|
I don't think other countries should consider German inter-party conflicts, no. And I don't think they do.
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2023 13:46
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 18:45 |
|
|
MonikaTSarn posted:I don't see how saying they didn't officially apply for an export license is an excuse. You wouldn't send the official request at all unless you know it's going to be allowed. Are the other countries really expected to cause a diplomatic quagmire and hope germany's coalition doesn't break apart over it simply because Scholz is to scared to say yes himself ?
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2023 13:49
|
|
|
Vincent Van Goatse posted:I'm not sure there is much if anything left of the M60 stock. Most of them were, last time I checked, dumped into the Gulf of Mexico for artificial reefs. Plus they've been out of US service for 30 years at this point so even if we had enough of them you'd have to call in a bunch of long-retired graybeards to instruct Ukrainians. It might actually be easier to get the DOD to cough up old M1s. I was kind of assuming that M60 sourcing would be through 3rd parties. Aren’t the Egyptians still using a bunch?
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2023 13:58
|
|
|
Dick Ripple posted:According to the BBC that is not the case. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-64329059 This article is not adding new information the the articles referenced in the conversation so far, please be more attentive.
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2023 14:05
|
|
|
MonikaTSarn posted:I don't see how saying they didn't officially apply for an export license is an excuse. You wouldn't send the official request at all unless you know it's going to be allowed. Are the other countries really expected to cause a diplomatic quagmire and hope germany's coalition doesn't break apart over it simply because Scholz is to scared to say yes himself ? Normally people, and countries, ask about things they can’t do on their own. And this is the lowest possible cost thing too - just force Germany to repeatedly say “no we won’t give Ukraine tanks”, if that’s what’s up, and make them eat PR poo poo off the snow shovel.
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2023 14:07
|
|
|
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/sweden-send-infantry-fighting-vehicles-ukraine-2023-01-19/ SWE is gonna send UKR ~50 IFVs and ~12 SPGs. Archer is really, really nasty system when employed correctly.
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2023 14:43
|
|
|
MonikaTSarn posted:I don't see how saying they didn't officially apply for an export license is an excuse. You wouldn't send the official request at all unless you know it's going to be allowed. Are the other countries really expected to cause a diplomatic quagmire and hope germany's coalition doesn't break apart over it simply because Scholz is to scared to say yes himself ? Yeah, this attempt by some to spin a 'poor sweet innocent Germany' routine is grating. You absolutely don't formally submit such requests if you believe the answer will be "No". This is fundamentally a political issue and will only be resolved politically, not by bureaucratic processes. That's why political statements like Poland's are being made (of course, its absolutely also due to it playing well with their base) - to put the issue on the table. Germany cannot hide behind a bureaucratic process. It cannot claim it is ignorant of the fact that the US, UK, Poland, Baltics, etc, want them to allow Leopard 2s to be sent. They don't need a copy of form REQ/12141/4242/B submitted in triplicate to know this! These political statements put pressure on Germany to engage in behind the scenes political discussions, during which Germany can discretely signal it will be OK with allowing Leopard 2 operators to send their tanks to Ukraine. The appropriate form will then promptly be correctly filed. Yes, Poland and others are enjoying poking Germany. But this is a political question not an administrative one.
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2023 15:04
|
|
|
Tigey posted:Yeah, this attempt by some to spin a 'poor sweet innocent Germany' routine is grating. Thing is that it should cost zero to force Germany to put the “no” in writing. There's no good reason to not force their hand on that.
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2023 15:07
|
|
|
Unless these offers to send material were unserious posturing without any intent to follow up
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2023 15:17
|
|
|
Tigey posted:Yeah, this attempt by some to spin a 'poor sweet innocent Germany' routine is grating. The reason they are not asking is not because Germany will say "no, you can't send your tanks against Russia", it is because Germany will say "yes, we don't object to you doing what you said you want to do".
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2023 15:19
|
|
|
I suspect antigravitas is right and that the holdup at this point is that Ukraine getting western tanks will be a big thing announced more or less all at once as a way of diffusing the responsibility for what Russia will perceive as a significant escalation. Also discussion of that is definitely going to be on the agenda at the coming ramstein meeting and I would not expect to hear anything new and definitive about western MBTs before then. The sheer amount of pro-Ukraine sentiment throughout Europe right now makes me think a tank deal is likely sooner than later if the US does decide to provide M1s in any event, we don't have to wait long. we'll know more by the weekend. Herstory Begins Now fucked around with this message at 10:14 on Jan 20, 2023 |
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2023 15:44
|
|
|
Szarrukin posted:Are we gonna "misplace" 100 tanks near our border with Ukraine again? Pictures dozens of tanks slowly rolling off the back of flatbeds, then sliding slowly, oh, so slowly down a gentle slop and across the border...
