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It really is crazy though how things like roman jurisprudence, infrastructure and similar ended up informing much of the development of western European history: so many of the "barbarian" successors to Rome adapted their societies to roman institutions. That's not even mentioning how so much colonization and the like was informed by how romans built forts, where they built forts and similar. Plus how the roman army and it's evolution and contact with germanic peoples directly lead to warfare in the medieval era. It's a shame our knowledge of punic civilization is so scarce or otherwise we could get up to some real theorycrafting here.
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Jan 16, 2023 03:11
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| # ? May 25, 2024 04:43 |
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yeah the plan for CK3 right now is that the coasts of Europe are gonna be a lot more developed (especially where our punic colonies ended up) than the interior, which'll be a lot more divided and diverse than OTL. There'll also be more republics, but the full extent of that will be subject to votes if anyone has more ideas as to how a Carthage-dominated Europe would've turned out, feel free to chuck them at me and i'll probably incorporate it somehow
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Jan 16, 2023 14:39
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hashashash posted:yeah the plan for CK3 right now is that the coasts of Europe are gonna be a lot more developed (especially where our punic colonies ended up) than the interior, which'll be a lot more divided and diverse than OTL. There'll also be more republics, but the full extent of that will be subject to votes Are we going to use a playable republics mod for ck3 or are we sticking with one of the monarchic colonies, assuming those exist?
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Jan 16, 2023 15:11
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Hannibalseatic League
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Jan 16, 2023 15:21
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Well there's not going to be any French around, since there's no Rome for the Franks to copy. And Christianity will not have the Roman state institutions to supplant and thus create a parallel administrative structure for later secular powers to leap frog off of. If we've got colonies or people trading in the Baltic, the Germans will probably pick up writing a bit faster since there's more use for it. Elder Futhark inscriptions date to the 100s or there abouts, so chances are they'll be cooking that up based more directly on our Phoenician script.
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Jan 16, 2023 15:21
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It'd be way too much work but a Mediterranean centered HCE (Holy Carthaginian Empire) could be interesting. 
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Jan 16, 2023 15:24
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shoehorning in an HRE equivalent seems kind of pointless honestly, unless someone has a good idea/reason beyond "lol, lmao".
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Jan 16, 2023 15:58
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I'm guessing Christianity will be more centered around the Middle East, since it's gonna pop up within the Ptolemite kingdom. No clue how that affects Islam in the future, though.
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Jan 16, 2023 15:59
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I think it'd be really funny to still have an active, angry, revanchist Roman Republic in central europe
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Jan 16, 2023 16:00
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Luca_024 posted:Are we going to use a playable republics mod for ck3 or are we sticking with one of the monarchic colonies, assuming those exist? it'll depend on the state of Punic colonies after the break between Imperator and CK3 -- if republicanism is still strong, then yep we could start as a republic. if the dark ages hit the Punic empire hard though, most Punic colonies will probably have fallen into tyranny and kingship eventually that said, could be interesting to play as a sole surviving republic if other Punic colonies (and possibly even Carthage) becoming kingdoms/empires hashashash fucked around with this message at 16:06 on Jan 16, 2023 |
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Jan 16, 2023 16:01
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ThatBasqueGuy posted:shoehorning in an HRE equivalent seems kind of pointless honestly, unless someone has a good idea/reason beyond "lol, lmao". I mean I have played 0 hours of CK3 but at least in CK2 (and EU4), Europe kinda needs the HRE just because its a big hosed up goliath in the center of everything that's fun to play around. Alternatively: two HRE equivalents
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Jan 16, 2023 16:21
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Yeah HRE is just fun imo. If im playing ck3 in the earlier start i try to fo console shenanigans to encourage ai to form it
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Jan 16, 2023 16:27
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Why wouldn't christian missionaries try to convert Carthage?
