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I think kicking people off Krakoa would be probably be counter-productive and a recipe for creating a filtration system optimised to set things up as good mutants vs. naughty mutants again. As for the Pit - yeah, it's kind of a silly idea meta-textually. I think it's part of the early Krakoa table-setting to establish that this isn't the X-Men convincing Apocalypse and Sinister, et al, to be good people, but an actual synthesis of approaches in which the heroic mutants are just one partner, and so Krakoa as a state does amoral or outright evil things sometimes. It's meant to be part of your buy-in to the idea that this is a drastically different status quo, but I do think it goes a little overboard on how obviously nightmarish and dystopian it is. That's probably part of why it rarely comes up in other books. Although I think it was used really well in Hellions! (I actually think handing Sabretooth over the US government is probably more morally depraved than the Pit, though, honestly. Like the track record for the Marvel US government in terms of both experimenting on superhumans and how they treat mutants is evidently horrendous from any angle - all that results in is X-Force having to fight Weapon USA-bretooth and the Squadron Supreme a year later.)
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Jan 14, 2023 01:22
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Story wise there is absolutely no way to properly secure Sabertooth. Of all the x-villains he deserves permanent death the most.
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Jan 14, 2023 01:31
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I think the Pit was just created as something for other people to use later, which is the case with Sabretooth. It probably wasn't supposed to be horrific, but Creed is just such a corrupting influence that it's what happened, which is why Doug worked to get people out. Dunno why Doug didn't go tell people what hosed up things happened to it so they stop using it though.
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Jan 14, 2023 01:44
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doug sees more of the council than anyone that isn't part of it. he also has no trust or faith in it. so, he mostly does as he pleases without telling them.
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Jan 14, 2023 05:40
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Joe Fisto posted:Story wise there is absolutely no way to properly secure Sabertooth. Of all the x-villains he deserves permanent death the most.
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Jan 14, 2023 05:52
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sabertooth rules
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Jan 14, 2023 09:38
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gimme the GOD drat candy posted:doug sees more of the council than anyone that isn't part of it. he also has no trust or faith in it. so, he mostly does as he pleases without telling them. Divorce him, Bei. You deserve better 
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Jan 14, 2023 10:58
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Joe Fisto posted:Story wise there is absolutely no way to properly secure Sabertooth. Of all the x-villains he deserves permanent death the most. Sabertooth is a serial killer with a body count in the hundreds, probably guilty of war crimes, and I wouldn't bet against him being guilty of sexual assault, but I'd still say that Sinister, Stryfe, and Apocalypse are worse. That being said, from a storytelling standpoint, they do have more utility than "Oh no, Sabertooth is feeling himself again" And yet, the Sabertooth minis have been really good, so utility ain't everything
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Jan 14, 2023 11:30
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Sabretooth is interesting (and I say this as a long-time Sabretooth hater) because he's one of like two* (?) X-Men villains who are just criminals*. Everybody else wants to kill all mutants or elevate all mutants or turn all mutants into dinosaurs. There's definitely a conversation to be had about whether vivisecting mutants for their precious MGH or killing humans because you believe they're genetically inferior to mutants is worse than doing it because it's fun. *It's what, him and Juggernaut?
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Jan 14, 2023 15:39
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OnimaruXLR posted:I wouldn't bet against him being guilty of sexual assault It's heavily implied if not outright stated (it's been a while since I read it) that Sabretooth sexually assaults Silver Fox before he "kills" her in the OG Wolverine #10. But since she didn't die who knows.
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Jan 14, 2023 16:43
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Juggernaut to me has always been at his best when he's either just trying to lay low but the X-Men end up loving with him, or my absolute favorite use, when he's genuinely trying to be a good guy but things go poorly either because people distrust him or he doesn't trust himself. I also liked Sabretooth when we was SIXIS inverted though, so maybe I've just got a type.
