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Lurks With Wolves
Jan 14, 2013

At least I don't dance with them, right?

Covok posted:

It's really not a rip off of Masks.

It doesn't have 6 sliding labels, it uses static ability scores based around personality, for example. The only sliding label is the classes' internal struggle: Balance, two opposing principles where you eventually lose one entirely when you find out who you are.

Yeah. I'd definitely call it a refinement of Masks over a ripoff. Mostly because reading it helped me crystalize a lot of the issues I have with Masks. If you're curious, it's two main things.

1) Each playbook having a central issue that shifts instead of literally every stat makes it a lot easier to keep track of what each character is good at, and means you don't get into that weird situation where you want to find excuses for have authority figures call a character freakish because Freak is their main stat but it's gotten low lately and they're getting salty about it being that low for however long it'd take to get it back up normally. Of course, this scenario is only a problem because of my second main issue with Masks.

2) The main moves were trying to do too much in too compact of a space. Both Avatar Legends and Masks cover roughly the same three scenarios: emotional discussions between characters, big cool fights, and antics that draw on the mechanics for both emotional moments and fights. But Masks tries really hard to have a tight set of core moves, so each stat only has one or two moves attached to it to cover all of that, and that means you end up with stats like Savior whose only default move is "react to what someone else did to threaten something". And part of the point of high stats is that they prompt you on what you could do in a scene, because it's what you're going to be good at. But if your Masks character has, say, Savior and Mundane as their highest stats and they're in a fight, that prompting points to "talk to people" (which probably isn't super feasible fictionally) and "protect people" (which is entirely reactive).

Compare this to Avatar Legends, which both has more core moves and splits the combat focus into a separate subsystem with its own moves. That subsystem doesn't do a ton for me by itself, but it means the core moves have so much more space to cover emotional moments and general antics, and it gives you more prompting for what someone with your high stats can add to a scene. You may not want to take those opportunities because, for example, you don't want to intimidate the locals into telling you what's going on, but it gives you a better place to start.

(I admit, you can get around the worst of 2) with good GMing practices, but it still feels bad. Also part of my problem is that my biggest Masks game was a play-by-post, and the things you need to do to keep those moving are diametrically opposed to the kind of specific spotlight-bouncing you need to prompt people despite their stats being really unsuited to what's going on.)

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Lemon-Lime
Aug 6, 2009

Lurks With Wolves posted:

But Masks tries really hard to have a tight set of core moves, so each stat only has one or two moves attached to it to cover all of that, and that means you end up with stats like Savior whose only default move is "react to what someone else did to threaten something". And part of the point of high stats is that they prompt you on what you could do in a scene, because it's what you're going to be good at. But if your Masks character has, say, Savior and Mundane as their highest stats and they're in a fight, that prompting points to "talk to people" (which probably isn't super feasible fictionally) and "protect people" (which is entirely reactive).

The issue with this thinking is that misses and partial successes in PbtA are not character failures, they're actions that make more things happen, and things happening is interesting. There's few things worse with PbtA than playing a game where PCs have a +3 and some way of constantly rolling with it (through stat replacements or multi-stat moves like Defy Danger), because it means players roll strong hits way too often and far fewer interesting things happen on average.

Also, crucially, low stats in PbtA don't actually make your character narratively bad at whatever thing the moves that use those stats are tied to, because consequences can take any form the MC likes as long as they make sense in-fiction. There is zero requirement for the MC moves made in reaction to a miss on SBF/Directly Engage/Keep Them Busy/whatever to involve your character failing at whatever action they attempted; the character is only ever failing to accomplish their goal.

You can make a character with -2 Hard/Danger/Blood/whatever who is, narratively speaking, an excellent fighter. All you need to do this is describe that when they fight, they're failing to accomplish their goals for reasons other than a lack of personal skill, whether that's external factors like more enemies showing up, or deciding your character was acting on incomplete information and the situation isn't actually what they perceived, or even just being too good at fighting in a way that causes problems (too lethal, too much collateral, the enemy deciding you're a priority target, etc.).

