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It probably varies from person to person, but when I first read the Silmarillion I found the included maps (which are in the same style as the LotR maps) to be just as intricately tied to the text as was the case with LotR, and it really kept me invested to the same degree. Plus all the little semi-mythological connections you end up getting like the Meneltarma becoming an island you could see from Emyn Beraid with a Palantír, or the Blue Mountains getting gashed in half by the Bay of Lindon so you could match up those post-apocalyptic points of reference. Those nerdy little exercises were always intensely my jam fwiw.
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Jan 15, 2023 03:49
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Mike N Eich posted:I’m not sure why people hype up how dense it is, because it really does come easy. I think its reputation comes down in large part to the chapter listing out all the valar, and even more to the chapter that is just a text description of the map with very little actual narrative to it.
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Jan 15, 2023 05:07
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Anshu posted:I think its reputation comes down in large part to the chapter listing out all the valar, and even more to the chapter that is just a text description of the map with very little actual narrative to it. Yeah it doesn't help that the Valar listing is right at the beginning too and the rather trippy music of the spheres bits.
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Jan 15, 2023 05:11
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When I reread a couple years ago I thought the early stuff wasn't hard to keep track of, but late in the book there are so many elves and they're all related and hate each other and it got kind of overwhelming.
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Jan 15, 2023 05:40
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If an elf's name starts with F, they're kind of a cock; if their name starts with C, they're a mega-cock, and if their name starts with M, they're relatively cool.
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Jan 15, 2023 07:55
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Ok. So it's like an alphabetised system. Anatar. Hmm. Checks out. Is "z" allowed in sindarin?
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Jan 15, 2023 08:05
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Does the rule apply to Celeborn or to Teleporno?
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Jan 15, 2023 12:12
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Bongo Bill posted:If an elf's name starts with F, they're kind of a cock; if their name starts with C, they're a mega-cock, and if their name starts with M, they're relatively cool. Fingolfin is pretty much the coolest and best elf, so there are definitely exceptions.
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Jan 15, 2023 13:00
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Plus Finarfin, Finrod, Fingon. Imo more like if it starts with F then they are Great and Significant (and gonna die horribly in an avoidable way)
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Jan 15, 2023 13:07
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Celeborn is good and Celegorm is bad Beleriand is a land of contrasts
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Jan 15, 2023 13:26
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Try this next https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lays_of_Beleriand You can skip all the Christopher Tolkien stuff and just read the poems And of course book of lost tales 1 and 2. 1 is a little weird Book 2 has the greatest hits euphronius fucked around with this message at 17:08 on Jan 15, 2023 |
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Jan 15, 2023 17:06
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Oh also the new books are good too
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Jan 15, 2023 17:10
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Before we met, my wife went to the UK and got to see a Lord of the Rings stage play. We found out recently that she still has the program for the play stashed away. I took some pics that I thought y'all might like poring over:         She said the play was really cool; it was interactive so like, the orcs would come out into the crowd and razzle the patrons during the helms deep sequence, and the Ents were ppl on stilts striding around the crowd during the entmoot. Wish I could have seen it.
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Jan 15, 2023 18:29
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Data Graham posted:It probably varies from person to person, but when I first read the Silmarillion I found the included maps (which are in the same style as the LotR maps) to be just as intricately tied to the text as was the case with LotR, and it really kept me invested to the same degree. Plus all the little semi-mythological connections you end up getting like the Meneltarma becoming an island you could see from Emyn Beraid with a Palantír, or the Blue Mountains getting gashed in half by the Bay of Lindon so you could match up those post-apocalyptic points of reference. Those nerdy little exercises were always intensely my jam fwiw. This is probably tied to my issue - I have a very small softcover (put out by Del Rey) that only has one tiny lovely almost illegible map in the back. I’m sure I’d have a better time with bigger and higher resolution maps. I’m able to keep track of the elves for the most part but now that I’m getting into the lineages of Man and hoo boy there are too many and they are all named Huir, Huron, Hurin, Huor, Harin, Hardin, etc that I have ceased trying to keep track
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Jan 15, 2023 18:52
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Good editions have whole family tree diagrams to help with that too 
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Jan 15, 2023 20:01
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Tom Bombadilong
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Jan 15, 2023 21:37
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So today I stumbled across the Elizabethan poet Michael Drayton’s “Nymphidia”, which Tolkien rubbishes in “On Fairy-Stories” next to Midsummer Night’s Dream as one of the exemplars of inexcusably goofy (and worse, morally unedifying) fairy art that he was trying to get away from. https://www.luminarium.org/editions/nymphidia.htm I thought it was hilarious though, and maybe Tolkien had too at one point, because there’s parts of this poem that clearly inspired his own “Errantry” and even lasted into the published “Eärendil was a mariner”—the clueless little elf going on to harass the local insects and in particular, the mock-epic panoply of random crap he puts on. Hope someone else enjoys
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Jan 17, 2023 16:06
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skasion posted:So today I stumbled across the Elizabethan poet Michael Drayton’s “Nymphidia”, which Tolkien rubbishes in “On Fairy-Stories” next to Midsummer Night’s Dream as one of the exemplars of inexcusably goofy (and worse, morally unedifying) fairy art that he was trying to get away from. That's awesome! Thanks!
