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Boris Galerkin posted:and everybody was outraged for the wrong bad-faith reasons. This is a real stupid point
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Jan 17, 2023 22:39
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Admiral Joeslop posted:PF2e's Reddit page got a pretty big bump, whether that translates to more sales/players in the long-term who knows. When GW was making GBS threads the bed and cancelled Warhammer Fantasy, Mantic made noises about getting a big increase in players but either they didn't or no one stuck around. From the noises coming from PF2e groups, there's a lot of interest and exploration that doesn't necessarily equate to buying the books. There's also a ton of interest in Pathbuilder and free character generation tools. This is unsurprising because while D&D 5e actually improved the first time character generation process quite a bit by dividing it across multiple levels, PF2e went in exactly the opposite direction and requires you to make a bunch of key decisions before you can roll dice one. There's also a lot of LFG, which isn't always being successful. I'm counting that this is what Wizards are counting on to bring folks back into the 5e fold. I'm guessing this is a Reverse Birthday Paradox or something else related to numbers and combinations. On the other hand there seem to be people loving the extra options that are made available in early chargen.
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Jan 17, 2023 22:52
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hyphz posted:From the noises coming from PF2e groups, there's a lot of interest and exploration that doesn't necessarily equate to buying the books. Pathbuilder and that Archives of Netherys site seem like a pretty good starting point if someone wanted to get into Pathfinder. There's always going to be some issues, but it seems like it's a function of the system being more crunchy than 5e. There's also the pandemic making zoom or discord games a lot more popular/wide spread that's going to help a lot of people find a group to play with that's going to help anyone who wants to switch.
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Jan 17, 2023 23:03
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seaborgium posted:Pathbuilder and that Archives of Netherys site seem like a pretty good starting point if someone wanted to get into Pathfinder. There's always going to be some issues, but it seems like it's a function of the system being more crunchy than 5e. There's also the pandemic making zoom or discord games a lot more popular/wide spread that's going to help a lot of people find a group to play with that's going to help anyone who wants to switch. It is more crunchy, but it's also the number of decisions you have to make. D&D 5e changed things so that you only have to choose: - Your race - Your class - How you assign your ability scores (defaults given) - Your equipment (defaults given) Before you can get to the table at 1st level. For PF2e, you have to choose: - Your ancestry - To be a typical member of that ancestry or not - Your heritage or versatile heritage - Your first Ancestry Feat - Your background - Your class - Your class splat - Your first class feat - Your ability boost assignments - Your skill proficiency increases And not surprisingly, it's dividing people between the "wow, so much choice!" people and the "I have to do what?" people. But I think the Inverse Birthday Paradox problem is real. If there's 90 D&D players and 10 PF2 players, there are 2555190 possibilities for 4-player groups that can form from those 90 players (this obviously does not mean that number of groups could actually exist at once - it's the number of potential combinations), and only 210 possible 4-player groups for PF2. So the chance of finding "your group" among the potential PF2 groups is much worse than 10%. I tried playing around with the nCr formula:  If 50% of D&D players went to PF2, finding a PF2 group would be the same difficulty as finding a D&D group would be in that situation. But up until that point there's a vicious power-law distribution going on. If 25% of players play PF2, only 1.21% of potentially formable groups play PF2.
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Jan 17, 2023 23:37
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I'm surprised there aren't any default quickstart packages in PF2.
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Jan 17, 2023 23:44
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The simple character creation in 5e is honestly great.
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Jan 17, 2023 23:50
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Absurd Alhazred posted:I'm surprised there aren't any default quickstart packages in PF2. Each class has three sample builds that cover everything but ability scores and ancestry at level 1 and usually have recommendations up to level 4 or 6. Also, each core class has a recommended equipment kit at level 1.
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Jan 17, 2023 23:50
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hyphz posted:It is more crunchy, but it's also the number of decisions you have to make. That's true but it's also why D&D 5e characters are boring as poo poo and generic until 3rd level or so, because they're barely even a member of their class yet. PF2E also has explicit rules and recommendations around allowing 'retraining'. I have a friend who is running multiple 5e games for new players or even non-players you would call them I guess. He helps most of them when levelling and making decisions, and still has to do some hand holding during fights (many are level 6+ at this point). It's not that unlike what you might see on CR or other tabletop streams where the players are gamers and/or nerds but not really TTRPG players. It really doesn't matter that 5e is 'easier' than PF2, because they're barely going to learn 5e either, they learn the main actions and features they use regularly, and end up asking questions about everything else. They'll end up playing whatever he does. I think one of the things that matters most is that with D&D Beyond he can go in and inspect/tweak/update their characters easily. So a lot comes down to the tooling and how easy and low-effort it is for him to help them. That depends a lot on things. The pathbuilder developer has said they're working on shared editing of characters. Obviously the GM can do whatever they want inside Foundry VTT if you're using that.
