(Thread IKs:
ZShakespeare)
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Baronjutter posted:Sorry if I'm being a bit extra about this, but I have a lot of family and friends in Ukraine and this is like my trigger issue. Gosh, what a surprise. COPE 27 posted:I know it's easy to be self righteous over here while Ukrainians freeze and starve, but do you guys really think the Ukrainian army is gonna march through Moscow and impose an unconditional surrender After we send them the shiniest, newest guns we have, I think that maybe... they just might. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 12, 2023 01:35
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Tighclops posted:We should be sending medical supplies and food and poo poo and we should be accepting refugees if Canada is to be involved at all, not loving weapons for a bunch of fascists to beat each other over the heads with and get a bunch of other people killed in the process Did we stop accepting refugees?
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Jan 12, 2023 01:36
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Baronjutter posted:Sorry if I'm being a bit extra about this, but I have a lot of family and friends in Ukraine and this is like my trigger issue. I've been absolutely devastated with the war in Ukraine, totally emotionally destroyed and this topic is extremely close to me. It's probably best if I just put you on ignore because I can't not be like this when I see Putin's useful idiots out trying to explain away why countries need to stop sending military aid to ukraine. Obviously in this specific case with the AA system it's a Canpol issue, but getting into the justifications of genocide ends up being a very Ukraine-thread issue and can easily poo poo up the thread with endless debate and I imagine we'll get a mod in here telling us to move on from Ukraine soon. Sorry you are going through that. Righteously burning fields of straw men isn't gonna win people over, immediately defaulting to calling someone Putin's useful idiot rather than seeking to understand where they are coming from isn't either. This is supposed to be D&D not CSPAM, have some loving faith in your fellow posters.
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Jan 12, 2023 01:37
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COPE 27 posted:I know it's easy to be self righteous over here while Ukrainians freeze and starve, but do you guys really think the Ukrainian army is gonna march through Moscow and impose an unconditional surrender? Or will this war end in a negotiated settlement like almost every war does? By this argument should have China accepted a peace agreement with Japan on Japan's terms? Should have the USSR agreed to have cede Germany everything West of the Urals? Where do you draw the line before you agree that regardless of the uncertainty of the outcome, people have the right to self-determination and the right to resist an invasion to the bitter end? No one but Ukraine and its duly elected government by its people, for its people, can decide where to draw that line; the same as any people who were suddenly and deliberately attacked by the naval, air and land forces of an invading Empire. The West whether out of altruism or enlightened self-interest, it doesn't matter, providing arms ensures that whatever negotiated settlement comes to pass; whether it be because Putin was overthrown by his own people, ultimate victory or whatever else, is as likely to be under their best possible negotiating position, and not one forced on them because the facts on the ground made further resistance untenable. As Churchill once said, we merely need to keep supplying the tools and they'll finish the job. e: Bleck posted:Gosh, what a surprise. Are they not supposed to formulate opinions based on the fact people they know might be affected? Raenir Salazar fucked around with this message at 01:42 on Jan 12, 2023 |
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Jan 12, 2023 01:40
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COPE 27 posted:I know it's easy to be self righteous over here while Ukrainians freeze and starve, but do you guys really think the Ukrainian army is gonna march through Moscow and impose an unconditional surrender? Or will this war end in a negotiated settlement like almost every war does? A ceasefire is totally up to Putin. He can leave ukraine any time he wants. There's no greater argument or issues at play here that make peace difficult. It's not like Ukraine and Russia are also battling over a bunch of other issues that are on the table. All Ukraine wants is for Russia to leave, to stop trying to subjugate and re-colonize it. What negotiation is expected from the victim in a war like this? It's not like Ukraine is holding out for regime change or reparations, they simply want Russia to stop killing them. Russia wants total subjugation, or at least partial and a destroyed rump state they can deal with later. Ukraine simply wants to not be destroyed. What middle ground is there to negotiate? Also Russia has proven to not abide by any treaty or agreement. A ceasefire will only ever be a pause for Russia to reinforce for another invasion as soon as they're able, just like they did after they invaded Crimea. Russia doesn't want a ceasefire or peace though, they keep making insane demands that essentially amount to an unconditional surrender by ukraine and a return to defacto vassal status, when Ukraine doesn't want to entertain that Russia then releases propaganda about how Ukraine and the west refuse to discuss peace, and useful idiots gobble it up.
