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KOTEX GOD OF BLOOD posted:It's been a few years since I popped into that thread, but I remember they were obsessed with (a) battery fires, which have been happening with basically every BEV make, and (b) this "whompy wheels" thing invented by a British climate denier who took pictures of wrecked Teslas from junkyards and pasted them into falsified regulatory complaints. I don't think internet anecdotes should be used as data for anything that isn't data about internet anecdotes.
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Jan 14, 2023 14:01
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The major internet search engines are very good at their job, so get on any one of them and search for "<vehicle make+model> problems" and you will find a whole bunch of them. That doesn't mean <vehicle make+model> are all unreliable or complete garbage and it is just conformation bias if you think it does. Look up any popular vehicle and you will likely find a fair share of bizarre and unique issues. Like this one youtube channel "Just rolled in" worked its way into my feed and there is a small but fairly consistent rate of some vehicle with less than 300 miles total on the odometer showing up in a shop with an exploded engine or transmission. Vehicles are big complex machines with lots of moving parts (even the "simpler" electric ones), something can always go wrong but searching for a list of problems on them on the internet is going to totally amplify the scale of how often it happens because that is what search engines are supposed to do.
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Jan 14, 2023 14:18
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Problems with the brakes has been a problem with BEVs and some hybrids. A few Tesla's had that years ago because people were relying on the regenerative stopping more than actually using the brakes or something. There were early reports of people having to wait a while for replacement parts (windshields that de-laminated, door handles). That's back when people would Tweet Elon to get things fixed. Now it's really just a crapshoot of whether your local service is good and if they have spares. Tesla absolutely had that overeager ECM writing thing that was bricking early tablets though lol KOTEX GOD OF BLOOD posted:It's been a few years since I popped into that thread, but I remember they were obsessed with (a) battery fires, which have been happening with basically every BEV make 
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Jan 14, 2023 15:09
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KOTEX GOD OF BLOOD posted:Just from a quick scan of the group: brake rotors getting rusty and popping loose after sitting wet is an issue on all EVs. You barely use the brakes on them at all with the regen just buy your Tesla already Jesus Tiny Timbs fucked around with this message at 16:03 on Jan 14, 2023 |
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Jan 14, 2023 16:00
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pun pundit posted:I don't think internet anecdotes should be used as data for anything that isn't data about internet anecdotes.  I was going to reply to the twitter thread of the person who got water in their trunk and computer but then you posted this. Build mistakes are going to happen, and honestly I wouldn't even hold that Polestar list up as anything other than a collection of anecdotes. What you need to compare build quality is aggregate data, and I don't know that this even exists. Maybe it does. It's going to be dry reading, not as exciting as a Twitter post of water in a trunk. Tiny Timbs posted:just buy your Tesla already Jesus K-GOB, At the end of the day, you're just going to have to take the plunge and hope you don't get a lemon. There's no way to predict whether the worker attaching your passenger door panel just found out that her girlfriend has been cheating on her and in a fit of rage forgot to attach a crucial bolt that will prevent the door from falling off as soon as you hit a pothole. It seems pretty clear to some of us that you like the Tesla better than the Polestar, so we think you should just get the Tesla. I imagine we'd be telling you to just get the Polestar if you were clearly favoring Polestar. But whatever you do, remember to give us a photo. Otherwise you'll get a sixxer. cruft fucked around with this message at 16:30 on Jan 14, 2023 |
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Jan 14, 2023 16:23
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pun pundit posted:I don't think internet anecdotes should be used as data for anything that isn't data about internet anecdotes.
