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BiggerBoat posted:I can't gather why so many voters like this idea and it's a really stupid and elementary way of thinking about "fair". I dunno, seems like you've gathered it pretty well there. Edit: this is a terrible snipe. Here's one of my cats:
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# ? Jan 22, 2023 20:07 |
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# ? Jun 8, 2024 17:45 |
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BiggerBoat posted:I'm all in favor of simplifying the tax code somehow but this Fair Tax poo poo and, worse, the people in my income bracket who support it, infuriate me. I can't gather why so many voters like this idea and it's a really stupid and elementary way of thinking about "fair". The idea isn't just "fair", but "simple". Fair Tax-style proposals point out legitimate issues that ordinary people have with the current tax system (the complexity, the perception that people need to hire tax preparers, the perception that the wealthy loophole their way into paying far less than they owe), and then lie and claim that their proposal will solve all those issues. As for the fact that they're usually blatantly regressive, these kinds of proposals usually claim they'll come with a compensation program such as a universal basic income that'll cover much of the impact on low-income workers. On top of that, they usually deploy other common anti-tax rhetoric to sell the idea that the current tax system is less progressive than it seems. For example, FairTax proponents claim that even people who seem to pay no income tax are actually paying tons of "hidden taxes" in the form of having corporate taxes passed down to them in the form of higher prices. Here's some snippets from the FairTax website that show how it handles such arguments: quote:Will corporations get a windfall with the abolition of the corporate tax? quote:Why is the FAIRtax better than our current system? quote:How does the FairTax affect wages and prices? You can see that it relies heavily on trickle-down reasoning to insist that income taxes are inherently bad for workers and the economy, claiming that taking money from the rich only serves to hurt the job creators and pass down price increases to consumers. There's a lot of little contradictions in it, but people won't notice unless they're actively looking at it with a critical eye. And most FairTax believers are primed for it by conservative media, since the organization pushing FairTax has close ties to conservative interests (and also to Scientology).
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# ? Jan 22, 2023 20:11 |
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On the Fair Tax topic this was a pretty interesting jaunt back through history (always like reading background stories like this) and it has some insight into the interplay between the political factions. (Also like the "we're all capitalists now" moment.) https://twitter.com/TimothyNoah1/status/1616470992095789056 quote:Go Ahead, Republicans, Pass a National Sales Tax -Blackadder- fucked around with this message at 20:57 on Jan 22, 2023 |
# ? Jan 22, 2023 20:42 |
There are few phrases I less wish to read than "Joe Biden is licking his chops." I'm not sure how solid the comparison that the author's making is; we're in a pretty different place right now compared to the 1980s, and the argument he's making is based on one "celebrity economist" arguing for such a tax. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 20:56 on Jan 22, 2023 |
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# ? Jan 22, 2023 20:53 |
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Discendo Vox posted:There are few phrases I less wish to read than "Joe Biden is licking his chops." I don't think it was written to be disparaging. The alternative Fed option was pretty brutal after all.
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# ? Jan 22, 2023 21:01 |
-Blackadder- posted:I don't think it was written to be disparaging. The alternative Fed option was pretty brutal after all. Sure, but it's not clear that it was a widely held position at all, going from the article.
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# ? Jan 22, 2023 21:26 |
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Of course, the FairTax wont do anything about use fees that affect *checks notes* the bottom 90% of the income distribution.
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# ? Jan 22, 2023 21:35 |
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-Blackadder- posted:On the Fair Tax topic this was a pretty interesting jaunt back through history (always like reading background stories like this) and it has some insight into the interplay between the political factions. (Also like the "we're all capitalists now" moment.) I'd look into the Sagebrush rebellion, especially since its the movement that gave rise to Reagan in 1980. Compare to the creation of national parks by ancient Republicans.
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# ? Jan 22, 2023 21:56 |
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BiggerBoat posted:I'm all in favor of simplifying the tax code somehow but this Fair Tax poo poo and, worse, the people in my income bracket who support it, infuriate me. I can't gather why so many voters like this idea and it's a really stupid and elementary way of thinking about "fair".
