|
Framboise posted:
It's not the "expectations," it's just a deeply unfun way to play the game.
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2023 14:23
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 6, 2024 08:28 |
|
|
I was making fun of the idea that a Magic format in which people use the best legal cards to try to win ahead of other considerations is somehow anti-Magic.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2023 14:34
|
|
|
Railing Kill posted:The cEDH players like their format and aren't going to change their minds. The casuals like their format and aren't going to change their minds. nobody in this thread likes anything
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2023 14:58
|
|
|
Heath posted:It's not the "expectations," it's just a deeply unfun way to play the game. I think you may just not like Magic. Try a different game.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2023 15:09
|
|
|
For real, if you feel like cEDH is "deeply unfun", then surely you can see, from a different perspective, how 4-hour long games that go loving nowhere because no one wants to attack into obscenely dense battlefields and oh no, here's the sixth boardwipe of the game, now nothing is happening because no one interacted with it can be just as deeply unfun. And somehow it's the only format where playing with the intent to win is somehow a bad thing.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2023 15:33
|
|
|
Heath posted:It's not the "expectations," it's just a deeply unfun way to play the game. How do you play Magic, then? What sort of deck would you bring to a Standard fnm?
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2023 15:35
|
|
|
I think the fundamental disconnect some people have with cEDH can be summed up as "If your goal is to win through very consistent, very powerful, lines of play, then why are you playing a format specifically designed to discourage consistency via it's deckbuilding restrictions?". However as someone who does enjoy cEDH, building a deck that works in spite of that is half the point.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2023 15:37
|
|
|
Framboise posted:For real, if you feel like cEDH is "deeply unfun", then surely you can see, from a different perspective, how 4-hour long games that go loving nowhere because no one wants to attack into obscenely dense battlefields and oh no, here's the sixth boardwipe of the game, now nothing is happening because no one interacted with it can be just as deeply unfun. And somehow it's the only format where playing with the intent to win is somehow a bad thing. I can see how cEDH can become uninteresting because the top X decks are some xUB pile and how EDH can be a fort builder. But there can be a balance between battle cruiser and demonic consultation/thassa's oracle. Playing to advance the board state should be the goal of any MTG deck.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2023 15:45
|
|
|
The constant 8th card in my opening hand, my commander, offers a degree of consistency that other formats lack. No matter what I draw I always have Korvold, so no matter what I draw, it's dinner for the dragon. I can have completely different draws of the 99 and yet the result is a consistent deck because it's all focused on big yums for my big boy.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2023 15:45
|
|
|
Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:How do you play Magic, then? What sort of deck would you bring to a Standard fnm? I don't play Standard and I don't play competitively so I wouldn't. I just play casual commander with a regular friend group. Framboise posted:I think you may just not like Magic. Try a different game. I do not understand why you take me not enjoying cEDH so personally.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2023 15:49
|
|
|
MasterBuilder posted:I can see how cEDH can become uninteresting because the top X decks are some xUB pile and how EDH can be a fort builder. But there can be a balance between battle cruiser and demonic consultation/thassa's oracle. Playing to advance the board state should be the goal of any MTG deck. This is the rub of it, every time I express that I don't enjoy cEDH I get obscenely bad faith responses like: Framboise posted:For real, if you feel like cEDH is "deeply unfun", then surely you can see, from a different perspective, how 4-hour long games that go loving nowhere because no one wants to attack into obscenely dense battlefields and oh no, here's the sixth boardwipe of the game, now nothing is happening because no one interacted with it can be just as deeply unfun. And somehow it's the only format where playing with the intent to win is somehow a bad thing. As if there are exactly two modes to this game, durdly battlecruiser where everyone plays chaos with 5 board wipes a round or "playing with winning as a goal" as if I play the game to lose on purpose. Like of course I play the game with the intent of winning, but when I sit down with my friends I expect to spend an hour or two in that game. I like seeing the variety and the personality in deckbuilding, which cEDH lacks by design. I don't like tweaking my deck to make sure I win 100% of the time, I like finding weird interactions and unconventional strategies and trying different things and experimentation. CEDH isn't conducive to that. Thus, I don't enjoy it.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2023 15:56
|
|
|
Railing Kill posted:The lesson in Serf's specific story is what we've also seen before: players need to have quick, simple conversations in good faith about cEDH vs casual, and shun players that defy the table agreement. I feel bad for that new player. Whoever let them sit down with a loving precon at a cEDH table (let alone cajoled them into buying it!) should get the cold shoulder from anyone who isn't an rear end in a top hat. If one of them was the TO, then go elsewhere. Demand better. Wouldn't you rather make do playing pickup games with pals over having a regular but toxic place to play? Tournament EDH, in any power level, sounds like a dumpster fire. All it takes is Just to be clear, the player was a returning Magic player who had already bought the precon because he heard that Commander was what most people are playing now. So he already owned it, the organizer did pressure him into playing though and that was lovely. Personally I just don't find cEDH fun. Nothing more to it than a gut feeling. During the games I've played I did not enjoy my time, and so that has turned me off to it.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2023 15:57
|
|
worth of prize support to make some players leave their ethics at the door and let poo poo like this happen. I know some folks have made tournament EDH work but it is probably awful more often than not.
