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mellonbread posted:If the robot can actually parse natural language from human players and change its strategy accordingly, that's much more impressive than just winning the game. Given sufficient processing power a machine can calculate how to get from one position to another position deterministically. It's a lot harder to make a machine that understands what other people are saying and changes its behavior accordingly. Or it may be that the optimal strategy is to ignore anything anyone else says and just respond to observed behavior, because everything they say is trying to trick you. I need actually read the paper to know how this went, obviously, but I’ve done a lot of work in natural language processing and they seem to be mostly skipping over this in the reporting. Which is more than a bit like handwaving away needing a perpetual motion machine to make your swanky new machine work. Most natural language processors can’t work on natural language at all and still need a lot of hand-holding. The bleeding edge stuff still shits the bed if you give it moderately complex sentences, and something like “the horse raced by the barn fell” might as well be radioactive.
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Jan 13, 2023 00:26
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:the ideal traitor game group is gaming buddies who know what kind of personality you are and will play repeat games long enough to build up a history, but aren't necessarily real-life friends Fellow goons?
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Jan 13, 2023 00:32
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i feel like I'm playing them wrong or something, because i've never had the implosive friendship-ending effects that people love to talk about when it comes to games like Diplomacy, Resistance, or even dumb poo poo like Mario Party. you simply accept that putting on your best poker face and spinning lies is the rules of the game, it'd be like getting pissed that your friend put you in Check
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Jan 13, 2023 01:27
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Plutonis posted:Fellow goons? I used to play it with EVE Online players, who are all united by their enjoyment of video game sociopathy anyways.
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Jan 13, 2023 01:29
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Countblanc posted:i feel like I'm playing them wrong or something, because i've never had the implosive friendship-ending effects that people love to talk about when it comes to games like Diplomacy, Resistance, or even dumb poo poo like Mario Party. you simply accept that putting on your best poker face and spinning lies is the rules of the game, it'd be like getting pissed that your friend put you in Check A lot of people aren't prepared to discover that their close friends are really good at lying to them. ..or that their close friends can easily tell when they're lying... ...but another problem is that you lose this game, almost always, by being ganged-up-on. I think there's a difference between regular kingmaking in (poorly designed) boardgames, though. You can be honestly trying to form an alliance that will clearly benefit both you and another player, and then they instead stab you along with some third player. That sucks because the betrayal was one-way, and didn't even wind up helping the person who stabbed you. Just, great, now we're both hosed, and it's their fault. You can get bad feelings from poo poo like that! A big part of the game is trying to convince someone that what's in their best interests is actually in their best interests, and when they just don't believe you, even though you were telling the truth, that's both frustrating and suggests that they just think you're a liar. Diplomacy's rep is well earned. I'm sure there are people who can go in very open-eyed, set and maintain emotional boundaries, and play lots of times without drama or fallout. But I'd guess that the great majority of people who have played Diplomacy once, have only played Diplomacy once.
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Jan 13, 2023 01:34
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Leperflesh posted:The possibility of finishing a game without stabbing an ally is IMO important to the game because it otherwise is transparent that any negotiated NAP, alliance, or peace is eventually going to be destroyed.
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Jan 13, 2023 01:40
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Leperflesh posted:A lot of people aren't prepared to discover that their close friends are really good at lying to them.
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Jan 13, 2023 01:42
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yeah to be clear I don't particularly like Diplomacy but that's because I don't think it has enough mechanical grit and I'd rather play Resistance or SidCon. the lying isn't really a problem for me.
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Jan 13, 2023 01:43
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My favourite ever game of diplomacy was when I and a friend of mine formed an impenetrable wall across half of europe and just refused to budge. We couldn't advance but the other players couldn't break us. Another friend playing just couldn't quite understand that betraying each other for a shot at an "actual" win was infinitely less fun than watching him go completely spare over us individually responding to his overtures with "Yeah sure that sounds good I'll definitely do that" *submits exactly the same impenetrable bulwark order for the fourth round in a row*
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Jan 13, 2023 01:48
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Diplomacy has this ugly scenario where a third player convinces your neighbor to attack you, and then stabs them in the back. You and your neighbor both lose. You tried to convince your neighbor that they should have a NAP with you if not an outright alliance, but they found the third player more convincing. The social friction is your friend went with your other friend against you, and got taken advantage of, and it was incumbent on you during the game to point that out repeatedly, so when the game's over, they know it. "You didn't listen to me, and you should have. We both lost and it's your fault." Another factor is that this game takes a long rear end time to play. It's harder to shrug off a loss when you played 9 hours vs. a game that took 90 minutes. And I think everyone absolutely feels a need to discuss and analyze the game after, too, everyone wants to know why you did that one stab, or what the hell jacob said to susan in the back room right before turn 4, etc. All the poo poo comes out into the open.
