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ImplicitAssembler posted:Halfway through the season and they're 10 points out of a wildcard. Surely, now, if anything, is the time to throw in the towel, trade Horvat, Kuzmenko, Boeser, Garland, somehow attach Myers and maybe even Miller to one of the deals and *tank* hard. With a decent effort, they should be able get 4th spot. Have you considered that this was all a stretch of rotten luck and they resign Horvat and Kuzmenko and tack on a 1st to dump Myers contract then run it back next year? Because that's what's gonna happen.
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Jan 12, 2023 20:31
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https://e.givesmart.com/events/uwf/ The Panthers actually put the Vamos Gatos logos on some shirts, holy poo poo I was not at all expecting that, just for them to sell the warmup-worn jerseys
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Jan 12, 2023 20:51
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Simplex posted:From what I've seen of him he's stuck in kind of a weird limbo. He's clearly too good for the AHL, but his NHL development keeps getting set back by COVID, or injuries, or just other random bad luck. He's only played a handful of games in the AHL. He has good numbers this year but it's 16 drat games. Let him play there for awhile instead of forcing him into the NHL. He was also drafted as a high upside project, but we are used to the idea that top 5 picks should step in right away and dominate Speaking of disappointing top picks, Laf is getting a shot with Zibanejad and Kakko with Kreider out (and is taking Kreider's spot on the power play). Might be the shot in the arm he needs...honestly he has just looked down and tentative with his game since early in the season when he was bumped from Panarin's line for no real fault of his own. The times when he's looked most engaged and progressing has been when he has gotten some minutes with top players. The "kid line" is a demotion no matter what people say about it and it's clear that regardless of 5v5 icetime usage Laf and Kakko really haven't played with the same energy and assertiveness when bumped from the real top 2 lines.
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Jan 12, 2023 21:02
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ThinkTank posted:Have you considered that this was all a stretch of rotten luck and they resign Horvat and Kuzmenko and tack on a 1st to dump Myers contract then run it back next year? Because that's what's gonna happen. I know we Canucks fans have collective trauma from the Benning years, but why so quick to dump the actual quality producing players rather than the crap inherited from Benning? Kuzmenko was literally a pristine, shiny new boat that fell into the Canucks laps, and you want to trade it away for a mystery box in the hopes it might have a new boat in it? OEL's contract is very buyout friendly, who cares about a $2 million dollar cap hit in 2031? Myers is owed a $5 million bonus on July 1st and then his actual salary drops to one million; retain 50% of his salary cap and now a $3 million cap hit for one year (only $1 million in real money) RHD with size and experience and he suddenly becomes very moveable. Retain $1.5-$2 million of Boeser's cap hit and he probably becomes moveable as well.
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Jan 12, 2023 21:41
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https://twitter.com/br_openice/status/1613623984469250065?s=46&t=ej_x6NARZUvQLDvXYoXP8w Torts going full junior high teacher in Philly
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Jan 12, 2023 21:57
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SoggyBobcat posted:I know we Canucks fans have collective trauma from the Benning years, but why so quick to dump the actual quality producing players rather than the crap inherited from Benning? Kuzmenko was literally a pristine, shiny new boat that fell into the Canucks laps, and you want to trade it away for a mystery box in the hopes it might have a new boat in it? Kuzmenko is going to cost at least $6m/year to resign and his agent is keen on trying the open market. I like him as a player and he's worth that amount of money, but he's not what the Canucks need right now. (They need a flotilla of D-men who can actually defend)
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Jan 12, 2023 22:11