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2023 16:01
|
|
|
Whoa: https://mobile.twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1616085644257947649
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2023 16:06
|
|
|
The UK is going to ship another 600 Brimstone 2 missiles to Ukraine. I wonder how much of this is "it's what we've got' and how much is success based demand. They're great kit but being fired out the side of a civilian soft sided truck isn't their designed setup....
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2023 16:34
|
|
|
Pablo Bluth posted:The UK is going to ship another 600 Brimstone 2 missiles to Ukraine. I wonder how much of this is "it's what we've got' and how much is success based demand. They're great kit but being fired out the side of a civilian soft sided truck isn't their designed setup.... I dunno poo poo about poo poo, but I doubt transport of the launcher matters too much as long as the targeting is good. Brimstone technicals seem like a great way to get cheap and mobile AT assets.
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2023 16:38
|
|
|
Not shipping ammo for a system that was previously delivered would be a bit silly, though.
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2023 16:39
|
|
|
Obviously we don't have the full details of what's being achieved, but the assumption is that they will have to use them in their auto target acquisition mode and with considerably less range when ground launched. When they've been used by the RAF, they're coupled with the plane for much more operator control over what they target. I'm assuming that in Libya/Iraq/Afghanistan/etc the RAF have always known exactly what they want to got with each firing. Wheras I assume this is a sign their automatic target selection is working well in realworld combat (and not hitting junk too often. Can it tell an active tank from a burnt out shell?) Edit: ultimately it seems to be good news for Poland who were the first to finally buy in to them as surface-to-surface weapons https://www.army-technology.com/analysis/fire-and-brimstone-polands-new-tank-destroyer/ Pablo Bluth fucked around with this message at 17:06 on Jan 19, 2023 |
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2023 16:53
|
|
|
It's a pretty big deal domestically yeah. Those pieces were intended to fill a gaping hole in Denmark's military capabilities. No doubt that Ukraine has more urgent need of them however.
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2023 17:00
|
|
|
As an outside observer to European politics, it does feel like there's a lot of buck passing around. Can somebody explain if there are any clearer way to signal support that are deliberately not being used for "reasons?" I think I get that nobody has filed any proposals, but also Germany hasn't signaled that it would approve such requests publicly? Would it even be legal for Germany to pre-approve all requests?
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2023 17:06
|
|
|
Vincent Van Goatse posted:I'm not sure there is much if anything left of the M60 stock. Most of them were, last time I checked, dumped into the Gulf of Mexico for artificial reefs. Plus they've been out of US service for 30 years at this point so even if we had enough of them you'd have to call in a bunch of long-retired graybeards to instruct Ukrainians. It might actually be easier to get the DOD to cough up old M1s. The Marine Corps just recently got rid of all their M1A2 Abrams. It was in the hundreds I believe. They are not as advanced as the Abrams the army uses so they would be perfect to give to the Ukrainians. Logistical issues notwithstanding.
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2023 17:10
|
|
|
WarpedLichen posted:As an outside observer to European politics, it does feel like there's a lot of buck passing around. The German vice-chancellor literally said publicly a week or two ago that Germany should approve such requests.
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2023 17:16
|
|
|
Anti missile systems being placed on top of buildings in Moscow https://mobile.twitter.com/taxfreelt/status/1616105495915368449 https://mobile.twitter.com/bayraktar_1love/status/1616081111351980032 Reminder that the "security concerns" justifying the invasion were that if Ukraine joins NATO, there will be missiles based there that will have a very short flight time to Moscow I wish the insane grandpa had therapy instead of materialising his fears and anxieties and killing possibly hundreds of thousands in the process
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2023 17:19
|
|
|
Don't worry: they're Pantsirs. They won't hit poo poo
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2023 17:32
|
|
|
Really afraid of small drones, huh.
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2023 17:33
|
|
|
Somaen posted:Anti missile systems being placed on top of buildings in Moscow We all assume that Ukraine isn't stupid enough to directly attack Moscow. Assuming we are correct, is this Putin and Moscow actually being scared, or trying to drum up internal fear to fight unrest about the multiple rounds of mobilization?
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2023 17:33
|
|
|
How long until the building collapses, either under an inappropriate load placed on the roof or Putin false flags it?
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2023 17:38
|
|
|
Pook Good Mook posted:We all assume that Ukraine isn't stupid enough to directly attack Moscow. Assuming we are correct, is this Putin and Moscow actually being scared, or trying to drum up internal fear to fight unrest about the multiple rounds of mobilization? Russian leadership has been mainlining their own propaganda for so long, I don't think that distinction exists or is meaningful. The image of plucky Russia under siege by NATO homonazis is as much a creation of propaganda that must be reinforced by public display, as it is sincerely held belief.