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# ? Jan 22, 2023 22:40 |
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-Blackadder- posted:On the Fair Tax topic this was a pretty interesting jaunt back through history (always like reading background stories like this) and it has some insight into the interplay between the political factions. (Also like the "we're all capitalists now" moment.) I wouldn't go so far as to call it a musical-chairs. Reducing consumption is generally accepted to be a way to counter inflation. Thurow's proposal was that instead of having the Federal Reserve intentionally force a recession, a VAT (he drew heavily from the example of European social democracies) would be able to reduce consumption in a less destructive manner while producing government revenue that could be put to some useful purpose. It's also worth remembering that the income tax was much higher then. At the time, the tax rate on the top income bracket was 70%, and Thurow was concerned that the tax system wasn't progressive enough due to things like the capital gains tax being lower. That led to a bunch of other radical proposals from him, such as ending the corporate tax and instead directly taxing shareholders on the profits of companies they owned. The entire 1981 article is available online for free, if you want to see some of the things he suggested and how he argued for them. I can't say all of it was good ideas, and a lot of it certainly looks out of place these days, but it's understandable when considering the context: that he was arguing against Reagan's economic policies and trying to provide alternatives that would accomplish the claimed goals better. https://www.theatlantic.com/past/docs/unbound/flashbks/taxes/thurowf.htm
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# ? Jan 22, 2023 23:38 |
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Would a flat consumption tax not just allow people to dodge taxes by buying things overseas?
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# ? Jan 23, 2023 00:17 |
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Mechafunkzilla posted:Would a flat consumption tax not just allow people to dodge taxes by buying things overseas? Which is an option only readily available to the rich as a permanent option, yes. Are you really surprised that the Republicans are proposing something that is even easier for the rich to skirt around?
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# ? Jan 23, 2023 00:22 |
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Mechafunkzilla posted:Would a flat consumption tax not just allow people to dodge taxes by buying things overseas? It’s common for wealthy people to do this in countries with prohibitive consumption taxes or middle class people that are close to the border so for example Brazilians flying to Florida to purchase electronics, Vancouver punjabis driving to the Costco in bellingham Washington to take advantage of American dairy subsidies, American diabetics traveling to Europe for insulin. Americas a big country and airline travel here’s expensive so normally you wouldn’t do it to buy groceries or freaky anything less expensive than our ludicrous medicine prices, but 30% is high enough that it would actually become a concern especially ]for big ticket items.
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# ? Jan 23, 2023 00:25 |
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I’m just picturing 30% more on a new car purchase going over really well with everyone.
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# ? Jan 23, 2023 00:39 |
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A delightful headline for a brief bit in the Washington Post about Mike Pence's dismal favorable ratings: Mike Pence sits alone in a corner of sadness
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# ? Jan 23, 2023 00:43 |
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Main Paineframe posted:The entire 1981 article is available online for free, if you want to see some of the things he suggested and how he argued for them. I can't say all of it was good ideas, and a lot of it certainly looks out of place these days, but it's understandable when considering the context: that he was arguing against Reagan's economic policies and trying to provide alternatives that would accomplish the claimed goals better. Thanks, I felt like the first article was nuanced by perhaps not the headline. One thing I found interesting was the counter-culture movement backed Dems espousing thrift and anti-consumerism vs the 80's yuppie Patrick Bateman Republicans doing the opposite. You can really start to see how the cultural factions impacted the parties at the time. Here's a few articles that seemed interesting I came across looking into Thurow (he was quite the character) that provide some more context. Drafting a Democratic Industrial Plan - 1983 The Man with all the Answers - 1990 How Democrats killed their populist soul - 2016 -Blackadder- fucked around with this message at 01:27 on Jan 23, 2023 |
# ? Jan 23, 2023 00:59 |
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During the 90's there was a short lived luxury tax on certain items bought in the US that rich people circumvented by just buying big ticket items out of country. Under a 30% national sales tax the top end of the spenders would just do the same thing and effectively put more of the tax burden on those that don't have the option of just buying stuff out of country.