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SoggyBobcat posted:I know we Canucks fans have collective trauma from the Benning years, but why so quick to dump the actual quality producing players rather than the crap inherited from Benning? Kuzmenko was literally a pristine, shiny new boat that fell into the Canucks laps, and you want to trade it away for a mystery box in the hopes it might have a new boat in it? Kuzmenko I'd be okay with resigning from that list on a 3-4 year deal but I think otherwise you're greatly overvaluing the Canucks assets. As with most teams, they have no cap space and are significantly chewing into LTIR which means all bonuses go to next year which means you can strike another $2-3m off their cap next season. They also have Pettersson to resign after next season and given his previous noncommittal commits about his future I think his salary starts with an $11 if he doesn't outright ask out. Yes, there are maybe ways to move off one or two of their bad contracts but 1) why would any team take them on without a sizeable asset coming their way as a sweetener? and 2) why would the teams that can afford to take them on prioritize them over any other team in the league? It took a 2nd round pick for the Canucks to clear just over $1m of salary for 2 years in Jason Dickenson and they had to take back Riley Stillman as part of it. The cap is staying level and teams didn't expect that and haven't accounted for it. There are maybe 4 or 5 teams next year that will have available space to take on bad contracts and their services will be in high demand. It will be a 1st round pick + (probably in the 2023 draft) to clear only a few million dollars off the books. The Canucks have neither the assets nor expectation of future success to outbid the 15-20 teams that will need to unload a bad contract. Even if everything goes perfectly and they offload Myers for a relatively low price, they buy out OEL and find takers for Boeser and Garland they maybe clear out $12-14m next year while tacking long term dead cap commitments of $5m+ a year in buyouts and retention. If the idea is a quick strip down of the roster to try and refocus on competing before Hughes, Demko and Pettersson age out they've once again saddled (hopefully) better teams in the future with the cap problems of worse ones today. The sad reality is they're stuck with this team. They've committed big money long term to a lot of guys who can't feasibly be removed without paying the price down the line for a very long time. They need to figure out a way to make what they have work. It's a hard truth, but there no Connor Bedard coming to save them. They need to stop squandering assets and just grin and bear the next 3 or so seasons of darkness and hope for the best. Contracts will begin to expire and they can hopefully convince enough worthwhile guys to stay. Maybe OEL and Miller will get so fed up they retire to be bakers or something. It won't be easy. It'll require real soul searching and honesty from the top down, and forgive me if I am skeptical of that taking place given all the magic beans we've been sold over the years. They are in probably the least enviable position in the league and I don't see a way to navigate out of it. They're pretty much stuck with what they have while their best players lose interest and/or age out. Lazy, idiot pleasing choices to avoid facing having to say "maybe the playoffs aren't the goal this year" were the decisions they made over and over in the past decade. When you constantly draw from the future to paper over the problems of the present, you eventually get stuck with the bill. That's what you see today and sadly will for years to come.
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Jan 12, 2023 22:21
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The Dirty Burger posted:https://twitter.com/br_openice/status/1613623984469250065?s=46&t=ej_x6NARZUvQLDvXYoXP8w https://twitter.com/CobrastanGuy/status/1613624711539265558
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Jan 12, 2023 22:31
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Torts really was the perfect hire for the Flyers.
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Jan 12, 2023 22:32
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ThinkTank, I don't necessarily disagree with anything you said, but the solution to thisquote:and forgive me if I am skeptical of that taking place given all the magic beans we've been sold over the years. is to stop taking on even more magic beans. Like, who do you think the Ottawa Senators would rather have now: Matt Duchene, or the magic beans they received in exchange for Matt Duchene in 2019? This is the barrel the Canucks are staring down if they trade Horvat. If the Canucks are aggressive in actually moving out the crap and the redundant pieces, there's no reason a core of Pettersson/Miller/Horvat/Kuzmenko/Hughes/Demko couldn't have, say, a run similar to the Predators from 2014 to now, a consistent playoff team that could go deep if they get some luck on injuries or favourable matchups. And as a fan whose interest is really beginning to wane, I'd much rather prefer this than yet another Benning-esque lost decade.
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Jan 12, 2023 22:43
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Every team's fans with a hosed up cap say the same thing: We just gotta trade away the bad contracts and keep the good ones, as though terrible contracts get traded or bought out all the time with no ramifications. The reality is that you have to eat a lot of poo poo to get rid of those deals with very little benefit unless your team is a contender that only needs to make one or two more moves.