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Jan 14, 2023 16:57
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Any new news on the Kia EV 9? So far from what I see, it looks almost perfect to me. 1. Level 3 driving tech 2. Looks a bit like a stretched out three row Scion XB (this is a plus for me, plenty of spacious room) 3. EV 4. Around $50,000 (would love for it to qualify for the tax break if possible but I don’t think it will)
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Jan 14, 2023 17:04
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I’m glad there haven’t been serious recalls or issues with like every EV or the Tesla hate would look like serious politically-related groupthink
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Jan 14, 2023 17:58
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cruft posted:Build mistakes are going to happen, and honestly I wouldn't even hold that Polestar list up as anything other than a collection of anecdotes. What you need to compare build quality is aggregate data, and I don't know that this even exists. Maybe it does. It's going to be dry reading, not as exciting as a Twitter post of water in a trunk. The JD Power rating is the most comprehensive aggregate data on "reliability" issues for cars sold in the US, the major issue with it being every issue counts as 1, phone has trouble connecting to Android Auto? 1 complaint. Engine explodes? 1 complaint. Chevy Bolt catches your garage on fire and immoliates your family? 1 complaint. Anyways, for 2022 JD Power didn't rank Tesla at all, citing "a low sample size" which seems suspicious as gently caress, because Alfa, Jag, and Land Rover are all on there, and they sell way less cars than Tesla does, Land Rover sells less per year than Tesla does per month. Tesla appears nowhere on the chart, despite selling 1.3 million vehicles in 2022. In 2021 JD power also didn't rank Tesla, but they did give the average number of complaints per 100 vehicles, and it would have ranked Tesla as 4rd-to-last, right above LR, Jaaaaaaaag and Alfa. That checks with most people's gut feeling that Tesla's QA sucks poo poo and they have a ton of, usually minor build errors.  Also their CEO is a massive, unbelievable piece of poo poo.
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Jan 14, 2023 18:06
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Euronymous posted:I’m glad there haven’t been serious recalls or issues with like every EV or the Tesla hate would look like serious politically-related groupthink Oh no, wouldn't want to get political over the car company owned by the dude signal-boosting white supremacists on his social media site. 
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Jan 14, 2023 18:08
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Euronymous posted:I’m glad there haven’t been serious recalls or issues with like every EV or the Tesla hate would look like serious politically-related groupthink I mean, the man has injected injected in social/political discourse in a very loud and public way it’s pretty unavoidable to separate the two. Barring aside the whole no ethical consumption under capitalism you have to be living under a big loving rock to be able to avoid or live ignorant of his opinions (which are really genuinely abhorrent). The recall and build quality poo poo is mainly from the bad streak where they rapidly expanded the US factory to keep up with demand. The newer stuff is fine and buying them is piss easy but just like any other car, just say no if there’s issues. It’s that easy!
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Jan 14, 2023 18:09
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I don't think it is political or even had that much to do with Musk originally. I think it's more that it was the most heavily shorted stock in history and a narrative catering these people emerged that Tesla had to fail. When it didn't, that shifted to "well the cars are bad." I think it's one thing to say they are or have been poorly built (that seems fairly incontrovertible) but quite another to say they are bad as cars, when basically every professional automotive reviewer has given them reviews that range from good to great (hi DrGitlin!) People hate to be wrong and goons will never admit it. That being said I'm not sure it's a better car than the Polestar, and Musk loving sucks. He sucks so much that it may affect the long-term proposition of owning the car in my hyper-liberal Northeast market, where, like me, no one wants to be associated with this rear end in a top hat. KOTEX GOD OF BLOOD fucked around with this message at 18:12 on Jan 14, 2023 |
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Jan 14, 2023 18:09
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It's pretty undeniable that Tesla's power train engineering is absolutely world class, and probably the best of any EV manufacturer. That gap will continue to shrink though.
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Jan 14, 2023 18:12
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Also it’s very easy to ignore all the bullshit and say (for me, anyways) that their interior philosophy of no buttons, everything on a single screen console in the middle is simply incontable with what I’m looking for in a vehicle in terms of use and comfort. I loving love me some techy poo poo but their forced minimalism and interior decisions are loving wild and not in a good way.