Lemon-Lime fucked around with this message at 03:03 on Jan 15, 2023

Heliotrope
Aug 17, 2007

You're fucking subhuman

Lurks With Wolves posted:

Yeah. I'd definitely call it a refinement of Masks over a ripoff. Mostly because reading it helped me crystalize a lot of the issues I have with Masks. If you're curious, it's two main things.

1) Each playbook having a central issue that shifts instead of literally every stat makes it a lot easier to keep track of what each character is good at, and means you don't get into that weird situation where you want to find excuses for have authority figures call a character freakish because Freak is their main stat but it's gotten low lately and they're getting salty about it being that low for however long it'd take to get it back up normally. Of course, this scenario is only a problem because of my second main issue with Masks.

2) The main moves were trying to do too much in too compact of a space. Both Avatar Legends and Masks cover roughly the same three scenarios: emotional discussions between characters, big cool fights, and antics that draw on the mechanics for both emotional moments and fights. But Masks tries really hard to have a tight set of core moves, so each stat only has one or two moves attached to it to cover all of that, and that means you end up with stats like Savior whose only default move is "react to what someone else did to threaten something". And part of the point of high stats is that they prompt you on what you could do in a scene, because it's what you're going to be good at. But if your Masks character has, say, Savior and Mundane as their highest stats and they're in a fight, that prompting points to "talk to people" (which probably isn't super feasible fictionally) and "protect people" (which is entirely reactive).

In my experience, NPCs will usually be calling PCs by the label their playbook is about. The Legacy is going to have everyone pressuring them about being a good Savior, the Beacon is going to deal with comments about being too Mundane for the superhero life, and the Transformed will constantly be called a Freak because of how they look. The playbooks also have other moves that use the stats they're good at. The Legacy uses Savior, and they have: A move that lets them use Savior to Directly Engage; a move they can use when they Take A Blow from someone stronger then them; and a move that lets them use Savior to try and order NPCs around.

You can also move your stats around yourself. Rejecting Influence or a teammate using Comfort or Support on you lets you shift Labels on a 7-9, along with playbook moves that can shift stats and the end of session move. I'd also say a Mundane character in a fight can absolutely find uses for reading people and trying to emotionally help other people.

friendlyfire
Jun 2, 2003

Charmingly Indolent
I'm incredibly disgusted and unhappy tonight. I spent all day fiddle-loving with FoundryVTT to set up a character sheet for a homebrew game that would take me literally twenty minutes in a google spreadsheet (a few derived stats, add +1 to two different stats if they have a feat). Couldn't really get it working, so I probably need to go back to trying to import spreadsheet data into Foundry even though that was a total mess. Or write my own system out of whole cloth, which will give me javascript-induced hypertension.

Also, one of the modules that I wanted to use (to add some extra functionality) was broken. When I checked github to see if there was an easy fix, there was some kid who had a game tonight freaking out about it, so I forked the module and fixed it for them. While perhaps the nicest thing I have ever done, it was not very helpful for my goal of "character sheet with ten stats that does its own math". My prep time already exceeds the total hours we are likely to play and I haven't made a single map or anything. If I gripe at the foundry people they'll just say a lot of words that essentially reduce to "this is what you get for not playing one of the three games we actually support". I am eating from the garbage can, and I hate it.

Nuns with Guns
Jul 23, 2010

It's fine.
Don't worry about it.

Lemon-Lime posted:

The issue with this thinking is that misses and partial successes in PbtA are not character failures, they're actions that make more things happen, and things happening is interesting. There's few things worse with PbtA than playing a game where PCs have a +3 and some way of constantly rolling with it (through stat replacements or multi-stat moves like Defy Danger), because it means players roll strong hits way too often and far fewer interesting things happen on average.