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Jan 17, 2023 16:47
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Cryte Lynn posted:She said the play was really cool; it was interactive so like, the orcs would come out into the crowd and razzle the patrons during the helms deep sequence, and the Ents were ppl on stilts striding around the crowd during the entmoot. Wish I could have seen it. Goddamn, that sounds awesome.
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Jan 18, 2023 01:28
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This post is not going to be anything anyone hasn't read before a million times, but I just wanted to write it out somewhere because whereas I spend hours rehearsing essays' worth of theses and speeches in my head, when it comes time to actually whip them out in an argument I just stammer and drool while my opponent clowns all over me and shouts until I give up, largely because I couldn't commit anything pithy to memory in a timely way. So this is just to help me do that; writing things out tends to make them more memorable to me (I can remember points I've made in posts I've written way more easily than I can remember things I was thinking about at 2am or on the treadmill). The subject is The Eagles. Specifically why they are not "a plot hole". As has been pointed out by many people, in-universe there's a perfectly good textual or subtextual reason for Gwaihir and friends to be able to swoop in at the nick of time to pick up Frodo and Sam, but not to have been able to just fly them to Mt. Doom in the first place: Mordor has an air force. The Nazgűl ride flying beasts and maintain air superiority. And that's a perfectly fine explanation, and the one Tolkien himself has espoused; but it's also not very satisfying to use in an argument against someone who doesn't know the story very well, or maybe has only seen the movies and thinks he knows the story well. Or even who does know it well but is determined to skewer it on shallow tropey narrative grounds. It's weak simply because the story itself never brings up that particular point, so at best it's a post-facto justification by nerdy partisan would-be defenders. Nobody who's pressing the point that "the Eagles are a stupid plot device and they ruin the whole mov—I mean book" will be impressed by some "well, technically" explanation about slipstream flux drives or self-sealing stem bolts. Instead what I'm trying to wear into a groove in my own head in preparation for the next inevitable time this comes up is that the Eagles are completely immaterial to the story. The story of Lord of the Rings is not foremost an action-adventure about how our heroes will get out of this scrape or the next scrape. It's a story about transcendence, about absolution, about redemption; it's about being offered absolute power, being tempted, and rejecting that temptation. The stakes of the story at its climax are much higher than "WILL FRODO LIVE". Whether he lives or dies is almost completely unimportant! In fact the story has by that point made the reader fairly well resigned to the idea that he might well die in the process of destroying the Ring, and it's made abundantly clear that if he does die, it's still a victory for the good guys. The fact that he does get rescued afterwards is basically just balm for the reader's soul, a way to keep the POV character alive longer to keep your spirits high in the denouement so the story can spend more time driving home what actually matters about his sacrifice, which is much bigger than a finger. Yes the Eagles are a deus ex machina, almost completely literally. What someone making that accusation misses is that that is not inherently a bad thing. It's a time-honored, well-respected narrative device dating back to the Greeks, and the term is seldom if ever used pejoratively when talking about serious theater. Tolkien is using it in its classical style, where the gods swoop in to intervene in the lives of the mortals in order to move the story along to a point where the moral can be revealed. He's using it to get our heroes out of danger so we can stop worrying about the tawdry, banal details like "oh no, lava  " and start concentrating on holy poo poo he threw away the Ring and saved the world! Well, Gollum helped! Oh drat he actually didn't really reject it did he. He claimed it and then it was torn out of his heart. This is going to gently caress him upIn short, for someone to say the Eagles "ruin the whole story" is really telling on himself more than anything—because it means he isn't arguing in good faith to begin with (especially if his idea of great fantasy literature is a chosen-one story about how some teenage rando gets godlike powers and can suddenly rule empires and direct armies and play intricate throne-room political games and also be the world's greatest sword fighter because he is just so awesome, and wins in the end because his power level is over 9000). If some Eagles appearing over the horizon is enough to make a story where the protagonist is unlikely, unassuming, reluctant, and ultimately fails at his task, yet succeeds because of faith and perseverance and the unwavering support of those closest to him, less interesting than that, then the Eagles themselves aren't really the problem. If there's a thematic through-line to LotR, to me at least, it's: The key to defeating Evil is to recognize that Evil's greatest weapon against us is the corrupting powers that we willingly grant unto ourselves. And that's a theme that in concept and execution stands up to some mechanistic point of happenstance that occurs after the resolution of the main plot of the story. Anyway. That's just some notepad.txt poo poo, please ignore Data Graham fucked around with this message at 14:09 on Jan 19, 2023 |
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Jan 19, 2023 13:17
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Data Graham posted:This post is not going to be anything anyone ha. Look sometimes when you're right about something you just gotta put it out there
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Jan 19, 2023 14:15
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You are correct about the eagles. I would say it is not dues ex machina although I agree it a fine device to use and the way it’s used pejoratively by tropes . Com people is annoying It’s not dues ex machina because the eagles do not resolve the central issue of the story (gollum / illuvatar do) and they are not unlikely. They have been in the story before.
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Jan 19, 2023 15:27
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You are entirely correct, but if you do need a more textual reason, they do address the idea of giving the Ring to an elflord or hero and its basically "if the Ring doesn't corrupt them Sauron will see them coming easily" and the Eagles are also not exactly just big birds. The are also powerful beings in their own right, and imo fall under the same category and the same concerns. You need the humble, overlooked Ringbearer or Sauron sees the Ring. Speed won't help. Even with Frodo as the Ringbearer, imo Sauron still finds him if Aragorn doesn't reveal himself in the Palantir and draw the attention E: vvv yeah forgot about the Valinor angle too. So in summary, the eagles are addressed in the council, twice, albeit not by name. Not only would they refuse for the same reason the Valar would (and so the council doesn't ask) but if they accepted for some bizarre reason it still wouldn't work for the same reason they don't give it to Glorfindel. Everyone involved in the council would know all of that, and so nobody brings it up after the above two classes are discarded as options. Ravenfood fucked around with this message at 16:54 on Jan 19, 2023 |
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Jan 19, 2023 16:10
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The Nazgul would shitwreck the Eagles. We can see from when Frodo is trying to enter Mordor that the Nazgul are constantly on the watch for any potential spies or other enemies wandering near Mordor's borders. So the Eagles carrying Frodo would certainly be spotted pretty quickly. And we know that Sauron watches all entrances to Mordor, so even if they tried to do something sneaky they'd be spotted. They also don't have limitless endurance, so how far could they even carry Frodo? And if they got attacked by Nazgul or archers, how could they defend themselves while trying to carry him? Also, they'd never even get close to Mordor before being spotted by Sauron's or Saruman's other spies. The Crebain spot the party as they're trying to cross the mountains. How quickly would they have spotted an Eagle carrying Frodo? Finally, there's also the fact that they never would agree to the plan anyways. They're divine servants of Mandos. The wouldn't take on the burden of the ring/quest for the same reason that the council shoots down the idea of giving the ring to the Elves and having them sail it to Valinor. We're told at the council that Valinor would say gently caress you and send the ring back because it's not their problem and not supposed to be.