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Jan 14, 2023 18:18
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KOTEX GOD OF BLOOD posted:I don't think it is political or even had that much to do with Musk originally. I think it's more that it was the most heavily shorted stock in history and a narrative catering these people emerged that Tesla had to fail. When it didn't, that shifted to "well the cars are bad." I think it's one thing to say they are or have been poorly built (that seems fairly incontrovertible) but quite another to say they are bad as cars, when basically every professional automotive reviewer has given them reviews that range from good to great (hi DrGitlin!) People hate to be wrong and goons will never admit it. The stock was heavily shorted because it was and still is massively overvalued by basically any useful metric. It was a meme stock indicative of worst excesses of the market being completely unmoored from reality and when you couple that with the quality issues (also mentioned by basically every reviewer), the Rick and Morty CEO, the clown car of hangers on that came out of the woodwork to inundate anyone who didn’t love car on social media, the frequent stories about lovely working conditions at Tesla, etc, it’s not really surprising that people expect the things to be pieces of poo poo. Elviscat posted:It's pretty undeniable that Tesla's power train engineering is absolutely world class, and probably the best of any EV manufacturer. That gap will continue to shrink though. The GM of the EV world. Great power train, shame about the rest.
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Jan 14, 2023 18:20
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So you buying it or not, K GoB? poo poo or get off the pot!
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Jan 14, 2023 18:44
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YOLOsubmarine posted:The stock was heavily shorted because it was and still is massively overvalued by basically any useful metric. It was a meme stock indicative of worst excesses of the market being completely unmoored from reality When Tesla defied these expectations, it set off some absurd frothing on both sides of the matter: on the one hand, denialists who would refuse to accept at every step that the company and its cars were successful or could ever be, in defiance of an obvious reality (the cars have sold extremely well); and on the other hand, cultish Muskites who refuse to acknowledge ongoing quality issues with the cars and the fact that beyond the powertrain and features they haven't matured much beyond an early-adopter product, also in defiance of an obvious reality. In the middle of these absurd and extremely online factions are the ordinary owners who really don't give a poo poo about this entire dumb thing and are, for the most part, satisfied with their cars (a few of them even post in this thread!) Clearly a lot of people are having problems with the cars, and many of those problems are due to asinine choices by the company, but that's not really representative of how the overall ownership experience is playing out in the market. People like these products. The Musk problem is finally catching up with that situation though. A social stigma is fomenting around their ownership, at least where I live where everyone is progressive and loaded. Nobody wants to be associated with this rear end in a top hat. This is basically the target demographic for these cars, so that is really bad for the company's long term prospects, especially if other carmakers can catch up to Tesla's offering. Aside from the build quality, they're not quite there yet, but it won't be long. KOTEX GOD OF BLOOD fucked around with this message at 19:04 on Jan 14, 2023 |
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Jan 14, 2023 18:53
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Steakandchips posted:So you buying it or not, K GoB? poo poo or get off the pot!
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Jan 14, 2023 18:54
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Elviscat posted:The JD Power rating is the most comprehensive aggregate data on "reliability" issues for cars sold in the US, the major issue with it being every issue counts as 1, phone has trouble connecting to Android Auto? 1 complaint. Engine explodes? 1 complaint. Chevy Bolt catches your garage on fire and immoliates your family? 1 complaint. Industry average is 121 problems per 100 cars, eh? Wow.
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Jan 14, 2023 19:15
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Based on that chart, we should clearly pivot to advising everybody buy the Cadillac Lyriq.
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Jan 14, 2023 19:17
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KOTEX GOD OFBLOOD posted:So this was the argument when the value of the stock was actually not that high. The idea was that no electric car had ever been successful, no new car company had been successful in the US in a half century, and that the combination of the two was a joke. Shorting it seemed like a pretty obvious choice. Short interest peaked around the time the Model 3 was supposed to come out and Musk was making doom and gloom statements about how Tesla might go bankrupt. It was driven by pretty specific factors. Tesla was valued at more than, for instance, Ford even at that time. They had never had a profitable quarter by that point. The stock was still overpriced and most indicators were not in their favor. Musk turned this into an “us against them” siege mentality and that was really the genesis. Nobody gives a poo poo when other companies get shorted because their CEOs don’t rile up their followers on social media claiming a vast conspiracy to prevent them from succeeding and ushering in a beautiful new future. So yes, things polarized, but I don’t think it’s really reasonable to say that the two sides were equally at fault.