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Jan 16, 2023 16:29
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Poil posted:Why wouldn't christian missionaries try to convert Carthage? They can try, but unless Carthage also gets problems maintaning the social order because of cults inside it I don't think there would be much pressure to convert.
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Jan 16, 2023 16:33
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I mean, if we want something to be the hosed up mess that was the HRE in our timeline, the actual remnant of Rome is near to being in the right place for it...
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Jan 16, 2023 16:55
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I'm thinking Germanic peoples would have come down much earlier, as the dominant power (Carthage) would not have a particular interest in stopping them from displacing the population of the interior, so long as they continued to provide trade goods to the coastal colonies. Things like Visigothic Spain wouldn't have happened because that was a direct result of the Romans purposely pushing the Goths west. The Goths would have likely created a fairly strong state in Eastern Europe otherwise.
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Jan 16, 2023 18:32
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Luca_024 posted:They can try, but unless Carthage also gets problems maintaning the social order because of cults inside it I don't think there would be much pressure to convert. There are lots of reasons like the one you bring up that aided the spread of Christianity, but I think the novelty of having a personal relationship with God, salvation for your sins, a community based on loving thy neighbor, etc is all inherently compelling. E: there are lots of examples of forced conversion of populations who wanted no part of it, but I think the lack of foreignness in the Mediterranean cultural milieu makes Carthage more susceptible Sherbert Hoover fucked around with this message at 18:40 on Jan 16, 2023 |
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Jan 16, 2023 18:37
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Sherbert Hoover posted:There are lots of reasons like the one you bring up that aided the spread of Christianity, but I think the novelty of having a personal relationship with God, salvation for your sins, a community based on loving thy neighbor, etc is all inherently compelling. Oh definitely, I meant that as in the Carthaginian state probably wouldn't face the same pressures to convert. Chrsitianity spread because of the promise of eternal salvation after a lifetime of misery and a strong sense of community, yes, but it only became so dominant in Europe after being made the official religion of the Empire, and even that took a few centuries. Without that, we might have a more diverse spread of religions and a much less powerful Church.
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Jan 16, 2023 18:53
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Seeing a Christianity that isn't a dominate power but part of an intermingling of a bunch of polytheistic religions is really drat cool esp w the potential for syncretic poo poo going on similar to what we see in real life with saints.
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Jan 16, 2023 18:55
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Christianity is gonna be real fuckin weird in this timeline. My guess is some syncretism with Serapis and the cult of Alexander instead of Sol Invictus, and likely becoming the new de facto state sponsored cult of Ptolemaic Egypt. Lord knows they have enough underclasses that the Christian message would appeal to. Plus all the deviation from however the Ptolemies are treating Canaan compared to the Romans. Do they even crucify people there? Frankly it might be a boon to us, as someone upthread said. The Semitic population and their new messianic cult might have more common ground with us than all the Hellenized empires that have been fighting over the place for the last two hundred years.
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Jan 16, 2023 19:08
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Ptolemaic Egypt adopting Christianity and going Da Vinci Code two millennia early and proclaiming to be descended from the secret child of Jesus and Mary Magdalene, thus having a reason to keep their incest thing going
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Jan 16, 2023 19:30
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Rather than some of the syncreticism that Christianity had with Hellenic and Roman religion, we'll probably see Christianity adopt bits of Egyptian religion and hierarchy into itself instead
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Jan 16, 2023 20:39
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I don't think the Viking raids along the coast would happen at least not in Carthage controlled touched areas. The Vikings raiding more inland and setting up kingdoms along the major rivers seems more likely. This could be similar to the Kievan Rus, but in western Europe. I think eastern Europe and the black sea would be more Catholic than the Otl due to the inability of the christianity to spread through the Carthaginian empire.