Also, crucially, low stats in PbtA don't actually make your character narratively bad at whatever thing the moves that use those stats are tied to, because consequences can take any form the MC likes as long as they make sense in-fiction. There is zero requirement for the MC moves made in reaction to a miss on SBF/Directly Engage/Keep Them Busy/whatever to involve your character failing at whatever action they attempted; the character is only ever failing to accomplish their goal.

You can make a character with -2 Hard/Danger/Blood/whatever who is, narratively speaking, an excellent fighter. All you need to do this is describe that when they fight, they're failing to accomplish their goals for reasons other than a lack of personal skill, whether that's external factors like more enemies showing up, or deciding your character was acting on incomplete information and the situation isn't actually what they perceived, or even just being too good at fighting in a way that causes problems (too lethal, too much collateral, the enemy deciding you're a priority target, etc.).

"Think of the interesting roleplaying potential" of low stats was a sorry excuse when randomly rolling stat arrays and getting a lovely spread in D&D. It's still a bitter vinegar especially in a game where other players and the GM are regularly shifting your stats around. Maybe that does accurately emulate an impressionable teenager, but it sure stinks to have someone move a point into another stat just because two characters bonded in a session. Pushing your stats into a range where a best-case scenario is a partial success and a full failure is more likely doesn't feel good or fun.

Lemon-Lime
Aug 6, 2009

Nuns with Guns posted:

"Think of the interesting roleplaying potential" of low stats was a sorry excuse when randomly rolling stat arrays and getting a lovely spread in D&D.

This isn't "the interesting roleplaying potential," it's the fact that consequences from misses and partial successes are literally baked into the basic fabric of fail-forward, fiction-first game design and required for games built along those principles to work, and that said fabric works in a way that is explicitly designed to support a range of narrative meanings for mechanical failure (by divorcing mechanical failure from narrative failure). Part of treating your characters like stolen cars (or making their lives interesting, or whatever the specific verbiage is in any given PbtA game for this same principle) is recognising the fact that rolling 9 or less is the thing that leads to interesting things happening, instead of thinking "I, the player, rolled low, and therefore I failed."

Also not sure why you're conflating that with label-shifting in Masks, which is a separate thing to what I addressing.

e; and yeah, sure, MCs are always allowed to make moves when it would be appropriate, without relying on players rolling 9-, but it feels infinitely worse to "rob" players of a 10+ than it does to use a 6- or 7-9 to introduce a cool complication.

Lemon-Lime fucked around with this message at 17:15 on Jan 15, 2023

Lurks With Wolves
Jan 14, 2013

At least I don't dance with them, right?

Lemon-Lime posted:

The issue with this thinking is that misses and partial successes in PbtA are not character failures, they're actions that make more things happen, and things happening is interesting. There's few things worse with PbtA than playing a game where PCs have a +3 and some way of constantly rolling with it (through stat replacements or multi-stat moves like Defy Danger), because it means players roll strong hits way too often and far fewer interesting things happen on average.

Listen. I'm a massive PBTA nerd. I know. The ways the Masks core moves prioritize being small and tight just really made me appreciate how Apocalypse World was willing to have a separate page of moves that are mostly going to come up in combat. Being willing to give extra space for moves for a specific situation is something designers never really explored to its full extent in the later PBTA explosion.

Also, to just give more context to why I'm like this: I was playing the Janus, so I started with a stat at +3 which is objectively too high a stat to have when you have a starting character's amount of stats. And I had my Janus stat swap be between Mundane and Superior, which seemed like a good idea during character creation. I'd get to flip-flop between which kind of social interaction would fit best for the scenario, it'd be fun. And then the game I was in ended up having a few too many characters, as games that do SA-style recruitment tend to do, and then I got into some specific issues with the way Masks' core moves are set up.