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Jan 14, 2023 19:25
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Elviscat posted:I guess this is a Y not a 3, but Teslas have some... unique issues https://twitter.com/rust1n/status/1612692296461582337?t=Rt4Kb0iknDXOxdSfXCbdCQ&s=19 Does the car not let you drive with these errors? Or was the drivers just cautious getting a tow?
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Jan 14, 2023 19:32
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YOLOsubmarine posted:Short interest peaked around the time the Model 3 was supposed to come out and Musk was making doom and gloom statements about how Tesla might go bankrupt. It was driven by pretty specific factors. Russian Bear posted:Does the car not let you drive with these errors? Or was the drivers just cautious getting a tow? KOTEX GOD OF BLOOD fucked around with this message at 19:39 on Jan 14, 2023 |
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Jan 14, 2023 19:34
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cruft posted:Industry average is 121 problems per 100 cars, eh? Wow. Every single car is a piece of poo poo
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Jan 14, 2023 19:45
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KOTEX GOD OF BLOOD posted:You are still scrubbing way ahead in the history. That's when shorting peaked, but the stock was still being heavily shorted when Musk's promises about the Model S seemed ludicrous. It certainly wasn't irrational to short the stock at that point, but the fact that things turned out much differently is what set off the beginnings of the frothing, disproportionate rage about the company. I think the idea that public opinion on the company is driven by angry short sellers is conspiracy thinking. Most of that volume is institutional investors who bet for and against hundreds of companies at a time. There was certainly a vocal online contingent rooting for the company do fail but Musk linking all negativity to astroturfing by angry short sellers is Trump level reality distortion. You’re correct that none of it really affects the actual cars one way or the other, but Tesla’s current financial position is built substantially on their ability to raise capital during the recent bubble. They’ve gotten to play by a different set of rules than every other car company and that comes with benefits and drawbacks. If they were treated as “just another car company” they probably wouldn’t exist anymore. mobby_6kl posted:Every single car is a piece of poo poo It’s actually the opposite. Modern cars are extremely good and reliable relative to basically any time in history. There’s just a lot more small things that can go wrong because of the proliferation of features, and those small things get counted the same as the big things.
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Jan 14, 2023 19:49
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KOTEX GOD OF BLOOD posted:It's been about five years since I drove an M3LR. I'm gonna test it back to back with the Polestar and just buy whichever I like more. Good man, hopefully the nicer interior of the P* swings it for you!
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Jan 14, 2023 20:13
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Steakandchips posted:Good man, hopefully the nicer interior of the P* swings it for you!
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Jan 14, 2023 20:49
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YOLOsubmarine posted:I think the idea that public opinion on the company is driven by angry short sellers is conspiracy thinking.
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Jan 14, 2023 20:51
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cruft posted:Based on that chart, we should clearly pivot to advising everybody buy the Cadillac Lyriq. Yes. It's a good wagon, shame about the wait list.
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Jan 14, 2023 20:55
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KOTEX GOD OF BLOOD posted:It's been a few years since I popped into that thread, but I remember they were obsessed with (a) battery fires, which have been happening with basically every BEV make That applies to heater problems, squeaky brakes, and charging problems too (which, again, are not things that I've ever encountered - internet anecdotes are less than useless for assessing average car quality).
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Jan 14, 2023 20:59
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I'm sorry but how do get into these arguments without the context that the core Tesla offering, the foundation of it's entire valuation of a company, is a giant scam that they are fleecing buyers with at the cost of $15,000 per car while endangering the general public with it. I get how we can argue about the general quality of the car, I think a lot of it Tesla selling a very much not luxury car at luxury car prices and luxury car public perception to otherwise non-luxury car buyers and that puts all sorts of product perception issues into play but... FSD IS A SCAM! And it is the entire core of the company!
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Jan 14, 2023 22:55
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I mean, early Model S was kind of a luxury to the extent that it was chock full of techy stuff. The plain interior kind of placed the focus on the rest of the car experience. Everyone else caught up so having a touchscreen surface in a car isn't novel anymore so now we look at the rest of the interior bits and it's like "uh, ok. That's it, huh?"