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Jan 14, 2023 16:49
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OnimaruXLR posted:Sabertooth is a serial killer with a body count in the hundreds, probably guilty of war crimes, and I wouldn't bet against him being guilty of sexual assault, but I'd still say that Sinister, Stryfe, and Apocalypse are worse. I’m not actually arguing that Marvel get rid of him, he’s great for stories. I don’t think you were saying that, just clarifying. Now from the X-Men’s perspective, they know that every single time they’ve put him in captivity he escapes. When he escapes he kills everyone around him. In the hundreds of years he’s been alive he’s killed thousands of people. Not out of necessity or for a job each time, sometimes for fun or to gently caress with someone else. It’s heavily implied he uses sexual violence as a torture method to get what he wants. He’s completely unrepentant and will just continue to murder swaths of people as long as he’s alive. The council had to have known he’d get out of the pit. Him escaping and killing more people was inevitable. They had the chance to permanently take him off the board and they failed. Even in mutant paradise he’s still a monster. A monster sho loves what he does. At least Sinister and Apocalypse behaved for a while. I think Apocalypse did okay until his exile deals in X of Swords.
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Jan 14, 2023 16:53
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rantmo posted:Juggernaut to me has always been at his best when he's either just trying to lay low but the X-Men end up loving with him, or my absolute favorite use, when he's genuinely trying to be a good guy but things go poorly either because people distrust him or he doesn't trust himself. I also liked Sabretooth when we was SIXIS inverted though, so maybe I've just got a type. One of my favorite issues remains Wolverine and Nightcrawler letting Cain knock the stuffing out of Colossus because Piotr was a dick to Kitty. Juggernaut just wanted a quiet drink, man.
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Jan 14, 2023 17:00
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Joe Fisto posted:The council had to have known he’d get out of the pit. Him escaping and killing more people was inevitable. They had the chance to permanently take him off the board and they failed. Even in mutant paradise he’s still a monster. A monster sho loves what he does. At least Sinister and Apocalypse behaved for a while. I think Apocalypse did okay until his exile deals in X of Swords. I dunno, I think they were riding high on the "we created mutant paradise" and didn't think Sabretooth would ever get out. Krakoa held onto Vulcan and Darwin for decades, I figure the council expected the same for Victor.
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Jan 14, 2023 17:21
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GOD IS BED posted:I dunno, I think they were riding high on the "we created mutant paradise" and didn't think Sabretooth would ever get out. Krakoa held onto Vulcan and Darwin for decades, I figure the council expected the same for Victor. They must’ve been really high on their own farts to believe that. If you lock a guy up 10 times and he escapes 10 times, there’s no reason to believe the 11th time will be different.
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Jan 14, 2023 17:40
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getting punisherpilled itt
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Jan 14, 2023 18:08
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But the 11th time was in a living island. Honestly, the "best" solution would be to have Krakoa eat him, and just put him at the end of the resurrection protocol. Your punishment is being behind 16 million other people to be brought back to life.
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Jan 14, 2023 18:10
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site posted:getting punisherpilled itt 
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Jan 14, 2023 18:12
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I mean, Sabretooth probably could have been contained if the council had not promptly decided it was all fixed forever after chucking him in a hole, and Doug privately deciding that hooking him up to the islands subconscious so he could do big budget murder fantasies forever was not a situation that needed persistent monitoring. Victor got deeply lucky and the nation of Krakoa running on enduring hubris did the rest.
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Jan 14, 2023 18:32
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Rochallor posted:Sabretooth is interesting (and I say this as a long-time Sabretooth hater) because he's one of like two* (?) X-Men villains who are just criminals*. Everybody else wants to kill all mutants or elevate all mutants or turn all mutants into dinosaurs. There's definitely a conversation to be had about whether vivisecting mutants for their precious MGH or killing humans because you believe they're genetically inferior to mutants is worse than doing it because it's fun. there was a really bad wolverine arc where sabretooth got ahold of a reality warping device and tried to turn the world into a low-powered primitive planet.
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Jan 14, 2023 19:10
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Just like Selene, the true solution should be Hope killing them and then not resurrecting them!
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Jan 14, 2023 19:19
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except Selene was right and correct.
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Jan 14, 2023 22:14
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Dawgstar posted:One of my favorite issues remains Wolverine and Nightcrawler letting Cain knock the stuffing out of Colossus because Piotr was a dick to Kitty. Juggernaut just wanted a quiet drink, man. It's one of the best comic book issues ever.