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Jan 13, 2023 02:42
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There’s an excellent video of a good human playing against six instances of the AI: https://youtu.be/u5192bvUS7k Even just reading the transcript will give a good idea of what negotiation looks like and so on.
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Jan 13, 2023 03:07
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I believe that the AI didn’t have any conversations, just modelled out the moves and won on that basis (which involves understanding the strategic significance of France having a fleet in the English Channel, etc.). I can’t find where I read that, though. E: well apparently that is wrong!
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Jan 13, 2023 03:09
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My favourite Werewolf-style game is Are You The Traitor? because when I played it with my group we were supremely bad at it. Everyone would just sit there waiting for someone else to say something, and about five seconds into the round someone would accuse someone else of being the traitor based on some incredibly-minor-yet-somehow-suspicious facial movement. One time someone (wrongly) accused me of being the traitor because I got bored and smiled thinking of a post I saw earlier
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Jan 13, 2023 03:28
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Ettin posted:My favourite Werewolf-style game is Are You The Traitor? because when I played it with my group we were supremely bad at it. Everyone would just sit there waiting for someone else to say something, and about five seconds into the round someone would accuse someone else of being the traitor based on some incredibly-minor-yet-somehow-suspicious facial movement. One time someone (wrongly) accused me of being the traitor because I got bored and smiled thinking of a post I saw earlier This is a core Mafia/Werewolf experience. All it needs is someone yelling SCUMSLIP! as you very faintly smile
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Jan 13, 2023 03:47
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I ran a bunch of diplomacy games by email in TG… god, 16 or 17 years ago? It was really easy and fun at the time and I can’t imagine the tools have really gotten worse since then so I recommend posting a thread and going for it.
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Jan 13, 2023 04:14
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Ettin posted:My favourite Werewolf-style game is Are You The Traitor? because when I played it with my group we were supremely bad at it. Everyone would just sit there waiting for someone else to say something, and about five seconds into the round someone would accuse someone else of being the traitor based on some incredibly-minor-yet-somehow-suspicious facial movement. One time someone (wrongly) accused me of being the traitor because I got bored and smiled thinking of a post I saw earlier
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Jan 13, 2023 04:26
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long-rear end nips Diane posted:I ran a bunch of diplomacy games by email in TG… god, 16 or 17 years ago? It was really easy and fun at the time and I can’t imagine the tools have really gotten worse since then so I recommend posting a thread and going for it. There have been a few really entertaining ones (from a spectator's point of view) over the years. My favorite memory was a first time player asking for a rules clarification in the thread: "If I agree to convoy someone's army, do I have to take them to the place I said I would?"
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Jan 13, 2023 05:14
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I played in a Diplomacy game on the forums quite a long time ago, run by TheSaurus. There was drama and it was killed before it completed. And of course, TheSaurus turned out to be crazy, and... yeah that all went to a very dark place a few years later. But! It was an enlightening experience. Playing with a very vocal audience is a Whole Thing, because the peanut gallery will happily inform everyone of every non-obvious possible move other players might make, decide for themselves who is winning and call the other players morons if they don't instantly react to that, etc. Thanlis posted:There’s an excellent video of a good human playing against six instances of the AI: https://youtu.be/u5192bvUS7k Yeah looks like the AI can just about handle sounding "natural" when doing very diplomacy-related conversations, but still does make some very bot-like errors.
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Jan 13, 2023 05:44
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Ettin posted:My favourite Werewolf-style game Secret Hitler is an excellent "Werewolf Style" game. My kids are banned from playing it.
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Jan 13, 2023 16:32
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Secret Hitler is itself a fascist game! It's about uncovering a reptilian conspiracy to take over society!
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Jan 13, 2023 19:57
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it is kind of funny how every The Resistance clone immediately flips the moral signifiers even Avalon, which is probably my favorite variant in spite of that
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Jan 13, 2023 20:02
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If you play Quest using the Director's Cut (which one should) teams are either even or with evil out numbering good.
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Jan 13, 2023 20:20
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Cessna posted:Secret Hitler is an excellent "Werewolf Style" game. My kids are banned from playing it. The easy reskin here is "Secret Squirrel", where you're mostly all baddies trying to build a chaos machine out of a bunch of random parts that largely don't work, except for that rascally Secret Squirrel, who will win if you pick enough bad machine parts or if he gets elected chief henchman after the freeze rays are unlocked (three bad machine parts). Executions are freeze rays, if it wasn't obvious - spending the rest of the game in a goofy pose is optional.
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Jan 13, 2023 20:37
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Games where you easily lose if being ganged up on sucks, but games where it's theoretically possible to take down a good player, but not neccesarily easy are the absolute best.