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# ? Jan 23, 2023 01:36 |
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Timmy Age 6 posted:A delightful headline for a brief bit in the Washington Post about Mike Pence's dismal favorable ratings: Desantis that far in the upper left is concerning
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# ? Jan 23, 2023 01:42 |
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bird food bathtub posted:One of the above is Trump, and one of the above is not.
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# ? Jan 23, 2023 02:06 |
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Discendo Vox posted:There are few phrases I less wish to read than "Joe Biden is licking his chops." What would you prefer he be licking instead?
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# ? Jan 23, 2023 02:11 |
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This bill will probably be quickly forgotten soon after it loses, but I really, really hope the GOP campaigns on silly poo poo like this 30% sales tax
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# ? Jan 23, 2023 02:27 |
Kith posted:What would you prefer he be licking instead? your chops or corn pop's
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# ? Jan 23, 2023 02:32 |
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Discendo Vox posted:your chops or corn pop's This has nothing to do with politics but I just realized corn pops have completely disappeared in all the supermarkets around me.
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# ? Jan 23, 2023 02:39 |
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Buckwheat Sings posted:This has nothing to do with politics but I just realized corn pops have completely disappeared in all the supermarkets around me. Thanks,
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# ? Jan 23, 2023 02:41 |
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bird food bathtub posted:The part about classified documents that is being very purposefully misrepresented by assholes like Fox is that the actual fuckup isn't generally what gets you in trouble, because it's usually just a fuckup. It's the coverup, or lying afterwards, or pretending it didn't happen. There are entire offices dedicated to tracking down sources, locations, and potential end points of accidentally mishandled classified information. That is their entire job. All true and fair enough but god help most of us if we punch in 7 minutes late or call out sick from our poo poo jobs without a doctor's note. There's a lot of stuff at my job that requires me to take certain things rather seriously but I'm not the President of the loving United States either and this is starting to seem like The Secret Files are nothing more than post it notes and 16th generation typewritten Xerox copies of poo poo that people just toss in their "I'll get to it" pile next to the box of photo albums and unread Dean Koontz paperbacks in their garage that they'll get around to unpacking after a move. How is all of this poo poo just laying around next to a plastic tub of cleaning supplies and copies of electric bills from 7 years ago where no one at all is tracking any of it? Jesus Christ I take better care of a 1099 I received for $1000 worth of side work last year.
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# ? Jan 23, 2023 02:49 |
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BiggerBoat posted:
Sad part is that you're more likely to get in trouble for misplacing that and not reporting it than they are.
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# ? Jan 23, 2023 02:53 |
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Fart Amplifier posted:Desantis that far in the upper left is concerning Cherry on top: The Dem's Florida operation is a complete poo poo show. https://twitter.com/MariannaReports/status/1617225149476147205 quote:'There is no plan. There's nothing': Florida Democrats in despair over future. Gerund posted:I'd look into the Sagebrush rebellion, especially since its the movement that gave rise to Reagan in 1980. Compare to the creation of national parks by ancient Republicans.
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# ? Jan 23, 2023 03:31 |
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-Blackadder- posted:DeSantis is like heroin for the Republican base. To be fair, at this point "giving the gently caress up and ceding Florida to the oncoming ocean" is a winning strategy for the Dems
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# ? Jan 23, 2023 03:35 |
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BiggerBoat posted:There's a lot of stuff at my job that requires me to take certain things rather seriously but I'm not the President of the loving United States either and this is starting to seem like The Secret Files are nothing more than post it notes and 16th generation typewritten Xerox copies of poo poo that people just toss in their "I'll get to it" pile next to the box of photo albums and unread Dean Koontz paperbacks in their garage that they'll get around to unpacking after a move.