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2023 17:40
|
|
|
Does it even make sense to put them on top of buildings? Looks like something from a strategy game.
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2023 17:40
|
|
|
Yeah, if you want a line of sight to the targets that isn't through someone's bedroom window.
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2023 17:42
|
|
|
Paladinus posted:Does it even make sense to put them on top of buildings? Looks like something from a strategy game. Absolutely not unprecedented. Compare: https://www.bunker-kiel.com/luftverteidigung-kiel/leichte-flakstellungen-ugruko-271-kiel-mitte/milchforschung/ You see those little turrets around some of the surviving buildings. They typically featured light flak or illumination.
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2023 17:50
|
|
|
Putting air defense around Moscow isn't a dumb decision. You never know. It does rather underline what fuckhead liars they are though - if they had actually believed in even a single word of their bullshit about Ukraine posing a threat, they would have stood up air defense ages ago.
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2023 18:07
|
|
|
How likely is putting up air defences in Moscow just theatre for the domestic market? "Oh, look how serious the threat of the hostile NATO backed Ukraine is, join up today!"
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2023 18:12
|
|
|
Pook Good Mook posted:We all assume that Ukraine isn't stupid enough to directly attack Moscow. Assuming we are correct, is this Putin and Moscow actually being scared, or trying to drum up internal fear to fight unrest about the multiple rounds of mobilization? What's stupid about attacking Moscow, with its command centers and logistics hubs? Is it another red line not to be crossed or else Moscow will go super Saiyan or use nukes? The russian military sees it as a credible threat so they have to spread their air defenses thin. The embarrassment of the strategic bombers bases being attacked is remarkable, hitting Moscow would be even more spectacular with people filming and putting that stuff online even if it gets shot down
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2023 18:13
|
|
|
Somaen posted:What's stupid about attacking Moscow, with its command centers and logistics hubs? Is it another red line not to be crossed or else Moscow will go super Saiyan or use nukes? "Red line" or not, killing civilians in downtown Moscow is going to reflect extremely badly on the Ukrainians. I know it's a double-standard, but I just can't envision they will open up that possibility, even if there are "military" targets in the city. There's no reason to do it, especially when Ukraine's public position is that they have a problem with Russia's military and leaders, not its people.
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2023 18:32
|
|
|
Maybe Puts is worried from attack from within?
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2023 18:38
|
|
|
Pook Good Mook posted:"Red line" or not, killing civilians in downtown Moscow is going to reflect extremely badly on the Ukrainians. I know it's a double-standard, but I just can't envision they will open up that possibility, even if there are "military" targets in the city. Based on the contents of the occasional addresses of the Ukrainian leadership to Russians the people, I do not believe that this is Ukraine's public position
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2023 18:41
|
|
|
Burns posted:Maybe Puts is worried from attack from within? A SAM can’t stop someone from busting into your bedroom in the early morning hours and hauling you away to a gulag where you’ll be shot
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2023 18:52
|
|
|
Antigravitas posted:Absolutely not unprecedented. The Tories put surface to air missile batteries on council flats during the 2012 Olympics London 2012: Missile tower block tenants drop legal bid London rooftops to carry missiles during Olympic Games Extracts from the MoD leaflet posted:Will having missiles on our building make us a target? Having a 24/7 armed forces and police presence will improve your local security and will not make you a target for terrorists. Hmmm Enjoy fucked around with this message at 18:59 on Jan 19, 2023 |
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2023 18:56
|
|
|
Lot's of silver linings here; shows Putin's level of paranoia, takes precious SAM systems both away from the frontline and away from the actual targets like oil depots and airfields that Ukraine has been hitting in Russia. If it's a concern over an internal threat that's even better for Ukraine, though also a terrifying implication. But it would probably also be a waste, if Russia is going to splinter most of the threat will be from the ground, I don't see air battles over Moscow being a major thing even in the craziest of scenarios. So yes thank you Putin for putting several million worth of high-end equipment where it will be useless to you.
|
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2023 19:14
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 25, 2024 18:45 |
|
|
https://twitter.com/EricSchmittNYT/status/1615903757769875456 Is any of this really new? It's just the administration admitting that Ukraine may have to target Crimea. It even says that Biden is still not ready to give them the necessary long-range missiles yet https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1615799793816637464 Willo567 fucked around with this message at 19:39 on Jan 19, 2023 |
|
#
?
Jan 19, 2023 19:35
|
|