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Jan 12, 2023 22:53
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The canucks have no fewer than 6 bad to terrible contracts that need to be shed. You can't just dig out from that without getting yourself into a different type of hole.
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Jan 12, 2023 22:57
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SoggyBobcat posted:ThinkTank, I don't necessarily disagree with anything you said, but the solution to this The Sens got two first round picks for Duchene and don't have to pay him $8mx8. Cap space is as or more valuable than a declining asset on a rebuilding team. Horvat is 28 in a few weeks. Don't make me tap the chart. SoggyBobcat posted:. Basically that exact core has a record of 80-79-17 over the past three seasons. Tell me what is about to change to make them suddenly a consistent playoff threat? Are you willing to bet say 2 first round picks, Podkolzin, Lekkerimaki and a couple seconds on them being that? Because that's what it'll cost to be "aggressive in moving out the crap." The thing about crap is that everyone has it and no one wants it. If you want someone to shovel it for ya, you gotta pay.
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Jan 12, 2023 22:58
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The Dirty Burger posted:https://twitter.com/br_openice/status/1613623984469250065?s=46&t=ej_x6NARZUvQLDvXYoXP8w I assume these iPads are used for fast review of their play in order to learn and improve? They're not like playing angry birds on the bench right?
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Jan 12, 2023 22:59
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Darude - Adam Sandstorm posted:Every team's fans with a hosed up cap say the same thing: We just gotta trade away the bad contracts and keep the good ones, as though terrible contracts get traded or bought out all the time with no ramifications. The reality is that you have to eat a lot of poo poo to get rid of those deals with very little benefit unless your team is a contender that only needs to make one or two more moves. Pretty much this. There are 31 other teams in the league who all want to clear cap space. Those willing to take it on can be choosy and charge high prices. Brent Burns and Max Pacioretty, guys who are infinitely better than any of the bad contracts the Canucks have, were moved for effectively no return just to get their contracts off the books. It cost the Oilers a 1st, a 2nd and a 3rd to dump Kassian's $3m salary. I would imagine say $5mx4 for Garland would cost two 1sts or more. Myers at least a 1st and a 2nd. OEL, I don't think any team will take that on. We are stuck with these guys.
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Jan 12, 2023 23:04
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SoggyBobcat posted:ThinkTank, I don't necessarily disagree with anything you said, but the solution to this I really don't see how that's feasible at all, but it's probably was the management is thinking. Just how are they going to move out the crap, when they have virtually nothing to offer in return? It still doesn't solve the complete lack of D-men. They have zero cap space right now and $15mil signed to 2 bollards. (Myers, OEL) They're going to have to do at least a partial blow-up, use their assets to A: either get rid of the trash or get some functioning D-men in.
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Jan 12, 2023 23:09
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If the Canucks had to eat poo poo to move one or two bad contracts to sign a couple guys and get them to contender status it might be worth it but you have to dump in no particular order: OEL, Myers, Poolman, Garland, Pearson and Boeser and lol good luck. Even if you move two you're still cap hosed by bad players, you're not fixing anything.
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Jan 12, 2023 23:10
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DancingMachine posted:I assume these iPads are used for fast review of their play in order to learn and improve? They're not like playing angry birds on the bench right? Yeah, theoretically part of their use is an assistant coach showing it to the player and going "hey, see what happened there? Don't do that again/Keep doing it/Try this next time".