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Jan 19, 2023 16:41
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Data Graham posted:Instead what I'm trying to wear into a groove in my own head in preparation for the next inevitable time this comes up is that the Eagles are completely immaterial to the story. The story of Lord of the Rings is not foremost an action-adventure about how our heroes will get out of this scrape or the next scrape. It's a story about transcendence, about absolution, about redemption; it's about being offered absolute power, being tempted, and rejecting that temptation. The stakes of the story at its climax are much higher than "WILL FRODO LIVE". Whether he lives or dies is almost completely unimportant! In fact the story has by that point made the reader fairly well resigned to the idea that he might well die in the process of destroying the Ring, and it's made abundantly clear that if he does die, it's still a victory for the good guys. The fact that he does get rescued afterwards is basically just balm for the reader's soul, a way to keep the POV character alive longer to keep your spirits high in the denouement so the story can spend more time driving home what actually matters about his sacrifice, which is much bigger than a finger.
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Jan 19, 2023 16:45
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Well yeah, I was trying to use hedging language, i.e. that's what the story is about, it's not necessarily what Frodo succeeds in doing 
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Jan 19, 2023 16:55
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going back in time to get Tolkien to more explicitly handwave away the Eagles in the Council of Elrond chapter
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Jan 19, 2023 19:25
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The Eagles are a Deus ex Machina like you say, but its not bad since they show up after the climax. If they had swooped in and took Frodo from Shelob's lair right to Mt Doom or something like that, then it would have been bad. That's the problem a lot of writers have in using a Deus. They would have used it to solve the big problem. Tolkien's use of it just skips over the tedious "How do they get back home now?" Basically, you're 100% right.
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Jan 19, 2023 19:31
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There's really no need to hand wave anything away. There's plenty of evidence in the story even without bringing it up that it'd be a terrible idea bound for failure.
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Jan 19, 2023 19:46
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Yeah, why are you even bothering to talk to anyone who witters on about how the Eagles not transporting the Ring ruins the whole story? Gaze at them with deep and withering contempt and go find someone interesting to talk to instead.
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Jan 19, 2023 20:12
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They are angels aligned with manwe not mandos Being so close to manwe I guess they are also very close to Illuvatar
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Jan 19, 2023 20:47
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Frodo and Sam could have died on the volcano and the story would be essentially the same. There would have been no book to read I guess
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Jan 19, 2023 20:49
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You could combine two types of annoying takes by declaring that everything post Orodruin is Sam's dying dream and Eagles aren't real
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Jan 19, 2023 20:57
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euphronius posted:Frodo and Sam could have died on the volcano and the story would be essentially the same. There would have been no book to read I guess Merry and Pippin, especially if Gimli or Faramir or something had been rolling with them, could have still roused the Shire, but it would have been stained as a result. Frodo kept that from happening, at least for now, and you deal with the cards you get dealt, not all the ones that might be drawn. e: Frodo also was generally saying "no come on we didn't kill each other before and we're not going to start now" while Pippin and Merry, while probably not eager to have a home town massacre, were a lot more hardened by their war experiences, and would have absolutely been OK with knifing a Sackville-Baggins or two. you even get an objective form of this grace with Sam's gift from Galadriel!
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Jan 19, 2023 20:58
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They didn't use the Eagles because they broke up, and nobody's gonna take the ring to Mordor in the back of Glenn Frey's van
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Jan 19, 2023 21:35
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Phy posted:They didn't use the Eagles because they broke up, and nobody's gonna take the ring to Mordor in the back of Glenn Frey's van Of course not, they'll use Eomer's sweet van.
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Jan 19, 2023 21:49
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That is epilogue stuff. Sure I guess. The climax of the entire novel tho is when gollum takes the ring and dies in the lava Spoiler warning
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Jan 19, 2023 21:58
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Phy posted:They didn't use the Eagles because they broke up, and nobody's gonna take the ring to Mordor in the back of Glenn Frey's van One of These Knights
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Jan 19, 2023 22:45
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You guys say the Nazgűl would kill the Eagles, but like what if the Eagles pulled a Top Gun Maverick and flew so low and fast through canyons that the Nazgűl couldn’t see their approach then they dropped the ring right into the tiny target of thr volcano caldera as they pulled up pulling 9 Gs…
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Jan 20, 2023 00:00
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All I have to add here is that there's a part in the Hobbit where it's mentioned that the Eagles are afraid of approaching the settlements in the Anduin Vale because the people there would shoot arrows at them. If some random human with a bow is a threat to an Eagle, I kind of suspect they get wouldn't get very far in the land of Mordor where the shadows lie.
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Jan 20, 2023 01:29
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