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# ? Jan 23, 2023 04:32 |
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The plan here is obvious. Just fuckin' fight. Yeah OK, maybe Florida is not federally competitive, maybe you are trapped deep within dark red chudlandia. OK, fine. loving fight, we assume every year that the Alabama state elections are going to be lost every year with about 30% voting for the not-crazy candidate. That sucks, but I still expect those voters to show up.
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# ? Jan 23, 2023 04:48 |
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As DNC chair, Howard Dean made Wyoming competitive and came within a fraction of one percent of turning it over to Democrats. It's not impossible. A lot of this rode on the fact that Cubin was flakey as gently caress for even attending sessions and people just being tired of her.
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# ? Jan 23, 2023 05:50 |
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Of course you still get problems with red state Democrats repeatedly going all in on demonstrably failed strategies when they DO try. Are they still trying to run that ex-Republican that everybody hates? And trying to get the 'Castro took grandma's slaves away' vote at the expense of all else?
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# ? Jan 23, 2023 06:02 |
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Rigel posted:The plan here is obvious. Just fuckin' fight. Yeah OK, maybe Florida is not federally competitive, maybe you are trapped deep within dark red chudlandia. OK, fine. loving fight, we assume every year that the Alabama state elections are going to be lost every year with about 30% voting for the not-crazy candidate. That sucks, but I still expect those voters to show up. The DNC has no interest in actually fixing the issue of leadership and instead we just get random grifters running the party into the ground. Then they consistently keep running ex-Republicans for office and then act surprised when the voters don't show up.
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# ? Jan 23, 2023 06:02 |
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Star Man posted:As DNC chair, Howard Dean made Wyoming competitive and came within a fraction of one percent of turning it over to Democrats. It's not impossible. Sadly Howard Dead as DNC chair and the 50 State Strategy was, like 2008-era Obama, a once in the lifetime of a country aberration that will never come again because the entire Democratic Party system will never again allow such a radical thinking maverick with ideas like "Actually loving run and invest everywhere like you can win there" come to power again.
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# ? Jan 23, 2023 06:27 |
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nine-gear crow posted:To be fair, at this point "giving the gently caress up and ceding Florida to the oncoming ocean" is a winning strategy for the Dems I know it's just a dumb joke but please keep in mind that the majority of people in Florida probably don't deserve to die.
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# ? Jan 23, 2023 06:35 |
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It's really hard to find non crazy people who are willing to drop whatever they've been doing and spend six months campaigning for state office (with all the schmoozing, cold call fundraising, and media digging through your life that involves) if the race is unlikely to be anywhere close to competitive. Being a serious candidate is an large amount of work
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# ? Jan 23, 2023 08:52 |
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Fart Amplifier posted:Desantis that far in the upper left is concerning Is he the competent fascist that will come after Trump that people were warning about? Seems like that was a fairly accurate prediction
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# ? Jan 23, 2023 09:04 |
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Why was Dean ignored by the Obama administration, anyway? That never made any sense to me, especially after his success actually making races competitive. It was like he was just exiled or something.
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# ? Jan 23, 2023 09:09 |
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nine-gear crow posted:Sadly Howard Dead as DNC chair and the 50 State Strategy was, like 2008-era Obama, a once in the lifetime of a country aberration that will never come again because the entire Democratic Party system will never again allow such a radical thinking maverick with ideas like "Actually loving run and invest everywhere like you can win there" come to power again. Obligatory reminder that at least half of the reason why is that today's Democratic voters don't have as much taste for the Blue Dogs that strategy produced, and the ones it did produce got wiped out in midterms for daring to support Obama's far-left agenda. As ever, discussing Democratic strategies while disregarding both Democratic (especially primary) voters and the people who actually want to put their own time and money into running for major office tends to make for really incomplete analysis. Killer robot fucked around with this message at 09:14 on Jan 23, 2023 |
# ? Jan 23, 2023 09:12 |
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# ? Jun 8, 2024 17:45 |
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Solkanar512 posted:Why was Dean ignored by the Obama administration, anyway? That never made any sense to me, especially after his success actually making races competitive. It's because he made that funny scream.
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# ? Jan 23, 2023 09:18 |