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Jan 12, 2023 01:41
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There'll be a negotiated settlement for sure but the less territory Russia controls when it happens could mean the difference between Ukraine having to accept Russia's dumb poo poo annexation of four provinces, including two they didn't even majority occupy (one of which contains a huge amount of their power generation capacity) and more something like "Okay fine we'll leave if everyone formally acknowledges we get Crimea and all the sanctions end and we don't have to pay for all the poo poo we exploded".
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Jan 12, 2023 01:45
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COPE 27 posted:I know it's easy to be self righteous over here while Ukrainians freeze and starve, but do you guys really think the Ukrainian army is gonna march through Moscow and impose an unconditional surrender? Or will this war end in a negotiated settlement like almost every war does? There will be a negotiated settlement, but Ukraine is going to fight until they reclaim as much of their territory as possible before negotiating. They'll do this for 2 key reasons: as mentioned no one expects Russia to negotiate in good faith, so they can only expect their legal borders to be respected by retaking physical control over said borders. Which leads directly to reason 2: with their legal territory no longer contested, Ukraine can apply to join the EU and NATO and expect at least some chance of getting in. As much help as NATO and the EU are providing, Ukraine can not become incorporated into these groups while in an active war with Russia. Any territory they compromise to give up in order to end the war and thus join these groups would be lost forever, and the legal and political effort to cede an inch of territory, which includes Crimea, would be immense. But joining NATO/EU is the only real security guarantee they can get, which is why it is at all plausible this may end with Ukraine ceding something. But they will do everything they can to restore their pre-2014 borders, and it is both their legal right and practical responsibility to do so.
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Jan 12, 2023 01:46
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Lead out in cuffs posted:Did we stop accepting refugees? Something that really loving pisses me off is that Canada is making a big big show about our open door for Ukrainian refugees. Look how noble we are, look at good guy canada welcoming refugees. But the amount of support we give them is practically nothing. I'm involved with local volunteers and most of the support comes from charity and volunteer networks. They're sending them here to Victoria, and the poor refugees are now dealing with Victoria's housing and rental prices. I'd love 400 million for some refugee housing, or just the federal government getting off its rear end and fulfilling its role funding affordable housing in this country. I'm of course not saying we should close to the door to the refugees, even Victoria's rental market is better than a russian execution squad. But the feds are clearly doing the absolute minimum to score domestic and international PR points bringing in refugees then doing gently caress all to support them. It's just putting an even bigger burden on our already broken local affordable housing network.
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Jan 12, 2023 01:47
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Yeah man that's all refugees
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Jan 12, 2023 01:51
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Bleck posted:
Legit asking, why is it easier to make that assumption? Arivia posted:What state is that? I missed the comparison somewhere. I'm not claiming Israel is the GOAT, but they're streets ahead of anybody else right now
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Jan 12, 2023 01:52
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apatheticman posted:Yeah man that's all refugees It's a bummer it's not one of those moments of reflection that we could all learn from that you hear about
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Jan 12, 2023 01:54
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Raenir Salazar posted:As Churchill once said, we merely need to keep supplying the tools and they'll finish the job. Actually, he said "Give us the tools, and we will finish the job," as the leader of a country engaged in active warfare. This is an important distinction, I feel, in the context of the self-righteous ethics of fighting a proxy war. Raenir Salazar posted:Are they not supposed to formulate opinions based on the fact people they know might be affected? I recently posted that the people who tend to get most upset about Ukraine eventually tend to turn out to give a poo poo because this time it's people they can actually empathize with, unlike those other (coloured/queer) folks. I'm not saying it's wrong. It's just not surprising when it turns out that the skeleton of the meaty self-righteousness on display is newfound fear that this can happen to anyone. Cool Kids Club Soda posted:Legit asking, why is it easier to make that assumption? I have potent pattern recognition skills. Baronjutter posted:What middle ground is there to negotiate? Passive military support and economic sanctions are, functionally speaking, negotiation. If you do not believe that it's possible for this war to end in a ceasefire, would you be willing to say that you believe Canada engaging in active warfare with Russia is inevitable?