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Jan 17, 2023 23:53
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One D&D from the playtest is getting a bit more complicated with more choices, but still has easy to pick defaults at all stages.
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Jan 17, 2023 23:55
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Roadie posted:Each class has three sample builds that cover everything but ability scores and ancestry at level 1 and usually have recommendations up to level 4 or 6. Oh. So is it hard to pick those on Pathbuilder?
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Jan 17, 2023 23:55
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hyphz posted:D&D 5e changed things so that you only have to choose: 5e also has backgrounds though? And skill options to select? And if you pick the right (or wrong, I guess) 5e class, then you also need to pick a subclass. Choose variant human and you can get a feat at level 1 as well - and from what I hear, most people prefer to just hand out free feats anyway at level 1. I'm not saying that PF2 is lighter than 5e or anything, but the difference between the two is not quite as stark as that IMO.
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Jan 17, 2023 23:59
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I'm actually starting a PF2e game in the next week or so. My first time GMing a campaign, and four of the five players have never played Pathfinder before. Two of them have never played a TTRPG before. I'm anticipating a lot of handholding in the early stages. Basically I'm going to offer people the chance to do a 1 to 1 on developing the character if it's all just mystifying. And thankfully my DM from my regular 5e game is one of the players and he's already doing a little bit of "deputy GM" stuff just in helping people out.
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Jan 18, 2023 00:01
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Oh. So is it hard to pick those on Pathbuilder? You have to enter the builds yourself, but you can add/buy the recommended equipment pack as a single item.
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Jan 18, 2023 01:35
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Roadie posted:Each class has three sample builds that cover everything but ability scores and ancestry at level 1 and usually have recommendations up to level 4 or 6. Here's what they look like in the book:   Absurd Alhazred posted:Oh. So is it hard to pick those on Pathbuilder? Not terribly.
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Jan 18, 2023 02:15
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Roadie posted:Each class has three sample builds that cover everything but ability scores and ancestry at level 1 and usually have recommendations up to level 4 or 6. Wow, weird that hyphz would just skip over useful information that undermines the point he was trying to make
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Jan 18, 2023 02:23
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Tarnop posted:Wow, weird that hyphz would just skip over useful information that undermines the point he was trying to make Of course, the process of using a prebuilt character is the same in D&D 5e, PF2e, or pretty much game.
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Jan 18, 2023 02:30
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Megazver posted:Here's what they look like in the book: also if you're thinking "wow that's a lot of ability scores that's not helpful at all" PF2e gives you four increases to different scores at once and they even out over time except for your absolute primary ability score which is the only one that gets super huge. so it fits perfectly!
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Jan 18, 2023 02:35
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hyphz posted:Of course, the process of using a prebuilt character is the same in D&D 5e, PF2e, or pretty much game. 
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Jan 18, 2023 02:36
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D&D5e is all about the lowest common denominator and a path of least resistance. If pazio can release a 2.5e that simplifies certain things, then they'd be cooking
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Jan 18, 2023 03:09
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miniscule12 posted:D&D5e is all about the lowest common denominator and a path of least resistance. Which certain things do you mean?
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Jan 18, 2023 03:59
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PF2E would benefit from a condensed "How to build a character quickly!" document that includes all pre-built lists in a single place. I'd order the steps slightly differently: - Open Pathbuilder - Pick a class. What's the primary stat? You're going to set that to 18, keep it in mind. Put your Class boost there - Pick an Ancestry. Thanks to the update, you get two boosts. Put one in your main stat, put the other wherever - Pick a background that looks fun. Put one boost in your main stat, put the other wherever - Place your four free boosts: One to you main stat, the other three as you feel like - Select level 1 feats and skill training, see the prebuilts if you want ideas - Buy the Kit of your Class, add any weapons/armor that you would like - Something something spells something (I'm not usually a spellcaster) - Play! Use BitD logic to buy equipment that you realize you would have already had on your person - Don't like it after the session? Respec! - Start looking at L2 and above for later build ideas
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Jan 18, 2023 04:15
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Choose a class; boost the main stat; boost the main stat; boost the main stat; boost the main stat.
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Jan 18, 2023 06:11
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honestly you could kill most skill feats in pf2 and make the neat ones remaining into archetypes with some poached class features and you'd be just fine. if you need to fill in the dead levels, play with free archetype rules and have the free archetype levels be on your odd levels instead of skill feats.
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Jan 18, 2023 06:22
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Plutonis posted:aahahahahahahahahahah Update on this. Namely he can't show anything tomorrow like he planned. https://twitter.com/DnD_Shorts/status/1615446591166623744
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Jan 18, 2023 06:27
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a month lmfao ahahahaha
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Roadie posted:Which certain things do you mean? character options, options in combat, options for roleplaying, thin out the setting too
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Jan 18, 2023 06:36
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MonsterEnvy posted:Update on this. Namely he can't show anything tomorrow like he planned. lol
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Jan 18, 2023 06:42
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MonsterEnvy posted:Update on this. Namely he can't show anything tomorrow like he planned. Pure speculation here but the line about accuracy makes me think he jumped the gun on the $30 sub stuff. I’ll wait for Linda or another journalist to come out with the news. The tweeting he did at Crawford was weird.
