pessimist, though. Oh god, they're rumored to be using the same lawyers who drafted the first OGL.
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Jan 11, 2023 19:43
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Saxophone posted:Also there’s a lot of games that have a way easier onboarding processes. I’ve had more than a few folks at the table get super overwhelmed at all the choices and abilities and spells and equipment and etc. I didn't mean just mechanical onboarding. I can buy D&D not just at any FLGS in the country, but at Target and Wal-Mart. There's no Wanderhome in Wal-Mart. I can find five players for D&D tomorrow, as long as I allow tabaxi candymancers and giff bazookadins. Good luck finding a group to meet you at your kitchen table tomorrow to play Masks. As a new GM, I can find a million YouTube videos about how to be a better GM or run a great session, and I can buy a hundred books of ideas and "things". There's no such ecosystem for Flying Circus. Easy is not just the chargen, it's the whole community engagement bit.
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Jan 11, 2023 19:49
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Now I'm curious, do Wal-Mart and Target sell any other RPGs?
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Jan 11, 2023 19:57
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Siivola posted:Now I'm curious, do Wal-Mart and Target sell any other RPGs? I've never seen TTRPGs in either but I've seen a few mall bookstores that carried 5E and Pathfinder and nothing else.
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Jan 11, 2023 19:59
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CitizenKeen posted:The best thing D&D 5th had going for it was that you could get a game if you're lazy. It was the default. loving that up is going to make a lot of people realize it's only a "meh" game, and if you have to go through the effort of making a choice, why would you choose a "meh" game. Because for a group activity, five people saying "meh" is better than four saying "yeah" and one saying "no way".
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Jan 11, 2023 20:01
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hyphz posted:Because for a group activity, five people saying "meh" is better than four saying "yeah" and one saying "no way". That was the point of my post? Also, if I email five players and four say "yeah" and one says "no way", then looks like I've got a party of four players!
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Jan 11, 2023 20:02
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Anonymous Zebra posted:Smaller indie game systems have always lacked this content on the DM side, which is fine but does create a barrier if you just want to quickly make something the night before you play. In fact, this very issue is cropping up now that I'm trying to run a game of Hunter: The Vigil. I've tried finding content from other GMs, even asking on the CoD discord server, only to discover that the community for that system will happily talk about lore, or themes, but walls off the crunch pretty hard. Considering the fact that the GM needs to stat out everything by hand, this definitely slows me down and makes it harder to break the inertia of starting to run the game. Yeah, this is a tough issue. Even in the spaces that I follow where RPG design is really buzzing these days, there's a really strong emphasis on modular GM tools that can kind of slot into any system or on more conceptual or narrative content that's intentionally system-agnostic. Even most modules being published in the OSR are sort of loosely compatible with B/X D&D or some other system, but are really mostly intended to be system-neutral. Some even just straight up provide zero mechanics and only give a narrative description of the abilities of the various monsters/etc. It works because the focus isn't on tactical mechanics-heavy combat and monsters are generally built explicitly to be easy to homebrew or reverse engineer, but once you even start to get to the level of crunch that WoD has it becomes a huge pain in the rear end.
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Jan 11, 2023 20:21
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Siivola posted:Now I'm curious, do Wal-Mart and Target sell any other RPGs? Daniel Fox’s stuff makes it into box stores sometimes because he’s working for a big conventional publisher. I don’t think he’s hit Target yet though.
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Jan 11, 2023 20:21
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I'm sorry, who?
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Jan 11, 2023 20:23
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:I've never seen TTRPGs in either but I've seen a few mall bookstores that carried 5E and Pathfinder and nothing else.
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Jan 11, 2023 20:25
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hyphz posted:Because for a group activity, five people saying "meh" is better than four saying "yeah" and one saying "no way". lol if you think it wouldn't be one saying "yeah", one saying "meh" and three saying "no way".
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Jan 11, 2023 20:27
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FMguru posted:Barnes & Noble in my area carry 5E and Pathfinder/Starfinder and occasionally have single copies of other RPGs (I remember seeing The Expanse RPG, Call of Cthulhu 7E Keeper's Core Book, and Zweihander in stock at various times over the past few years). Some third-party 5E stuff as well. Even in the late 90s as a kid I remember mall bookstores where I grew up like Waldenbooks or B. Dalton (RIP both I guess) carrying a surprisingly decent selection of RPG books. I definitely remember seeing Star Wars (d20 and the odd WEG supplement), Star Trek (both Last Unicorn and Decipher), and a bunch of 2e D&D. So anecdotally at least, RPGs being on shelves in mainstream bookstores is definitely not a new phenomenon.