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Jan 16, 2023 20:41
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Tiger Crazy posted:I don't think the Viking raids along the coast would happen at least not in Carthage controlled touched areas. The Vikings raiding more inland and setting up kingdoms along the major rivers seems more likely. This could be similar to the Kievan Rus, but in western Europe. I think eastern Europe and the black sea would be more Catholic than the Otl due to the inability of the christianity to spread through the Carthaginian empire. Those who raid are those who trade, so I suppose if we're taking for granted that Carthage is more promiscuous about trade with the Norse then we'd see less violent and more peaceful spread of their culture and norms.
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Jan 16, 2023 21:40
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One of the big things that I have to note is true here is that there is no big centralizing factor that a land based empire would give. Instead things like law codes, civil society, trade standards and building standards would be incredibly heterodox unless the carthaginian empire makes a concerted effort to rationalize and standardize across the colonies. This is not a good thing. Without these factors punic civilization is likely to splinter quite badly and colonies that are overcome may prove to have surprisingly little staying power when it comes to cultural influence. I think there should be some equivalent to the reorganizations roman society went through with punic civilizations: concerted efforts to create a single unit of weights and measures, for instance. The kind of stuff that happened both in Rome and China and helped build the idea of a place that survived past the original inhabitants.
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Jan 16, 2023 23:59
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I think if there was some sort of late antiquity game theory-crafting would be easier, but a lot of the Roman institutions that influenced the medieval era are from the Imperial period of Rome which sadly Imperator doesnt model
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Jan 17, 2023 00:37
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Xelkelvos posted:Rather than some of the syncreticism that Christianity had with Hellenic and Roman religion, we'll probably see Christianity adopt bits of Egyptian religion and hierarchy into itself instead the full extent of Christianity will be decided by votes once the last imperator update is done - but since it's spawning in a Ptolemy-dominated levant, yeah I can definitely see it melding and rejigging bits of Egyptian religion in addition to the Hellenic stuff Poil posted:It'd be way too much work but a Mediterranean centered HCE (Holy Carthaginian Empire) could be interesting. EU4 has a much better HRE system in place, so I'll be watching out whether any large empires form during CK3 that sorta fit the bill -- it could be Carthage, is the Punic Empire survives and grows larger. Just depends on how CK3 turns out tbh, which is impossible to tell at this point
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Jan 17, 2023 01:13
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More than just adopting bits of the Egyptian faith, I would have to assume that without Rome, the church would be far less uh, Catholic. Like, instead of one big unifying religion for most of Western Europe, I could definitely see most major regions having their own flavor of Christianity (provided Christianity even spreads to be dominant in the region–it very well might not). They'd probably be a bit more tolerant of one another than the usual heresies, if only out of sheer pragmatism, but then again, maybe not. The rise of Christianity is coded into the end of I:R, isn't it? (I've never played). I have some measure of doubt that the religion would have developed at all if the game didn't insist on it. In more geopolitical analysis, it'd be hard to overstate how different the world would be. We razed Rome before they conquered Byzantion, for God's sake. Plus there's the whole, uh, 800 or so years between the two games. I think any throughline between I:R and CK3 is not going to be straight-forward at all.
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Jan 17, 2023 02:21
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NewMars posted:One of the big things that I have to note is true here is that there is no big centralizing factor that a land based empire would give. Instead things like law codes, civil society, trade standards and building standards would be incredibly heterodox unless the carthaginian empire makes a concerted effort to rationalize and standardize across the colonies. That is in general a pretty good thing for a culture of traders to do, since it makes the actual trading so much easier.
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Jan 17, 2023 02:28
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Veryslightlymad posted:More than just adopting bits of the Egyptian faith, I would have to assume that without Rome, the church would be far less uh, Catholic. Like, instead of one big unifying religion for most of Western Europe, I could definitely see most major regions having their own flavor of Christianity (provided Christianity even spreads to be dominant in the region–it very well might not). They'd probably be a bit more tolerant of one another than the usual heresies, if only out of sheer pragmatism, but then again, maybe not. That observation reminds me of the massive effort it took for the Catholic Church to maintain any degree of dogmatic coherence. Who knows what the early Christian schisms would look like in this timeline, or what reach heresies like the Myaphysites, Nestorians, Arians and others would have?