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Jan 12, 2023 01:55
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Cool Kids Club Soda posted:It's a bummer it's not one of those moments of reflection that we could all learn from that you hear about Yeah we tried that with the Syrians but hey, maybe this time it will stick.
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Jan 12, 2023 01:58
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Mr Luxury Yacht posted:There'll be a negotiated settlement for sure but the less territory Russia controls when it happens could mean the difference In my opinion Ukraine probably has the strongest negotiating position they are likely to achieve, so this is the best time to push for a settlement IF our goal was supporting them and not waging a proxy war.
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Jan 12, 2023 01:58
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Baronjutter posted:Something that really loving pisses me off is that Canada is making a big big show about our open door for Ukrainian refugees. Look how noble we are, look at good guy canada welcoming refugees. But the amount of support we give them is practically nothing. I'm involved with local volunteers and most of the support comes from charity and volunteer networks. They're sending them here to Victoria, and the poor refugees are now dealing with Victoria's housing and rental prices. I'd love 400 million for some refugee housing, or just the federal government getting off its rear end and fulfilling its role funding affordable housing in this country. I've seen a lot of this; I volunteer at a local food bank in Ottawa. A lot of refugees are being put up in local hotels, because the government wanted to throw a bone to the hotel industry that were getting rocked by Covid. But a lot of those hotel rooms don't have any kitchens, so the only food that is useful to them is the kind that doesn't need cooking. So a Ukrainian couple come in with two kids, both parents have a little English. And we're trying to sort out what we can give them that will be fine to eat without cooking. Literally the best we can give them is cereal or cold prepared pasta. And yes, both a hotel room and cold chef Boyardi, or even the Ottawa real estate market, are kinder than kids being seized so they can be re-educated out of their own culture while the parents are killed; but the situation still sucks.
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Jan 12, 2023 02:02
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COPE 27 posted:I know it's easy to be self righteous over here while Ukrainians freeze and starve, but do you guys really think the Ukrainian army is gonna march through Moscow and impose an unconditional surrender? Or will this war end in a negotiated settlement like almost every war does? How many people have to die before Russia concedes that their invasion and occupation are total failures (leaving aside for a moment their various blatant war crimes). How are any of these deaths the fault of Ukraine and why is it their responsibility to give in to Russian agression? Particularly when giving in will simply lead to various mass killings and ethnic cleansing? To make myself clear on some earlier points, I think aiding Ukraine is the right thing to do. I also think Canada and other western nations should provide equal levels of support to any nation suffering the way Ukraine is. I think the world would be a better place if that were the case. I have no doubt that the level of support would be totally different if Ukraine was in Africa and not full of white people. I think that fact is loving tragic and a disgusting reflection of our overall society. I also don't think that fact should prevent us from actually doing something in a case where public sentiment and political will are actually there to act.
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Jan 12, 2023 02:09
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Lemony posted:How many people have to die before Russia concedes that their invasion and occupation are total failures A lot, and I'd rather not have the death toll go up that high
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Jan 12, 2023 02:11
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Bleck posted:
That can answer how it's easier for you, but not why. If there's blanks I'm supposed to be filling in you're gonna have to give me a hand
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Jan 12, 2023 02:14
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Whenever I hear the old argument about "why isn't Canada showing the same level of support for Unnamed Other Conflict," when pressed Unnamed Other Conflict tends to be difficult to nail down, because when you do you find fairly obvious reasons. The most common conflict I've heard people use an example is the war in Ethiopia that recently entered a ceasefire. Apart from the obvious answers of Ethiopia being distant from and not terribly relevant to Canada (as opposed to Europe generally and Ukraine specifically, with Toronto being the largest Ukranian city in the world outside Ukraine), the even more pertinent answer is that the Ethiopian conflict is a particularly nasty civil war, as opposed to a peaceful state being invaded, unprovoked, by a known belligerent state historically hostile to Canada and it's allies. Any other conflicts anyone wants to offer up?