The core issue, as I see it, is that Masks has multiple stats that are purely used for social interaction and getting an initial read on the situation. That works great in games like Apocalypse World and Monsterhearts and Urban Shadows and so on, because those are all games where players are going to stay in small groups for any given scene. Even if you're fully focused on being Sharp and Hot, the spotlight is going to bounce to you often enough that you're going to reach a point where you're pointing a gun at someone without having to stretch the scene out unnaturally. Masks is a game where a key part of the fiction is that you are a team, and the entire team is going to come together to fight a bad guy. This was especially a problem in the game I was in because... Well, there were six players, so we were splitting one fight six ways, but the problem is mostly a social dynamics thing that group size exacerbates. Namely, we all want to see our friends' characters do the things they were made to do, and we want to see them do it now because sessions can only last so long and we all have places to be. So, if you're like me, it's really easy to hang back and assess the situation and let the Freakish/Dangerous take the lead because you want to let them do their (big, flashy, scene-defining due to relative fictional positioning) thing, and then you realize you didn't do much superhero stuff that scene. Again, part of the problem is that this was a six person game so we could average two-ish rolls a person to make that fight not stupidly long and the GM was new to the system so the spotlight wasn't being bounced as much as it could have been. (Especially since it was PBP, so they were also worrying about putting the spotlight on one specific person lest the game stall entirely while waiting for them.)

To phrase it another way... If big superhero fights are going to be a mandatory part of the fantasy, your moves for said fights should be set up in a way where a character with any two given high stats can proactively help in the fiction. That's not to say every stat should contribute equally or in the same way, because the friction between "I am good at X" and "Y is best for how I want this scene to proceed" is really interesting. But as an example, in the final fight of the game I was talking about earlier, I had stupidly high Mundane, pretty good Superior and Savior, and -1 Danger and Freak. What can I proactively do in a superhero fight? Well, I didn't really have the fictional positioning to comfort or support any of the opponents mid-fight, and honestly supporting an ally didn't cross my mind in the moment but it isn't the coolest superhero thing. But that's one move for Mundane, what about my other stats? Well, there's Piercing the Mask with Mundane or Assessing the Situation with Superior, which could have given me prompts to be proactive with, but this was a very big game so other people already tried that and the fiction hadn't changed enough to justify someone rolling them again. There's Defending, but that move is fundamentally reactive and relies on other people establishing an immediate threat for you to protect against, and it's also the only thing Savior does out of the box. There's Provoking, and it honestly would have been a good action to go for if I was going to proactively do something I could feel good about. But... again, it was a game that was too big in retrospect so other people had already done a lot of provoking and I was out of ideas. That leaves directly engaging the threats and doing something weird with my powers, and either of those have a 60% chance of running into a robot-shaped wall and not actually accomplishing anything. And yes, I could have spent Team selfishly to shift my labels, but we earned three team for the entire fight and spending any for that felt too OOC selfish. (Especially when there's a 40% chance I'd roll badly enough that I'd have to drain at least half the pool to make it to a partial success in the first place.) It's much easier to hang back and let everyone else proactively do things, even if that's frustrating.

Again, part of this is that the game was flawed from the start. Six players split the spotlight too many ways, and the PBP "what do you (collectively) do" prompting style makes it significantly harder to bounce the spotlight manually. (Lager, if you see this, sorry for complaining so much about your game. It was a good attempt with a good cast of characters.) But I wasn't saying that Masks was bad. Because it's not, and I want to give it another shot some day. I said it was flawed, and those flaws will almost certainly be smoothed out in a theoretical second edition because they have been smoothed in Avatar Legends.

Lurks With Wolves
Jan 14, 2013

At least I don't dance with them, right?

Lemon-Lime posted:

This isn't "the interesting roleplaying potential," it's the fact that consequences from misses and partial successes are literally baked into the basic fabric of fail-forward, fiction-first game design and required for games built along those principles to work, and that said fabric works in a way that is explicitly designed to support a range of narrative meanings for mechanical failure. Part of treating your characters like stolen cars (or making their lives interesting, or whatever the specific verbiage is in any given PbtA game for this same principle) is recognising the fact that rolling 9 or less is the thing that leads to interesting things happening, instead of thinking "I, the player, rolled low, and therefore I failed."