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Jan 11, 2023 20:34
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hyphz posted:Because for a group activity, five people saying "meh" is better than four saying "yeah" and one saying "no way". If you're gonna ignore four players' enthusiasm just to get the fifth guy going 'okay, I guess' you are doing a grave disservice to all 5 players.
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Jan 11, 2023 20:38
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Goons talking about social dynamics 
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Jan 11, 2023 20:40
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Gao posted:Matt Colville specifically said he wants his game to shed all the things that are hanging around D&D just because "that's D&D," that he wants modern design, is absolutely not going to be 5e compatible, and that it's not even going to be d20 based. I'm not going to tell you whether the end result is going to be any good, but it seems like killing sacred cows and trying to be its own thing. At worst, I'd expect something more like a bad version of ICON than your standard wannabe D&D. And again if MCDM do pull it off hell yeah right in my veins.
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Jan 11, 2023 20:50
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Bookstores that sell star wars and star trek and battletech novels tend to also sell those RPGs, and the ones that don't have those books in the SF/Fantasy section are less likely to carry anything other than D&D (or any RPGs at all). I'm much more likely to see warhammer RPG stuff in a random bookstore than Fate or Traveler. Today sorta feels a bit to me like when TSR went under and Wizards picked them up in 1997. It felt like a sea change, a lot of people were terrified of what the Magic the Gathering people were going to "do to D&D", and there were lots of other systems to play that were becoming quite popular, especially world of darkness, which had tons of appeal to the goth subculture that arose in the 1980s and bloomed in the 1990s. As well as a recent proliferation of vampire movies and TV shows. Then Wizards put out a playable edition of D&D, supported it, revised it fairly quickly, and the OGL gave dozens of small press publishers permission to slap a D20 logo on their supplements and that helped them get them onto racks at game stores much more easily than before. I think the parallel I'm drawing is that the OGL1.1, if the leaked version is unrevised, may feed at least a short-term boost in sales to other game systems, especially ones that have strong cultural crossover. I don't know what that'd be exactly - maybe lord of the rings, which has been sustained with continuing movies and TV series, or maybe something anime-flavored, which is far more mainstream now than it was in 1997 america. Maybe it's a non-OGL-tainted Pathfinder, just because it feels like D&D, in a reprise of 2008's schism. I dunno. But my bet is that it's not system that sells whatever might step into the market share. I think large swathes of people are attracted to a game for its flavor and its setting. Actual Plays feed into that, they (wisely) tend to elide exposing mechanical complexity in favor of the drama and storytelling that comes from the setting and its flavor. I'm an Old so I'm not well connected to whatever the biggest or rising subcultures are among younger people these days, I'd be interested in some conversation around that. And I'd bet there's a good chance that D&D, in some form, would recover and reclaim the market inside 5 years or so. Nostalgia is incredibly powerful. It'd just have to be playable and supported with enough supplements to keep people engaged, whether those are third-party or first-party. Leperflesh fucked around with this message at 20:59 on Jan 11, 2023 |
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Jan 11, 2023 20:57
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Tsilkani posted:If you're gonna ignore four players' enthusiasm just to get the fifth guy going 'okay, I guess' you are doing a grave disservice to all 5 players. Not necessarily. Bear in mind that those four players' enthusiasm will potentially be dampened seriously by the fact that they know the fifth either isn't enjoying themselves or was pushed out of participating by their preference. In practice groups choose compromise much more often than turn-taking. And 5e may well have been designed to be the easiest compromise.
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Jan 11, 2023 20:58
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Leperflesh posted:I think large swathes of people are attracted to a game for its flavor and its setting. I think this is true, but I also think it's more complicated than it sounds. Like, people are into the flavor and setting of D&D, not Forgotten Realms. There is something about the vibe of D&D that resonates with people, but it's not at all tied to any specific D&D setting. I think it's a mix of half "generic fantasy" and half "natural 20s and the dumb poo poo that happens because of the tension between narrative and mechanics".
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Jan 11, 2023 21:03
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I've been playing Pathfinder 2e regularly for the last 2 years and it's exactly what I want out of an RPG so I'm just hoping whatever the OGL revision accomplishes it doesn't hurt Paizo badly. Also I agree with the people who are saying that D&D to TTRPGS is like Xerox to copier machines. My group always just refers to whatever we're playing as D&D even though we haven't played 5e in years.
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Jan 11, 2023 21:08
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OtspIII posted:I think this is true, but I also think it's more complicated than it sounds. I'd add one part ready-made world and character building blocks. It's so easy to make something that's D&D but also you. Offhand I can't really think of any other games that have that mix and match power, except maybe Star Wars.
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Jan 11, 2023 21:08
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