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Jan 15, 2023 01:01
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Caidin posted:I mean, Sabretooth probably could have been contained if the council had not promptly decided it was all fixed forever after chucking him in a hole, and Doug privately deciding that hooking him up to the islands subconscious so he could do big budget murder fantasies forever was not a situation that needed persistent monitoring. Victor got deeply lucky and the nation of Krakoa running on enduring hubris did the rest. I consider hooking him up to a plant VR where he could live his fantasies to be a pretty humane way to deal with him, it's just, yeah, it needed some persistent monitoring. And maybe some element pushing him towards personal growth beyond being walking murder factory. The thing about Sabertooth is we have various famous alternate realities where he was able to be a hero. E: I always wondered if the reason Sabertooth went so far off the deep end was that this is like a third generation copy by Sinister at this point. Most of the alternate reality Sabertooths have him steering clear of involvement with Sinister. Rick fucked around with this message at 01:26 on Jan 15, 2023 |
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Jan 15, 2023 01:21
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Joe Fisto posted:Now from the X-Men’s perspective, they know that every single time they’ve put him in captivity he escapes. When he escapes he kills everyone around him. In the hundreds of years he’s been alive he’s killed thousands of people. Not out of necessity or for a job each time, sometimes for fun or to gently caress with someone else. It’s heavily implied he uses sexual violence as a torture method to get what he wants. He’s completely unrepentant and will just continue to murder swaths of people as long as he’s alive. As a rule, I do not care for Scott Lobdell's run on X-Men. There's a sequence at some point in his run, though, where somebody uses the Danger Room to confront Sabertooth with holographic images of a bunch of his victims, and I remember it being a remarkably effective horror piece. I remember one of the images was a young woman who says something like "My mistake was sleeping with my window open."
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Jan 15, 2023 03:13
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Wanderer posted:As a rule, I do not care for Scott Lobdell's run on X-Men. Was that during Scott Lobdell's X-Men or Jeph Loeb's X-Force?
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Jan 15, 2023 03:28
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Alaois posted:Was that during Scott Lobdell's X-Men or Jeph Loeb's X-Force? It was Lobdell, because I believe Joe Mad was on the art.
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Jan 15, 2023 03:35
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BrianWilly posted:This is the problem and I've said it before; there are twelve people on the council. Jean was on there. Storm is on there. Kurt is on there. All of them voted in favor of the pit right alongside Xavier, so framing Krakoa's problems as an Xavier-specific thing is bunk. Between letting Sabertooth go, letting Nature Girl go, and letting Moira go, Doug right now has been responsible for like many times the amount of heinous crockery than Chuck ever did, but he's still waltzing around play-acting the resident soft boy? The pit was basically never intended to be used again, it was just a punishment for Creed and the whole council thought he should be punished. It was more iffy when they sent the next five in as Xavier and Magneto did it without the other members of the council being there to vote about it. (Though unlike Creed they intended the next fives stay to be short.) Rochallor posted:Sabretooth is interesting (and I say this as a long-time Sabretooth hater) because he's one of like two* (?) X-Men villains who are just criminals*. Everybody else wants to kill all mutants or elevate all mutants or turn all mutants into dinosaurs. There's definitely a conversation to be had about whether vivisecting mutants for their precious MGH or killing humans because you believe they're genetically inferior to mutants is worse than doing it because it's fun. The Hellfire Club was also just seeking power for powers sake, they tended not to really give a crap about mutant rights. rantmo posted:Juggernaut to me has always been at his best when he's either just trying to lay low but the X-Men end up loving with him, or my absolute favorite use, when he's genuinely trying to be a good guy but things go poorly either because people distrust him or he doesn't trust himself. I also liked Sabretooth when we was SIXIS inverted though, so maybe I've just got a type. Codependent Poster posted:Just like Selene, the true solution should be Hope killing them and then not resurrecting them! Well they intend to bring her back eventually. MonsterEnvy fucked around with this message at 06:59 on Jan 15, 2023 |
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Jan 15, 2023 06:53
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remember why creed got sent to the pit in the first place. the council sent him out on an espionage mission and he killed some people, then they retroactively applied a law they came up with afterward. i repeat, they sent victor creed out on a mission and then had the gall to pretend to be shocked at the outcome. the pit's hosed up, sure, but the reason why sabretooth was sent there was extra hosed up. then there's x-force, which has carte blanche when it comes to killing humans. supposedly that would be for missions on behalf of krakoa just like sabretooth got nailed for, but, well, hank. i'm not going to go into his bullshit again right now. still, it's very ugly.