Also, just to be clear, I am 100% agreeing that PBTA falls apart when you're only rolling your good stats. It's just way too easy to end up in a scenario where your stats are too lopsided to feel good to use in any given scene at all because the basic moves themselves are lopsided with how they spread focus* for the kind of game Masks is, and the only ways that that statline is going to change in the moment is either you spend a very limited resource or you hope the rest of your group recognizes that you're getting really salty IRL about how bad your rolls are and you keep blanking on what you can even add to this fight and go out of their way to build your stats up in a specific way.

Yes, you should treat your PCs like stolen cars, but you still want to feel like it's a good car. It's easier to move past those kinds of feelings when characters split up, just because there's less people to compare yourself negatively to in a given scene, but Masks is a game where a key part of the fantasy is the whole team coming together specifically to fight a big threat so it becomes more of an issue.

*Honestly, if you fixed Savior this would be much less of a problem. But when you have five stats and one of them is only used for reacting to already-established immediate threats mid-fight, it's a lot easier to feel like a dud. (Dangerous is also solely combat focused, but 1) directly engaging a threat is proactive, and 2) it's Dangerous, that's the point.)

Lurks With Wolves fucked around with this message at 17:23 on Jan 15, 2023

Zorak of Michigan
Jun 10, 2006


Nuns with Guns posted:

"Think of the interesting roleplaying potential" of low stats was a sorry excuse when randomly rolling stat arrays and getting a lovely spread in D&D. It's still a bitter vinegar especially in a game where other players and the GM are regularly shifting your stats around. Maybe that does accurately emulate an impressionable teenager, but it sure stinks to have someone move a point into another stat just because two characters bonded in a session. Pushing your stats into a range where a best-case scenario is a partial success and a full failure is more likely doesn't feel good or fun.

This conversation is making my bitter than the one Masks game I was going to be in never launched. Some of the people I have gamed with have strong opinions about wanting total control over their characters' internal lives, and others think it's absurd to let the player just decide that their character isn't going to be impacted by the things happening around them. The way Masks asks you to play someone who is still emotionally immature and then reflects that by having your attributes more around on you is interesting, if nothing else.

feedmyleg
Dec 25, 2004
What's an RPG combat system that makes you feel like you're playing a big 80s bombastic action movie? I'm open to any type of game, I'm just wondering what games and systems give you that vibe.

CitizenKeen
Nov 13, 2003

easygoing pedant

feedmyleg posted:

What's an RPG combat system that makes you feel like you're playing a big 80s bombastic action movie? I'm open to any type of game, I'm just wondering what games and systems give you that vibe.

The go to answer is Feng Shui.

Glazius
Jul 22, 2007

Hail all those who are able,
any mouse can,
any mouse will,
but the Guard prevail.

Clapping Larry

feedmyleg posted:

What's an RPG combat system that makes you feel like you're playing a big 80s bombastic action movie? I'm open to any type of game, I'm just wondering what games and systems give you that vibe.

Well, if you want some period pieces, Spirit of '77 is there minus a few years, Action Movie World is more targeted to the time frame, and Shadow of the Century is there for all manner of 80's cheese, explained by Variable Hyperdimensional Simultaneity that unlocks the more extraordinary parts of your power as things get weirder.

Serf
May 5, 2011


feedmyleg posted:

What's an RPG combat system that makes you feel like you're playing a big 80s bombastic action movie? I'm open to any type of game, I'm just wondering what games and systems give you that vibe.

You want FIST.

Runa
Feb 13, 2011

The beat way I've seen someone illustrate how fail-forward is meant to work is Disco Elysium

Succeeding every roll you make is one of the most boring ways to play because the funniest and most poignant outcomes generally come from failure

Vulpes Vulpes
Apr 28, 2013

"...for you, it is all over...!"

Serf posted:

You want FIST.