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Jan 12, 2023 02:21
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Lemony posted:I also don't think that fact should prevent us from actually doing something in a case where public sentiment and political will are actually there to act. Most of the people who acknowledge the ethical inconsistencies in Canada's actions with regards to war and genocide are not doing so to undermine efforts to support Ukraine, but rather to do what we can to foster a general awareness of what we believe to be hypocrisy, often rooted in racism. It's necessary to acknowledge a disparity before it can be addressed, and there's not really a more appropriate place to do so than in the context of political discourse. Cool Kids Club Soda posted:That can answer how it's easier for you, but not why. If there's blanks I'm supposed to be filling in you're gonna have to give me a hand I'm not really interested in engaging with you, specifically, sorry. Last time I tried you just called me a tankie repeatedly.
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Jan 12, 2023 02:21
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Nilbop posted:Whenever I hear the old argument about "why isn't Canada showing the same level of support for Unnamed Other Conflict," when pressed Unnamed Other Conflict tends to be difficult to nail down, because when you do you find fairly obvious reasons. If I wanted to engage people in honest debate I would simply not put all those prequalifications on my question. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 12, 2023 02:32
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Nilbop posted:Ethiopia being distant from and not terribly relevant to Canada (as opposed to Europe generally and Ukraine specifically, with Toronto being the largest Ukranian city in the world outside Ukraine), Would you like to elaborate in what capacities you believe Ethiopia is less relevant to Canada than Ukraine?
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Jan 12, 2023 02:32
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Bleck posted:Would you like to elaborate in what capacities you believe Ethiopia is less relevant to Canada than Ukraine? Or better yet when did most of that Ukrainian community come to Canada and under what circumstances? I don't think it was like fleeing the Derg
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Jan 12, 2023 02:38
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Isentropy posted:Or better yet when did most of that Ukrainian community come to Canada and under what circumstances? Soviet oppression? The holodomor?
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Jan 12, 2023 02:39
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apatheticman posted:If I wanted to engage people in honest debate I would simply not put all those prequalifications on my question. What "prequalifications" do you see in "Any other conflicts?" Bleck posted:Would you like to elaborate in what capacities you believe Ethiopia is less relevant to Canada than Ukraine? Canada has a larger population of European heritage than Ethiopia by several magnitudes. It has closer ties to Europe, and longer ties, and more complex ties, involving immigration, trade, investment, military cooperation and just about every conceivable facet of international relations. Canada has a larger Ukrainian population, particularly here in Toronto, than just about anywhere else in the Western world. To be specific about the two conflicts; Ukraine is being invaded, as opposed to being embroiled in a bloody civil war. Ukraine is being invaded by a state historically hostile to Canada, it's interests, it's allies and their interests. Ukraine is being invaded by a state historically hostile to the above completely unprovoked. Nilbop fucked around with this message at 02:42 on Jan 12, 2023 |
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Jan 12, 2023 02:39
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Russia invading Ukraine is bad. The US funding nazi groups in Ukraine to antagonize Russia also bad. Prolonging the war by making sure the weaker side is more heavily armed so that more people die? who knows? All I know is that I care more about this war than all the other wars in the past 30 years because it's people who look like me getting killed.
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Jan 12, 2023 02:43
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Nilbop posted:What "prequalifications" do you see in "Any other conflicts?" The sentences before when you are clearly setting up your position beforehand.
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Jan 12, 2023 02:43
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The conflict in Ethiopia is also a multifaceted and complex civil war about national identity and what groups get to wield political power, and difficult for people who aren't from the region to truly understand. Ukraine, on the other hand, is extremely straightforward.
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Jan 12, 2023 02:44
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Raenir Salazar posted:Soviet oppression? The holodomor? Famously, Chrystia Freeland's grandfather fled political persecution* in Europe *It's better if you don't ask about the nature of the political persecution he fled
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Jan 12, 2023 02:44
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apatheticman posted:The sentences before when you are clearly setting up your position beforehand. You don't want to engage with me because I've laid out my position, have I got that right?