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Jan 15, 2023 07:25
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gimme the GOD drat candy posted:remember why creed got sent to the pit in the first place. the council sent him out on an espionage mission and he killed some people, then they retroactively applied a law they came up with afterward. i repeat, they sent victor creed out on a mission and then had the gall to pretend to be shocked at the outcome. the pit's hosed up, sure, but the reason why sabretooth was sent there was extra hosed up. then there's x-force, which has carte blanche when it comes to killing humans. supposedly that would be for missions on behalf of krakoa just like sabretooth got nailed for, but, well, hank. i'm not going to go into his bullshit again right now. still, it's very ugly. To be fair: Creed had explicit orders not to kill and everyone else on the mission managed not to do that. He was the one who needed to kill other people the least out of everyone there as he had 0 risk of being killed or permanently injured.
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Jan 15, 2023 08:29
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To me the Sabertooth mission still comes across as the Council stress testing their new experiment, trying to determine if all this *gestures vaguely* was really going to work. Can they really give every mutant, including the worst of the worst, blanket amnesty and invite them to their home and expect these people to -- if not actively contribute to building up Krakoa -- at least be able to follow their rules? And the answer, as it turns out, was..."not really." Some mutants are just not going to play ball and color within their lines. And it's not as if this was some sort of labyrinthine "gotcha" fakeout for the guy; "don't murder people" is not exactly a high bar, here.  X-Force is currently a trash fire piss heap that should be shot into the sun and like, loving Omega Red has turned out to be the least objectionable element here somehow...but I will argue that the overall premise of a vetted, sanctioned group being the only ones allowed to do some murders isn't, like...insane or something. The problem is that the body that vetted them in the first place don't seem to be overseeing their actions at all, which I find to be completely ludicrous. Everyone on the island from Kate to Firestar seems to be aware how low Hank is sinking but they all just seem to forget to care about it in between panels. Still, Idie being like "Uhh why don't I get to kill people? Just because I'm not on the right team?" was like...uh, yeah girl. That's actually correct. That is in fact how things work. BrianWilly fucked around with this message at 10:23 on Jan 15, 2023 |
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Jan 15, 2023 09:37
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MonsterEnvy posted:The Hellfire Club was also just seeking power for powers sake, they tended not to really give a crap about mutant rights. Yeah, in a recent Immortal X-Men Shaw talks monologues (to himself) that his only regret in helping fund the then current wave of Sentinels was not making more off the deal.
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Jan 15, 2023 12:30
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Wanderer posted:It was Lobdell, because I believe Joe Mad was on the art. Uncanny X-Men 326. Gambit confronts a brain-damaged Sabretooth over his past while Xavier and Beast have a heart to heart.
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Jan 15, 2023 18:12
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MonsterEnvy posted:Has Juggs regrouped with his pal Black Tom yet? A little bit, they've definitely had some interactions but nothing meaningful as I recall.
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Jan 15, 2023 18:18
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Also being going though the original X-Men series and have gotten to the introduction of the Marauders. (And Sabretooth's first X-Men appearance) Man they were a dark story. It's also kind of amusing seeing X-Factor and the Magneto run X-Men who both think the other is corrupting Xavier's Dream.
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Jan 15, 2023 21:30
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the x-men were right about x-factor, though. the on-call mutant hunter thing was such an awful idea that retconning it into a ploy to sabotage mutant/human relations was a step up.
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Jan 15, 2023 22:21
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gimme the GOD drat candy posted:the x-men were right about x-factor, though. the on-call mutant hunter thing was such an awful idea that retconning it into a ploy to sabotage mutant/human relations was a step up. I don't think that counts as a retcon. They were always doing the job to help mutants and while I don't know if Hodge's heel turn was in the original plans, he's shady from the get-go.
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Jan 15, 2023 22:49
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Yeah that does not seem like a retcon the team notices not too far in that mutant-human relations are deteriorating and they are probably making things worse.
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Jan 16, 2023 01:13
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Do they start noticing this before or after Bob Layton leaves the book
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Jan 16, 2023 01:28
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Alaois posted:Do they start noticing this before or after Bob Layton leaves the book Issue 7 they point out issues with it.
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Jan 16, 2023 01:44
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