Whoa, this looks extremely cool, thanks

Nuns with Guns
Jul 23, 2010

It's fine.
Don't worry about it.

Lemon-Lime posted:

This isn't "the interesting roleplaying potential," it's the fact that consequences from misses and partial successes are literally baked into the basic fabric of fail-forward, fiction-first game design and required for games built along those principles to work, and that said fabric works in a way that is explicitly designed to support a range of narrative meanings for mechanical failure (by divorcing mechanical failure from narrative failure). Part of treating your characters like stolen cars (or making their lives interesting, or whatever the specific verbiage is in any given PbtA game for this same principle) is recognising the fact that rolling 9 or less is the thing that leads to interesting things happening, instead of thinking "I, the player, rolled low, and therefore I failed."

Also not sure why you're conflating that with label-shifting in Masks, which is a separate thing to what I addressing.

e; and yeah, sure, MCs are always allowed to make moves when it would be appropriate, without relying on players rolling 9-, but it feels infinitely worse to "rob" players of a 10+ than it does to use a 6- or 7-9 to introduce a cool complication.

Partial successes and fail forward mechanics in PBTA games are still built around the fact that on a neutral roll, you're most likely to get a partial success or better. It doesn't feel great when your primary move stats start getting pushed to 0 or below, and drag the odds of even getting a partial success down. Especially when that comes from things other players are doing to you. And yeah your could ask someone who's alright at "Comfort or Support" to help you trade some bonuses around, but requesting that kind of interaction feels very against a narrative-first approach to the game.

Especially when one of the end-of-session moves is to "grow closer to a teammate" leading to them getting Influence over you, or if they already have Influence then they get to shift your stats. It's a teen superhero game, so I'd expect the group to bond and cohere better as the story advances, and it feels weird to have to turn around after bonding with someone to ask someone else for a "Comfort or Support" action because that bonding moment pushed your +1 to a 0 or 0 to a -1. I'd say there's also an extra sting when it's player characters dealing those effects to you. Applying what's effectively a debuff is in the GM's domain, but when another player does it in most games it has a much most hostile vibe that's hard to shake.

Also, "Treating characters as stolen cars" is a misquote. The advice was "Treat your NPCs like stolen cars," and that has very different implications. On top of that, it's advice from Monsterhearts, which I would say is going for a slightly different tone and approach to PC to PC interactions and PC to NPC interactions. They're both teen drama games, but teen superhero stories tend to have a much stronger attachment to NPCs in their family and social circles. They're points of drama and tension, but it's a big deal when a teenager's parent, friend, or boyfriend/girlfriend is endangered or outright killed. Monsterhearts is going for messy romance/drama in the vein of Skins or Riverdale where love and violence are offered regularly with a cheap upfront cost and a nasty long-term price.

Zorak of Michigan posted:

This conversation is making my bitter than the one Masks game I was going to be in never launched. Some of the people I have gamed with have strong opinions about wanting total control over their characters' internal lives, and others think it's absurd to let the player just decide that their character isn't going to be impacted by the things happening around them. The way Masks asks you to play someone who is still emotionally immature and then reflects that by having your attributes more around on you is interesting, if nothing else.

I understand what it's going for but I don't think the execution is a pleasant-feeling mechanic. And I don't like the idea of it being some "woo maybe it's not supposed to feel great, like being a teenager in general~" because I think it shifts meta priorities in a way that does not put the narrative first when setting up meaningful character moments. Having a separate meter like Avatar Legends does to measure your internal conflict between your personal needs and the needs of the world around you feels like a way better execution of the same tension.

Magnetic North
Dec 15, 2008

Beware the Forest's Mushrooms

Serf posted:

You want FIST.

This sounds rad. Back in the day when we wanted to do a Hellboy/MGS type of game, we had to use Anime D20 :whitewater:

Splicer
Oct 16, 2006

from hell's heart I cast at thee
🧙🐀🧹🌙🪄🐸

Magnetic North posted:

This sounds rad. Back in the day when we wanted to do a Hellboy/MGS type of game, we had to use Anime D20 :whitewater:
Hey now, you could have used BESM

theironjef
Aug 11, 2009

The archmage of unexpected stinks.