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Jan 12, 2023 02:45
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Nilbop posted:Canada has a larger population of European heritage than Ethiopia by several magnitudes. It has closer ties to Europe, and longer ties, and more complex ties, involving immigration, trade, investment, military cooperation and just about every conceivable facet of international relations. Canada has a larger Ukrainian population, particularly here in Toronto, than just about anywhere else in the Western world. Do you believe that there are not populations of Canadians from other places experiencing war and genocide? Do you believe our aid to those countries should be commensurate with the size of those populations? If yes, do you believe they currently are? If not, why? Nilbop posted:Ukraine is being invaded, as opposed to being embroiled in a bloody civil war. Do you believe that the recognized state lines of the people who are subjecting others to genocide is of immediate importance to those being genocided? Nilbop posted:Ukraine is being invaded by a state historically hostile to Canada, it's interests, it's allies and their interests. If Russia was not already hostile to Canada, do you believe that their genocide of Ukrainian people would be justified? Nilbop posted:Ukraine is being invaded by a state historically hostile to the above completely unprovoked. "Provocation" is meaningless in this context.
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Jan 12, 2023 02:46
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COPE 27 posted:In my opinion Ukraine probably has the strongest negotiating position they are likely to achieve, so this is the best time to push for a settlement IF our goal was supporting them and not waging a proxy war. But what if, stay with me here, a handful of billionaires could make a lot of money selling them more weapons?
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Jan 12, 2023 02:47
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Bleck posted:Do you believe that there are not populations of Canadians from other places experiencing war and genocide? Do you believe our aid to those countries should be commensurate with the size of those populations? If yes, do you believe they currently are? If not, why? List out some conflicts for us to engage in. quote:Do you believe that the recognized state lines of the people who are subjecting others to genocide is of immediate importance to those being genocided? What genocide are you referring to? quote:If Russia was not already hostile to Canada, do you believe that their genocide of Ukrainian people would be justified? What on Earth is this question? Did you wander in from Reddit? quote:"Provocation" is meaningless in this context. I'm starting to see why you complained of other people calling you a tankie. No, things like "who started the war" are important. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 12, 2023 02:50
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Nilbop posted:What "prequalifications" do you see in "Any other conflicts?" African people have been in Canada, not as citizens, for hundreds of years before the Doukhouburs arrived in the late 19th century. And the question of who is European takes you down a road you really should turn left from. Question: were Portuguese and Spanish and Italian people European for the vast majority of this country's history? Or even Irish Catholics? Let's chat with the people of North Preston who can't secure running water or electricity about who's really a part of "Canadian culture" before we make broad sweeping statements like this that sound... Off.
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Jan 12, 2023 02:50
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Nilbop posted:You don't want to engage with me because I've laid out my position, have I got that right? Yes, its an already written monologue acting as an improv bit with too much set up.
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Jan 12, 2023 02:52
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Nilbop posted:post You are avoiding answering any of the questions I asked in the post that you responded to.
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Jan 12, 2023 02:53
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If Bleck is a Tankie, then Nillbop is a State Department plant. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 12, 2023 02:54
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ZShakespeare posted:But what if, stay with me here, a handful of billionaires could make a lot of money selling them more weapons? OK as long as it's just billionaires and not oligarchs
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Jan 12, 2023 02:54
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COPE 27 posted:OK as long as it's just billionaires and not oligarchs Our billionaires are the biggest best boys with gleaming muscles.
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Jan 12, 2023 02:55
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Isentropy posted:African people have been in Canada, not as citizens, for hundreds of years before the Doukhouburs arrived in the late 19th century. The presence of people of African heritage is not in question. The depth of that presence relevant to the country, and the ties that country resulting bound with the specific African nation, are. quote:And the question of who is European takes you down a road you really should turn left from. Question: were Portuguese and Spanish and Italian people European for the vast majority of this country's history? Or even Irish Catholics? Speaking not only as an Irish Catholic but as an Irish Catholic immigrant, yes, we all were. We weren't treated the same as WASPs, nor were Ukranians, and we faced prejudice due to the WASP majority. This does not make them not European, neither historically nor contemporaneously, nor does it remove Canada's interest in or ties with Europe. quote:Let's chat with the people of North Preston who can't secure running water or electricity about who's really a part of "Canadian culture" before we make broad sweeping statements like this that sound... Off. You're now 6 degrees beyond the war in Ukraine.
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Jan 12, 2023 02:56
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