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Jan 12, 2023 23:10
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Jan 12, 2023 23:15
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quote:The Sens got two first round picks for Duchene and don't have to pay him $8mx8. Cap space is as or more valuable than a declining asset on a rebuilding team. Horvat is 28 in a few weeks. Don't make me tap the chart. Horvat's obviously not going to at a 60-goal pace every season, but he's obviously turned a corner and expecting him to score 35-45 goals for the net 3-4 seasons is not unreasonable. The value of that (not to mention the massive hole in the roster that's not easily replaced) is almost certainly going to exceed whatever crap futures package the Canucks will take in return for him, none of whom are likely to get close to where Horvat is now. quote:Basically that exact core has a record of 80-79-17 over the past three seasons. Tell me what is about to change to make them suddenly a consistent playoff threat? Are you willing to bet say 2 first round picks, Podkolzin, Lekkerimaki and a couple seconds on them being that? Because that's what it'll cost to be "aggressive in moving out the crap." The thing about crap is that everyone has it and no one wants it. If you want someone to shovel it for ya, you gotta pay. Honestly? Lekkerimaki has not impressed and it might be wise to trade him now while his value remains high. Similarly, Rathbone isn't going to play significant minutes for this team while Hughes remains, and it would be best for both player and team to move him before his value drops even further. And honestly, I think picks not in the top 10 or 15 are extremely overvalued. And honestly, no I don't think my proposals for trading Boeser or Myers, or buying out OEL are that unreasonable at all. OEL's contract is very buyout friendly, Myers at 50% retained for one year can still be a useful player for someone, and Boeser retained down to ~$5mil is more in line with his actual value.
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Jan 12, 2023 23:19
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Trading Duchene was good and I prefer the beans.
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Jan 12, 2023 23:26
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Misanthrope posted:My least favorite teams all happened before the salary cap... The Flames Young Guns and their $20 million payrolls vs Dallas/Detroit in the late 90s, practically AHL talent (and Jarome Iginla) vs $80 million payrolls. first line forward Oleg Saprykin
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Jan 12, 2023 23:29
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SoggyBobcat posted:Horvat's obviously not going to at a 60-goal pace every season, but he's obviously turned a corner and expecting him to score 35-45 goals for the net 3-4 seasons is not unreasonable. The value of that (not to mention the massive hole in the roster that's not easily replaced) is almost certainly going to exceed whatever crap futures package the Canucks will take in return for him, none of whom are likely to get close to where Horvat is now. You still need to sign 10!!! players after those moves and will have 25 million or so to do so. Kuzmenko eats up 6+. If you pay Horvat, that's another 7.5 So you now have 11.5 million to pay 8 players. How did those trades and buyouts help?
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Jan 12, 2023 23:30
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mennoknight posted:first line forward Oleg Saprykin I fuckin love Oleg https://youtu.be/umg3RdT6lAM
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Jan 12, 2023 23:31
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SoggyBobcat posted:Horvat's obviously not going to at a 60-goal pace every season, but he's obviously turned a corner and expecting him to score 35-45 goals for the net 3-4 seasons is not unreasonable. The value of that (not to mention the massive hole in the roster that's not easily replaced) is almost certainly going to exceed whatever crap futures package the Canucks will take in return for him, none of whom are likely to get close to where Horvat is now.. Sure the prospects and/or picks aren't likely to turn into another Horvat, but the team's issue isn't scoring. It's defence and team defence. They can take a step back on goalscoring and reallocate the cap space to defence. The picks aren't likely to be "on pace for 60 goals in a contract year" Bo Horvat quality players, but the odds are they at least become worthwhile contributors. Young cost controlled depth is what this team needs. Not more guys exiting their prime signed to huge deals based on outlier seasons. This was all the same arguments people were making about not trading Miller last year while the same folks are calling for him to be bought out now. As for Duchene, he got a couple picks at the deadline and the Sens haven't been immediately good. Fine sure. However, you're forgetting that the exact same guy was traded to Ottawa for a 1st round pick that became Bowen Byram and the Avs quickly became a powerhouse cup winner. Not every trade or prospect works out, but drat some do and at some point people need to accept that this corrupted core just doesn't have what it takes to be anything. Pettersson, Hughes, Miller, Demko, and Boeser are all in their statistical primes right now. They aren't going to find another level. This is what they are and they're 26th in the league. Time to tear off the bandaid and start again. You didn't like the decade of nothing under Benning? You are advocating for exactly the road map he followed that whole time just replace Sven Baertschi with Brock Boeser and Luca Sbisa with Riley Stillman.