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Jan 13, 2023 21:12
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Glazius posted:The easy reskin here is "Secret Squirrel", where you're mostly all baddies trying to build a chaos machine out of a bunch of random parts that largely don't work, except for that rascally Secret Squirrel, who will win if you pick enough bad machine parts or if he gets elected chief henchman after the freeze rays are unlocked (three bad machine parts). Executions are freeze rays, if it wasn't obvious - spending the rest of the game in a goofy pose is optional. Is it though. Like, morally.
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Jan 13, 2023 22:51
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 Mail call!
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Jan 13, 2023 23:32
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How is it?
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Jan 14, 2023 01:33
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Fuzz posted:
I got mine yesterday. Literally running my Korra era game at the moment.
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Jan 14, 2023 02:15
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Fuzz posted:
I was excited for that for approximately 20 seconds until I saw it was PBTA.
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Jan 14, 2023 03:15
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Epi Lepi posted:I was excited for that for approximately 20 seconds until I saw it was PBTA. 
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Jan 14, 2023 03:24
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Literally PBTA or PBTA derived/inspired but dramatically changed? Like Ironsworn/Starforged for example
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Jan 14, 2023 03:44
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Fuzz posted:
What's the gold-coloured enveloppy thing?
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Jan 14, 2023 03:46
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Cloth map.
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Jan 14, 2023 04:34
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Galaga Galaxian posted:Literally PBTA or PBTA derived/inspired but dramatically changed? Like Ironsworn/Starforged for example It's a pretty shameless ripoff of Masks, which makes sense since it's, y'know, made by the Masks people.
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Jan 14, 2023 07:14
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Lemniscate Blue posted:There have been a few really entertaining ones (from a spectator's point of view) over the years. My favorite memory was a first time player asking for a rules clarification in the thread: "If I agree to convoy someone's army, do I have to take them to the place I said I would?" I'm actually curious about that, what was the answer? I've played Diplomacy once, back in high school. My buddies invited me to join the group they were in. Naturally the new guy got curbstomped right out of the gate. They apologized, but I didn't go back.
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Jan 14, 2023 07:48
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mllaneza posted:I'm actually curious about that, what was the answer? If I recall, the answer was "no" but the player followed through on the agreement anyway. That may have been the same game where the referee commented "And Austria is either some kind of mastermind or has no idea at all what they're doing," followed a couple turns later by "It was the second thing." Gray press was the best part of spectating those games, but I imagine it made running them a lot harder.
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Jan 14, 2023 09:30
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Kestral posted:It's a pretty shameless ripoff of Masks, which makes sense since it's, y'know, made by the Masks people. It's really not a rip off of Masks. It doesn't have 6 sliding labels, it uses static ability scores based around personality, for example. The only sliding label is the classes' internal struggle: Balance, two opposing principles where you eventually lose one entirely when you find out who you are. Also, it doesn't borrow any moves or mechanics wholesale from Masks. It even invented and introduced a traditional combat system with over 100 techniques to use depending on your trainings (Universl, NPC Groups, Waterbending, Airbending, Firebending, Earthbending, Weapons, Technology). And it has Fatigue, a psuedo health resource that also powers your techniques, to use alongside Mask's condition system. I'm just scratching the surface but it's a really unique PbtA title with mechanics unique to itself. It's weird to say it's ripping off Masks.
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Jan 14, 2023 10:23
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I wanted to build on this post but I didn't want to derail the Industry thread any furtherSerf posted:Their podcast where they played 4E was what got me to buy the books back in the day. It sounded like fun, and it turned out that impression was right. I still remember when they did the live game of 5E and the guy running it couldn't explain why squares had been replaced by feet, and Scott Kurtz visibly lost interest 15 minutes in and was just doodling his character because all his cool powers were gone. Even before the Zak stuff that turned me off to the new edition entirely. for me it was the Crit Juice podcast. They ran a 4e campaign (I don't know when, but I was listening to it in 2013) that had scenes like: * a fight in an abandoned granary where the Warlock shot Chaos Bolts at the roof to cause it to cave in and the DM could adjudicate what that meant for the battlefield * a fight in an underground lake with a docked pirate ship where the players had to navigate from the pier to the ship, and there was many a buckle that was swashed as the Fighter and the Ranger clung onto ropes loosed from the masts to swing from one end of the ship to another * an adventure inside a gigantic gelatinous cube the size of an entire village - not only did the party have to surf the gelatinous material through a partially digested mansion, the adventure culminated in a steadily shrinking church where the players had to strike the bell at the top of the tower enough times to give the cube indigestion to force it to spit them out
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Jan 14, 2023 16:09
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Heck, the best PBP game I ever saw was a 4E game set in an Eberron college that ran for ages (for a PBP game) on RPG.net. I'm sure the GM tweaked things but it really sang even in that format.
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Jan 14, 2023 17:32
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hyphz posted:Cloth map. That's in the bottom right.
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