You could have used anything. Games that purport to be "anime the roleplaying game" are horseshit. Do their rules animate at 12 fps or something? Anime is a medium, not a genre. You can use any sort of RPG to tell those stories.

Kwyndig
Sep 23, 2006

Heeeeeey


Splicer posted:

Hey now, you could have used BESM

Bad news for you champ, Anime D20 is BESM.

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010

HELL SERPENT
Lipstick Apathy
GURPS Action is a series of PDF genre books for GURPS that cover cinematic action film type settings. Good guys, bad guys, high stakes and firefights--this genre consists of, and is based in, a wide variety of subtypes. 1920s adventure pulps, gangster flicks, war movies, and even the Cold War-inspired spy subgenre all melt into the overarching genre that is action. From cowboys to cyberpunks, from Westerns to Wuxia.

PerniciousKnid
Sep 13, 2006

FirstAidKite posted:

IMO in cases like this the other players would greatly benefit from getting to take portions of control the GM would normally have so as to let the one big central character continue to be central and big but other players get to help define them.

If I actually had any will to commit to finishing it, that's what my tabletop rpg adaptation of JoJo's Bizarre Adventure would be like. Only one person gets to be JoJo but the rest get to fill in everything else, be it narrating/cheerleading during encounters, breaking out specific bits of trivia that are only useful in defining where they are right now, getting to choose the general where they go and how they get there, everyone contributing to make the focus the journey itself and the bizarre events that happen along the way leading up to the end.

I have absolutely no idea if any of that could be applied to a hypothetical Moby Dick ttrpg tho.

Sounds a little bit like The Wizard's Grimoire, which has one player (the titular Wizard) and two GMs.

The Bee
Nov 25, 2012

Making his way to the ring . . .
from Deep in the Jungle . . .

The Big Monkey!
How is Beacon as a system? I'm reading through the playtest so far and it seems to have bits of Lancer, Final Fantasy 14, and some PbtA systems built into it. Does it seem like a good Lancer-like for fantasy settings, or would it be better waiting for Icon?

Countblanc
Apr 20, 2005

Help a hero out!
i haven't heard of Beacon, but what makes a game a Lancer-like

S.J.
May 19, 2008

Just who the hell do you think we are?

Are there any RPGs out there where you're just Dwarves. Digging holes and smashing goblin skulls?

CitizenKeen
Nov 13, 2003

easygoing pedant

Countblanc posted:

i haven't heard of Beacon, but what makes a game a Lancer-like

It started as a Lancer hack, so it’s a modern tactical “boardgamey” RPG.

redleader
Aug 18, 2005

Engage according to operational parameters

CitizenKeen posted:

It started as a Lancer hack, so it’s a modern tactical “boardgamey” RPG.

a tttrpg

drrockso20
May 6, 2013

Has Not Actually Done Cocaine

S.J. posted:

Are there any RPGs out there where you're just Dwarves. Digging holes and smashing goblin skulls?

I have no recollection if it's any good but there's this game I bought on a random whim a couple years ago on DriveThru that fits your criteria;

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/227272/DWARVs-Military-SciFi-in-a-Fantasy-World?manufacturers_id=4960

Also probably only a matter of time before someone licenses Deep Rock Galactic to do an RPG for it considering it already has a board gane

PerniciousKnid
Sep 13, 2006

Countblanc posted:

what makes a game a Lancer-like

Being similar to dnd 4e.