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Jan 12, 2023 23:40
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Darude - Adam Sandstorm posted:If the Canucks had to eat poo poo to move one or two bad contracts to sign a couple guys and get them to contender status it might be worth it but you have to dump in no particular order: Myers and OEL can be bought out to a cap hit of a little less than $3 million combined this offseason and Larsson only gets cheaper the longer they can hold off on it. I'd imagine that's the path they'd have to go for him with that contract. Myers might actually get a taker either way that'd give them $25 million (before the cap goes up) to sign Horvat and fill out the roster
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Jan 12, 2023 23:46
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There was 0 chance whatsoever that the Sens were re-signing Duchene
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Jan 13, 2023 00:27
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Remember Denis Gurianov?
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Jan 13, 2023 00:37
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https://twitter.com/TSN_Sports/status/1613691172769378304 Subban tribute night is already the best habs game of the last 2 seasons 
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Jan 13, 2023 01:19
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fawning deference posted:Remember Denis Gurianov? With a tear in my eye. The last truly off the board early(ish) pick.
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Jan 13, 2023 01:31
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Darude - Adam Sandstorm posted:I'm not sure i can remember watching a team as bad as the Ducks holy hell they're awful. speaking of this, how the hell is troy terry the asg rep? i mean no one deserves to go but you'd think the guy on the cover of the video game would be the dude they chose
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Jan 13, 2023 02:06
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clean ayers act posted:speaking of this, how the hell is troy terry the asg rep? I assume Zegras will get in no matter what due to the fan vote thing. Younger fans love that guy.
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Jan 13, 2023 02:15
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Spelling Mitsake posted:https://twitter.com/TSN_Sports/status/1613691172769378304 therrien is fuming
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Jan 13, 2023 02:18
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clean ayers act posted:speaking of this, how the hell is troy terry the asg rep? Maybe he didn’t want to go. Lot of players don’t want to and can’t blame them.
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Jan 13, 2023 02:18
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Jamwad Hilder posted:I assume Zegras will get in no matter what due to the fan vote thing. Younger fans love that guy. Maybe it's to get young people to vote (and to mine their data)?
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Jan 13, 2023 02:23
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Duckman2008 posted:Maybe he didn’t want to go. Lot of players don’t want to and can’t blame them. They're not allowed to not want to go.
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Jan 13, 2023 02:35
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Duckman2008 posted:Maybe he didn’t want to go. Lot of players don’t want to and can’t blame them. i assume almost no players want to go but i feel like if youve been in the league 3 years you dont have a ton of clout to say no
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Jan 13, 2023 02:35
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Spelling Mitsake posted:https://twitter.com/TSN_Sports/status/1613691172769378304 I really wish they threw a 1 year offer to PK. I guess he wouldn’t have been any better than the rookies but it woulda been cool.
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Jan 13, 2023 02:41
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I’d be really skeptical of trading for anyone on Vancouver and expected in them to produce the same offensively on a team that has any level of defensive responsibility. They are currently being soundly beaten by Tampa, but I think they came into the game with the same goals for (43 goals difference on GA…). Kuzmenko got a heap of points on tap ins, part of that is he clearly knows how to get in the right spot for great players to get them great scoring shots, but part of that is being a unknown quantity, he’s already getting less of those unguarded chances. Add in to that a 25% shooting percent and I think he’s a good candidate for regression. He’s still a good player (also fun and has personality which is rare), but is he a 6 million dollar player? Not sure.
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Jan 13, 2023 02:59
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Good Soldier Svejk posted:Myers and OEL can be bought out to a cap hit of a little less than $3 million combined this offseason and Larsson only gets cheaper the longer they can hold off on it. The cap is climbing 1 million next year. Kuzmenko+Horvat would cost 13-15 million so there's 10-13? Left to sign 8 guys. And Bear probably takes 2.5 of that. It doesn't help and just pushes those contract hits further out and for what?
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Jan 13, 2023 03:22
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