|
Heath posted:This is the rub of it, every time I express that I don't enjoy cEDH I get obscenely bad faith responses like: Except... none of what you said is true? It's funny how you call what I'm saying "bad faith" because I'm very intentionally bouncing the energy you're putting into your posts right back at you-- so if you don't like the way I'm presenting my arguments, I do invite you to look inward for a moment. You say "every time I express that I don't enjoy it" but dress it up abrasively and dismissively every time it comes up.  But just to refute things anyway: - There is plenty of variety in deckbuilding and new ideas are coming out literally all the time. Yes, there are a few archetypes that see common play, but you see that literally loving everywhere, in pretty much every card game ever. I wouldn't demand you to know what they are, but it'd at least make sense to actually understand what you're talking about before fussing about it. If you can't see the variety and personality in cEDH decks and the way the people who play them, you're not paying attention. - When every deck is designed to reach a win as efficiently as possible, no one wins 100% of the time. In fact, if you are somehow managing higher than a 25% win rate, it's pretty drat impressive. Meanwhile there's way more swing in casual EDH where you cannot guarantee everyone is playing on the same level-- you end up with decks that are just built better that will absolutely win more often. That's literally the reason why I got into cEDH, because everyone had an agreed and level playing field. - There are plenty of weird interactions and unconventional strategies in cEDH. Hell, some of the most impressive decks were born from unconventional strategies that the general community said wouldn't be viable-- until someone built it and realized that it actually works really well. Again, you'd be aware of this if you were actually paying attention, but instead you keep making blanket statements that are just plain wrong, then call it "bad faith" when that exact same approach is sent back your way. Serf posted:Personally I just don't find cEDH fun. Nothing more to it than a gut feeling. During the games I've played I did not enjoy my time, and so that has turned me off to it. And that's totally valid, it's not for everyone just like battlecruiser isn't for everyone. There's even times when I'm not in the mood for cEDH. I've got decks built for pretty much every power level-- yes, even a battlecruiser deck (though it's really a pillowfort deck that requires little thought to play, lets everyone have their jollies and then bounces all of their alpha strikes back at them).
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2023 16:14
|
|
|
I don't agree with you. I'm not going to bother putting any more energy into it than that because we've already done this ten times and you're always super unpleasant and hostile about it. I don't like cEDH, it isn't fun to me. I'm allowed to express that opinion.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2023 17:01
|
|
|
Heath posted:I don't agree with you. I'm not going to bother putting any more energy into it than that because we've already done this ten times and you're always super unpleasant and hostile about it. I don't like cEDH, it isn't fun to me. I'm allowed to express that opinion. Why express it then if you don't want to discuss it? Should I mega man slide into the tviv power rangers thread to express that I don't get it, make dubious claims about it to support my stance, then get frustrated when I experience pushback, too? Why express your distaste if it isn't to convince others? That's kind of how public message boards work. An opinion stated here isn't just a neutral expression, it's by nature an argument for that opinion against others.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2023 17:45
|
|
|
Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:Why express it then if you don't want to discuss it? Should I mega man slide into the tviv power rangers thread to express that I don't get it, make dubious claims about it to support my stance, then get frustrated when I experience pushback, too? Why express your distaste if it isn't to convince others? That's kind of how public message boards work. An opinion stated here isn't just a neutral expression, it's by nature an argument for that opinion against others. I'm not discussing it any further.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2023 17:49
|
|
|
4+ hour battlecruiser games aren't really my thing either. I like about a good hour to hour and a half long game, enough time to see decks do their thing. Hell, right now my favorite decks are Feather, which wins using her to squeeze as much value out of my pump + cantrip spells and swinging for commander damage, and Miirym, which just goes brr with dragons unless stopped. The people I play with are generally on the same wavelength and I would say the local meta was sitting right in the middle of the power range until we started allowing proxies and now things are getting a little stronger. The big value for me in cEDH is that, like I said, it was what got people to really accept proxies (M30 also did a lot of work here too) and it gives the couple of players in the group with high-powered decks and inclinations an outlet for that stuff. So we're seeing less Thoracle combo nonsense in casual games which is nice.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2023 17:49