Youremother
Dec 26, 2011

MORT

I thought those were Strike!-Like!s

Plutonis
Mar 25, 2011

drrockso20 posted:

I have no recollection if it's any good but there's this game I bought on a random whim a couple years ago on DriveThru that fits your criteria;

https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/227272/DWARVs-Military-SciFi-in-a-Fantasy-World?manufacturers_id=4960

Also probably only a matter of time before someone licenses Deep Rock Galactic to do an RPG for it considering it already has a board gane

Crazy there's not a DRG RPG yet, it would really lend itself well for explorations and diggy diggy hole while avoiding hordes of monsters.

S.J.
May 19, 2008

Just who the hell do you think we are?

Plutonis posted:

Crazy there's not a DRG RPG yet, it would really lend itself well for explorations and diggy diggy hole while avoiding hordes of monsters.

Avoiding :airquote:

Blind Azathoth
Jul 28, 2006
Dia ad aghaidh's ad aodaun... agus bas dunarch ort! Dhonas 's dholas ort, agus leat-sa!... Ungl unl... rrlh ... chchch...

S.J. posted:

Are there any RPGs out there where you're just Dwarves. Digging holes and smashing goblin skulls?

Mountain Home is a Forged in the Dark game about dwarves building up a settlement (reclaiming a fallen fortress, establishing a brand new home after an exodus, etc.) over the course of years. I haven't played it yet but it looks cool.

Magnetic North
Dec 15, 2008

Beware the Forest's Mushrooms

Kwyndig posted:

Bad news for you champ, Anime D20 is BESM.

It's funny, I was trying to find the books online, and later ones appear to have BESM branding, and I know I was aware of BESM at the time, but I don't know if it was actually BESM branded at the time. Maybe the GM called it something different because otherwise players would have declined.

90s Cringe Rock
Nov 29, 2006
:gay:

Magnetic North posted:

It's funny, I was trying to find the books online, and later ones appear to have BESM branding, and I know I was aware of BESM at the time, but I don't know if it was actually BESM branded at the time. Maybe the GM called it something different because otherwise players would have declined.

Tri-Stat d20 or something?

Magnetic North
Dec 15, 2008

Beware the Forest's Mushrooms

90s Cringe Rock posted:

Tri-Stat d20 or something?

Not sure. I don't recall having the 6 normal stats, or very much about the mechanics at all, but some of the powers my character had match the ones used in this SRD. Though if it's an adaptation then how they behave could be shared with the source.

Splicer
Oct 16, 2006

from hell's heart I cast at thee
🧙🐀🧹🌙🪄🐸

Kwyndig posted:

Bad news for you champ, Anime D20 is BESM.
BESM uses d6s and anyone who says otherwise us a tool of big d20 :colbert:

drrockso20
May 6, 2013

Has Not Actually Done Cocaine
So read through that DWARVs game I linked earlier, system is nothing special(though seems fine enough for essentially being a blend of "OSR influenced Fantasy Heartbreaker" with a touch of more "modern" style story games) but the setting and lore for the game(in particular that relating to the titular "dwarves") is fun and worth mining(pun intended) for use in a more interesting system(the main complaint I have is that the default fantasy world the book supplies is a tad schizophrenic, can't seem to make up its mind if it wants to be a generic fantasy setting, a slightly more gonzo one, or a "fantasy world that's actually just a post apocalyptic sci-fi world" one, I'd recommend taking the parts involving the dwarves themselves and whatever other bits from the game's Bestiary and magic items catalog you find interesting and stick them in another more well thought out setting(whether preexisting or homebrew)

Countblanc
Apr 20, 2005

Help a hero out!

Youremother posted:

I thought those were Strike!-Like!s

speaking of Strike!-Like!s, Jimbozig just published a game this morning that shares a lot of Strike's tactical combat DNA but objective-based. it's also his attempt at the "kids in a magical school solve magical mysteries" genre, so if either of those things sound cool i have a thread about it (and Strike/others) here: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=4022049

and heres a direct itch.io link https://jimbozig.itch.io/tailfeathers

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gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010

HELL SERPENT
Lipstick Apathy
https://twitter.com/mattcolville/status/1615091245520678912

Please I'm loving begging you just put Constitution out to pasture

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