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Jan 18, 2023 06:48
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Not so sure about DnD Shorts. These are neither comfy, nor easy to wear.
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Jan 18, 2023 06:54
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Theoretically if they were going to do a content subscription, it wouldn't necessarily need to be new content that Wizards produced. They could use 3rd party content from DM's Guild, the same way Humble Bundle, Playstation Plus, or other video game subscriptions work. In fact if you want to get really  about it then under OGL 1.1 as leaked they wouldn't even need to pay the creators or get permission, since that license seems to grant them control of OGL 1.1 content.
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Jan 18, 2023 07:30
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https://twitter.com/newbiedm/status/1615509867950911496?t=uWrlCWL04H1OxpYiV9IeVw&s=19 That's gotta be MtG. No wonder the execs saw D&D as undermonetised.
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Jan 18, 2023 10:32
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Splicer posted:Yeah it's going to be heartbreaker city but you know what I'm here for that. If we get some good stuff out of it great, if not we'll have some laughs. 
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Jan 18, 2023 11:37
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Has anyone ever actually sat down, wrote and posted an eloquent case for "death to attributes" that one could link to, say, to Matt? If not, what would be in it?
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Jan 18, 2023 12:06
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Megazver posted:Has anyone ever actually sat down, wrote and posted an eloquent case for "death to attributes" that one could link to, say, to Matt? If not, what would be in it? "You're doing design backwards. Attributes and other kinds of ratings associated with the character only need to exist when there's a system in the game that cares about a character's rating in something. Design the systems first, then figure out which characteristics need to be defined for a character. If you design the character sheet before you design the game, you'll be fumbling in the dark, trying to fit a square character sheet into round game mechanics."
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Jan 18, 2023 12:40
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Haha I saw this on twitter and I admit I've been waiting to see what your reaction was. Megazver posted:Has anyone ever actually sat down, wrote and posted an eloquent case for "death to attributes" that one could link to, say, to Matt? If not, what would be in it? Matt has said he's very open to feedback, community collaboration, blah blah blah, so I agree this should be done.
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Jan 18, 2023 13:08
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Finster Dexter posted:Matt has said he's very open to feedback, community collaboration, blah blah blah, so I agree this should be done. Based on his follow-up tweets in that thread, I wouldn't be hopeful. "Two equal columns of stats means you can pick one out of each and boom, you've got character creation" and "we have a secret reason for six stats ssshh no spoilers" is not something that stirs confidence. https://twitter.com/mattcolville/status/1615228568812019713?t=TdDTklFLHXGRLBF16rpgiA&s=19 Lol good to know there's some real thought going into "rename the six Abilities". Edit: https://twitter.com/mattcolville/status/1615523257956040704?t=BBhqcvdGF6qYjkqC7Nkb7w&s=19 Has anyone in RPGs ever thought of opposed rolls? DMs are open for feedback! That Old Tree fucked around with this message at 13:47 on Jan 18, 2023 |
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Jan 18, 2023 13:43
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gently caress it, steal from Kingdom Of Loathing and base everything on Muscle, Mysticality, and Moxie.
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Jan 18, 2023 13:50
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That Old Tree posted:Based on his follow-up tweets in that thread, I wouldn't be hopeful. "Two equal columns of stats means you can pick one out of each and boom, you've got character creation" and "we have a secret reason for six stats ssshh no spoilers" is not something that stirs confidence. 
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Jan 18, 2023 13:54
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Lamuella posted:gently caress it, steal from Kingdom Of Loathing and base everything on Muscle, Mysticality, and Moxie. I’ve used Moxie as a stat before, in a game I was working on years ago. It’s as good a measure of ability as any other, plus it has some pizazz to it.
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Jan 18, 2023 13:54
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That Old Tree posted:Based on his follow-up tweets in that thread, I wouldn't be hopeful. "Two equal columns of stats means you can pick one out of each and boom, you've got character creation" and "we have a secret reason for six stats ssshh no spoilers" is not something that stirs confidence. for the record: Das Schwarze Auge (Arkania or The Dark Eye) has had opposed rolls since the 90s, and my recollection from back then: combat drags out too long
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Jan 18, 2023 14:15
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Goa Tse-tung posted:for the record: Das Schwarze Auge (Arkania or The Dark Eye) has had opposed rolls since the 90s, and my recollection from back then: combat drags out too long Oh, I remember that one. It was published as "Uno sguardo nel buio" here in Italy in 89.
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Jan 18, 2023 14:18
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