|
|
|
LanceKing2200 posted:I think the fundamental disconnect some people have with cEDH can be summed up as "If your goal is to win through very consistent, very powerful, lines of play, then why are you playing a format specifically designed to discourage consistency via it's deckbuilding restrictions?". If Commander was specifically designed to discourage consistency then they would have banned the cards that let you build highly consistent decks. I prefer my theory that Commander is a format designed to encourage permanent schisms in the player base because that generates an infinite stream of content and engagement. I don't think EDH was designed that way, but the ongoing design of Commander meets that brief pretty well
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2023 18:06
|
|
|
God, after an hour my interest starts waning. Then the wacky suggestions would start, likely instigating a house rule where everyone gets an "emblem" where they can pay 10 mana to sorcery speed tutor any non board wipe card. Or everyone gets a descent to avernus emblem. Don't need the treasures swap it for card draw instead. Whatever just get the game moving.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2023 18:19
|
|
|
Heath posted:This is the rub of it, every time I express that I don't enjoy cEDH I get obscenely bad faith responses like: Maybe don't do it so often that you're able to say this, op
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2023 18:28
|
|
|
Orange Fluffy Sheep posted:Why express it then if you don't want to discuss it? Should I mega man slide into the tviv power rangers thread to express that I don't get it, make dubious claims about it to support my stance, then get frustrated when I experience pushback, too? Why express your distaste if it isn't to convince others? That's kind of how public message boards work. An opinion stated here isn't just a neutral expression, it's by nature an argument for that opinion against others. Because he is probably sick of every single post critical of cEDH to be responded with the same "you're not playing the game right if you're not playing cEDH" nonsense. The cEDH folks make as many inaccurate assumptions about casual play as the non-cEDH folks do about competitive play, but there's more of them in here so the rest of us just kind of shrug as all the making GBS threads on casual play. Assuming every casual game lasts four hours is as laughable and wrong as a filthy casual assuming Thoracle wins every single cEDH game on turn two. There may be a mote of truth to both statements; these things can happen, but not necessarily. It's a matter of degrees that people replying to Heath just don't care to express. Like, my two normal groups are living proof of plsy-to-win casual. No one is playing cEDH decks but none of our games last more than two hours, and usually closer to 90 min.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2023 18:40
|
|
|
But that's not what he said. This is what he said: quote:Yeah cEDH makes no sense to me. It's like anti-Magic, like they took all the most unpleasant parts of the game and distilled them down to its most perfect form.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2023 19:05
|
|
|
Aphrodite posted:But that's not what he said. Which part of "I'm not discussing it any further" wasn't clear?
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2023 19:07
|
|
|
Alright, I don't even know what to trim/add to make this deck do much of anything: https://www.moxfield.com/decks/Jkna0iTe-UuzR0iykoC_8w Not cEDH, obviously. Anyone else brewing with the new Norn to make a passable deck? Heath posted:Which part of "I'm not discussing it any further" wasn't clear? You can feel free to just not comment on it if you're so inclined.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2023 19:09
|
|
|
Railing Kill posted:Because he is probably sick of every single post critical of cEDH to be responded with the same "you're not playing the game right if you're not playing cEDH" nonsense. The cEDH folks make as many inaccurate assumptions about casual play as the non-cEDH folks do about competitive play, but there's more of them in here so the rest of us just kind of shrug as all the making GBS threads on casual play. I think you're kind of missing the point here. Batterypowered7 posted:Alright, I don't even know what to trim/add to make this deck do much of anything: Looks pretty cool to me overall. Sword of H&H, Curio, and Preston are pretty sweet includes I hadn't considered. What exactly do you think it's missing? I'd say: Charming Prince Emeria Angel Captain of the Guard Luminate Primordial are kind of low-impact for their costs, considering they're pretty reliant on your commander being out to be particularly strong. I can definitely see the synergy you're going for with Cathar's Crusade, but it seems like you'd have to rely on that being present for it to really pay off. Not really sure what to recommend, but those are ones I personally would consider cutting.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2023 19:30
|
|
|
Batterypowered7 posted:Alright, I don't even know what to trim/add to make this deck do much of anything: Laz'eal (sp) acrobatics or eerie interlude as board wipe protection or mass flicker. Spirited companion 1W for 1/1 with etb card draw. Or to take it to a more venture/initiative route you could look at bwheelers hama pashar (UW) deck. You would lose some of the enablers but be able to go through multiple levels at once.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2023 19:48