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Jan 14, 2023 23:07
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I think everyone constrains themselves to particular perspectives when it comes to cars. Our only frame of reference is that expensive cars are luxury cars. Teslas are not luxury cars, they're just expensive cars. Being luxurious is how some car companies convince buyers to spend more money, but we've seen that it's not the only reason buyers would find it worth it to spend extra. I'm not a car person, and I'd probably drive, idk, like a Tiguan or something in the alternate reality where tesla never came along and EVs remained quicky city cars with any compelling options limited to concepts that never release. FSD will not get to Level 5 automation anytime soon, and selling people that dream for $15k while drip feeding progress is them scamming their most loyal customers. THAT SAID, the lane centering, auto lane change, and confidence that the charger you're driving towards is function is worth quite a bit to me, and clearly others. Musk is a moron and anyone that buys into his cult of personality is as well, but it's not like there are zero upsides here. In the long term there will be no reason to get a tesla, since decent lane centering, auto lane changes, and a robust charging network will be available on way more brands. Until then, it shouldn't be surprising that people buy the cars. Sorry if that was unfocused. My main point is that many people realize they aren't luxurious, but they may still find the additional cost justified vs other offerings.
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Jan 14, 2023 23:09
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YOLOsubmarine posted:It’s actually the opposite. Modern cars are extremely good and reliable relative to basically any time in history. There’s just a lot more small things that can go wrong because of the proliferation of features, and those small things get counted the same as the big things. Its not even things going wrong a lot of the time. Every car brand I have worked for has a big push every year around IQS time to make sure all of the stupid things that you would expect people to be able to figure are explained in detail. Otherwise you will get someone giving an issue of them not knowing how to adjust the seat or steering wheel as an issue, or not understanding why an advanced safety feature is doing exactly what it is designed to do. If anything the IQS study is probably a better indicator of what brands to a good job with ergonomics and human factors in their tech than actual outright reliability. I'm sure there are plenty of non enthusiast tesla customers who end up getting frustrated with a UI issue in the first 3 months of ownership.
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Jan 14, 2023 23:15
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I went from a Tesla Model 3 to a Hyundai Kona N because I make bad decisions, but it was a very good car for my purposes. If you're in this forum, you're probably aware of all the insane build quality issues that Tesla has and the fact that it's run by a bad man who seems intent on making the planet bad, so if you're still feeling like you want one then you'll probably be happy with it.
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Jan 14, 2023 23:24
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QuarkJets posted:That applies to heater problems, squeaky brakes, and charging problems too (which, again, are not things that I've ever encountered - internet anecdotes are less than useless for assessing average car quality). Also, I've read that Tesla is opening Superchargers to other makes. Does that mean I could charge a P2 there with an adapter?
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Jan 15, 2023 00:19
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Teslas are cheap sports cars with technology for people who probably shouldn't be driving something with so much power.
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Jan 15, 2023 00:34
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Lookin' to make the jump to a PHEV or EV. Standard boring, uninspiring 2 kids + dog CUV to mid-sized SUV for under $55k. RAV4 Prime, Sportage, Tucson, EV6, whatever--that sort of thing. We have the sort of bimodal driving distribution where it's <25mi day to day, but with regular trips deep into the middle of nowhere for family stuff. My dream would be a wagon, but reliable and non-luxury versions of those don't seem to exist? Am I correct in assuming that virtually every non-Tesla option out there right now is attainable only through massive waitlists, paying well above MSRP, and appetite for dealer bullshit?
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Jan 15, 2023 01:14
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Hey yo, I'm getting reports of Muskchat. I ain't reading threads today because I'm under a 400hp Forester that is having fuel problems and dropping the tank so I'm seriously not in the mood to press buttons or moderate poo poo so if if there is Muskchat, you know where to take it. If there isnt, apologies for the interruption
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Jan 15, 2023 01:15
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I think it’s pretty easy not to buy FSD. The feature has only gotten more unappealing with time as the price has massively gone up and competition has gotten really good at safely automating the parts of driving that people actually find boring.
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Jan 15, 2023 01:23
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