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Jan 17, 2023 02:29
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Circumcellions rise up as the dominant Christian denomination of the Eastern Mediterranean. This will make diplomacy rather annoying, as they'll keep trying to be aggravating enough in every interaction that we're forced to violently martyr them
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Jan 17, 2023 02:46
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Everyone’s excited about Christ, but I think the teachings of Mani and Mazdak might go very far in this world, too.
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Jan 17, 2023 03:13
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On the subject of urbanization: cities in this period grow way larger than later ones for a very simple reason: the creation of large polities that can effectively control the importation and distribution of grain combined with sanitation engineering. The question is: do we have both of these things? The answer is kind of. We have north africa and sicily, which are huge producers, but we miss out on the single largest one of the ancient world: Egypt. On the one hand, this means Carthage never gets as big as Rome. On the other hand, this also means that the network of food production is more stable. This means that many of the cities of Carthage might remain more urbanized than they did in the Roman Empire, but never achieve the size the Roman cities did. However, reliance on seaborne infrastructure leads to a very nasty problem: plagues. They'll hit us, they'll hit us so, so bad. Also? It's far more easy to be independent when your road is the sea. Isolation between colonies will be a bad, terrible issue. But on the plus side, the onus on the sea means that germanic peoples will likely be unable to migrate to the british isles, meaning that england can never exist. Unfortunately, France is likely to happen much sooner because, as mentioned before, inland migration has no giant roman empire in the way to stop it, as we stick to the coasts.
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Jan 17, 2023 09:26
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Oh yeah, one big thing, one big, terrible thing: because of how colonies are administered in being self-governed and having their main point of contact being sea routes, when one of them decides they don't want to play ball, it's easy to stamp down. But when civil war breaks out? It's just as bad as roman style generals choosing sides. Maybe even worse. Imagine each city-colony declaring for itself and you can see how badly the whole thing can break.
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Jan 17, 2023 11:29
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Veryslightlymad posted:In more geopolitical analysis, it'd be hard to overstate how different the world would be. We razed Rome before they conquered Byzantion, for God's sake. Plus there's the whole, uh, 800 or so years between the two games. I think any throughline between I:R and CK3 is not going to be straight-forward at all. Imperator will wrap up around 150 CE and we'll start CK3 about 650 CE - so around 500 years, still an immense time difference. It would be conveniant if Paradox had a game in that period, but alas... I did think about porting it over to fallen eagle, but playing over a thousand years of just CK3 would be a nightmare. I also thought about stopping Imperator around 300 CE, but again it'll be a bit boring to just watch big powers blob for another couple hundred years so tbh I don't mind the break between games too much. it'll be different from the usual, so it's worth seeing how it turns out hashashash fucked around with this message at 16:57 on Jan 17, 2023 |
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Jan 17, 2023 16:53
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hashashash posted:I also thought about stopping Imperator around 300 CE, but again it'll be a bit boring to just watch big powers blob for another couple hundred years You could potentially use that time to game out conversion options without doing full fledged updates, maybe?
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Jan 17, 2023 17:08
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GunnerJ posted:You could potentially use that time to game out conversion options without doing full fledged updates, maybe? as in let the game run to see what might happen?
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Jan 17, 2023 17:11
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hashashash posted:as in let the game run to see what might happen? Maybe, or maybe a mix of that and just half-rear end playing (based on thread votes for the transition where appropriate/sensible) to see what develops.
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Jan 17, 2023 17:18
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GunnerJ posted:Maybe, or maybe a mix of that and just half-rear end playing (based on thread votes for the transition where appropriate/sensible) to see what develops. that's a solid shout yeah, I'll test it out and see what happens
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Jan 17, 2023 17:22
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'simulating the dark ages' is a good euphemism for running down time on these megacampaign games
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