|
|
|
Heath posted:I like seeing the variety and the personality in deckbuilding, which cEDH lacks by design. This is not true and enhances the perception that you don't know what you're talking about. Heath posted:I like finding weird interactions and unconventional strategies and trying different things and experimentation. CEDH isn't conducive to that. This is not true and enhances the perception that you don't know what you're talking about.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2023 20:00
|
|
|
Framboise posted:I think you're kind of missing the point here. Preston goes infinite if you flicker the Felidar Guardian (flicker a land, flicker the guardian with the illusion), without having Norn out. I was kind of looking for things like those you pointed out: low impact spells for the cost. I wasn't entirely sure I'd be able to close out games. MasterBuilder posted:Laz'eal (sp) acrobatics or eerie interlude as board wipe protection or mass flicker. Spirited companion 1W for 1/1 with etb card draw. I had considered Spirited Companion/Wall of Omens, but I wasn't sure if those were good enough or not. I'll take a look at the Hama Pashar deck and see if there's anything that interests me in there.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2023 20:18
|
|
|
I'm tired of reading the arguing and the slapfighting over Magic 30 in the main Magic thread, let's see what's happening over here in the comman--oh. Oh. Um. How about those Lisa Frank cards being announced for the February SLD?
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2023 20:27
|
|
|
 I'm definitely going to try this out.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2023 20:49
|
|
|
Toshimo posted:
Holy poo poo, a 3 for 1 for 2 mana? Sold.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2023 20:53
|
|
|
Framboise posted:Holy poo poo, a 3 for 1 for 2 mana? Sold. Choose one. Edit: Yeah I have a blindness where I can only read part of a card. It's actually really offensive to bring it up. /S MasterBuilder fucked around with this message at 21:08 on Jan 17, 2023 |
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2023 21:01
|
|
|
MasterBuilder posted:Choose one. Yes. You can kill three things for 2 mana. Each opponent sacrifices a [insert option here]. Assuming you have 3 opponents, that's 3 things potentially killed.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2023 21:03
|
|
|
Framboise posted:Yes. You can kill three things for 2 mana. Each opponent sacrifices a [insert option here]. It's an okay card, and definitely powerful in certain contexts, but unless you're leveraging this sacrifice in some way, trading straight cards like this isn't actually helping you. you're saying it's "3 for 1" but it's really 1:1 3 times, and given the nature of edh decks creatures are frequently more or less valuable to many decks. If this pops off and you have a mayhem devil or a zulaport cutthroat on board, that's amazing. If 2 opponents each lose a mana dork or a utility creature, say a llanowar elf and ragavan and the third loses a commander, yes that's probably a solid play; but there's definitely many potential board states where this card doesn't particularly hurt one person and doesn't really advance your game plan. The fact it's an instant makes up for a lot though.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2023 21:11
|
|
|
pseudanonymous posted:you're saying it's "3 for 1" but it's really 1:1 3 times ...How? It costs you 1 card. You don't have to sac anything.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2023 21:31
|
|
|
https://mythicspoiler.com/one/cards/atraxagrandunifier.html New Atraxa. Mentions card types "Artifacts, Battle, Creature, Enchantment, Instant, Land, Planeswalker, Sorcery." Looks like we might have a new card type incoming? Though that is a direct translation from the Spanish word "batalla", and "tribal" is nowhere in there. Also, Anointed Procession on a body https://mythicspoiler.com/one/cards/mondrakglorydominus.html
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2023 22:12
|
|
|
Batterypowered7 posted:https://mythicspoiler.com/one/cards/atraxagrandunifier.html First I thought maybe it was moved to/always was a supertype like Legendary, but seemingly no. How much you want to be this is a Tarmagoyf-esque thing where they reference a new type but it doesn't appear until the next set?
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2023 23:02
|
|
|
Heath posted:Which part of "I'm not discussing it any further" wasn't clear? Is this too long to be the thread title? Lol
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2023 23:14
|
|
|
Johnny Truant posted:Is this too long to be the thread title? Lol If only New Atraxa seems cool but I was hoping for something a little more mechanically unique out of her than card selection. I'm kind of hoping for a new legendary Rebel, or a return of the creature type generally. I would like a reason to use this secret lair Lin-Sivvi I got
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2023 23:28
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 6, 2024 08:28 |
|
|
Toshimo posted:
drat that's an edict worth playing. Very interested to see where this shows up.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2023 23:29
|
|
