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This game needs a mandatory tutorial on how to tank before you're allowed to pick tank in comp. Especially if they're not going to allow other players to pick up the slack by only having one tank.
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Jan 24, 2023 10:16
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No it's fine, it doesn't matter how they play tank, they will find their appropriate skill level so your games are all evenly balanced. This thread taught me.
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Jan 24, 2023 11:28
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overwatch is a game where 10 people are throwing the entire game but one team throws somewhat less and ends up winning. this doesn't significantly change until probably mid gm, maybe higher
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Jan 24, 2023 11:58
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trying to play less badly is a more useful thing to focus on than individual wins or losses
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Jan 24, 2023 12:00
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SadisTech posted:No it's fine, it doesn't matter how they play tank, they will find their appropriate skill level so your games are all evenly balanced. This thread taught me.
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Jan 24, 2023 12:51
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there's also no such thing as an "op" character, everything is perfectly balanced and it's entirely due to skill. any idea that you can get more value with less effort from specific characters? why that's just an illusion.
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Jan 24, 2023 12:56
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The issue comes from when certain roles are more impactful than others. It doesn't matter how good you are when the single important player on your team is dragging everyone down with them, and while a dps player that's way better than their team can potentially solo carry with certain characters, a support player cannot.
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Jan 24, 2023 12:57
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of course some characters are better than others, but a 2800 rated orisa is going to give you a similar chance to win the game as a 2800 rated ball main on your team assuming no glaring map or team comp issues your tank that seems to be doing dumb poo poo all the time is more likely than not giving you an even chance against the enemy tank who is also doing dumb poo poo all the time
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Jan 24, 2023 13:03
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comedyblissoption posted:of course some characters are better than others, but a 2800 rated orisa is going to give you a similar chance to win the game as a 2800 rated ball on your team assuming no glaring map or team comp issues I like your fantasy world where everyone has correctly assigned at birth mmr. I wish I could live there.
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Jan 24, 2023 13:04
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Jack Trades posted:I like your fantasy world where everyone has correctly assigned at birth mmr. I wish I could live there. also that people only play one character at all times, just an entire game full of one-tricks who never move up and down in rankings
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Jan 24, 2023 13:09
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Honestly it sounds to me that you just get tilted the moment someone has a bad game/bad matchup and then being tilted you throw your own games. Like yeah, some games aren't winnable. Welcome to competitive gaming. If you truly believe you're playing perfectly and your tank isn't, please hit me up with a replay, i'll happily show you every mistake your entire team is making.
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Jan 24, 2023 13:56
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Things have felt more toxic lately, almost every match has 1-2 people raging right from the start, I dunno if its I finally moved up to Play or that the non-toxic people have been leaking out but its getting annoying.
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Jan 24, 2023 14:06
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dogstile posted:Honestly it sounds to me that you just get tilted the moment someone has a bad game/bad matchup and then being tilted you throw your own games. I'm not expecting perfect play from anyone, but I am expecting the Tank not to constantly hide behind their team and/or constantly solo flank. Is that really that much to ask? Just stand between their team and our team.
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Jan 24, 2023 14:29
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dogstile posted:Honestly it sounds to me that you just get tilted the moment someone has a bad game/bad matchup and then being tilted you throw your own games. like some others in this thread they exist tilted
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Jan 24, 2023 14:34
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have you ever heard the expression "all aim no brain?" well that can kind of apply to tanks too where they do really dumb poo poo like be way too aggro or passive but still somehow play at that ranking b/c of other things they are better at than other tanks there. im just sayin the vast majority of players converge to 50% win rate after a bunch of games (except at the extremities of the ladder) and well if theyre at a rating and it's a 50% win rate...
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Jan 24, 2023 14:52
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comedyblissoption posted:have you ever heard the expression "all aim no brain?" One easy mental mistake to make: If you are a better tank player than DPS, you'll likely see all the terrible mistakes that your tank player is making. The funny part is that your DPS skill is just as bad but your mistakes are invisible to you. Of course this can happen, even if you are equally good at both roles. Everyone makes different mistakes, but it is amplified if there is a skill gap. Also, the lower the SR, the more flaws there are in people's play, so it is very easy to point fingers when you know 1 thing that your tank has not yet learned. headcase fucked around with this message at 15:16 on Jan 24, 2023 |
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Jan 24, 2023 15:06
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And again, that is true and yet completely missing the point of complaint. Differences between player skill exist. Differences between the skill of players on the same role but on opposing teams in a match exist. The tank role is an extremely powerful role in Overwatch 2 with a disproportionate amount of influence on the course of a match. None of these statements are contentious. This means that "tank diff" is a phenomenon that influences individual matches greatly in a random way. This can fall in a given team's favour, or against them. Over the long term it will indeed average out. This does not make it acceptable because those matches are often so imbalanced that they are essentially pre-determined. The winning team will of course have a better experience than the losing team, but this does not make the match a good one for anyone involved. This phenomenon occurs far too frequently in the game. It is of less concern that it occurs in Unranked - although one can only imagine that it's extremely bad for the long-term health of the game as it will actively be driving players away who are on the losing side of the equation too often - but it is of tremendous concern that it happens so frequently in Ranked. It literally introduces much greater than normal random variance into the outcome of matches and therefore player ranking, and the fact that it evens out over a long enough time frame does not make this ok - it's an awful, awful experience, and the only people who can shrug and say "it evens out" are the people who are very highly committed to and invested in the game already, with enough time and experience to regulate their negative emotional response to outcomes that feel unfair and outside their control. They are also likely to be playing more matches and thus see this smoothing effect more readily than someone playing on a relatively casual basis, for whom random variance can mean an extremely bad and unenjoyable evening of what should be a leisure time activity. Those people who can shrug it off are in an absolute minority and the rest of the player base are not salty, not whining and not permanently tilted for an entirely normal take on a very poor aspect of the game's current design. All of the above does not even mention the games impacted by player skill variance between heroes and the fact that a player is assigned to a role based on the heroes that they play most and are familiar with, so their picking a different hero is going to skew the difference in their skill match substantially more than the matchmaker can account for. It does not mention the games where players choose to play against the design of the role they've selected, which even making the assumption that they are familiar with this variant play style and have found their correct MMR for it, will badly impact the rest of their team who are not expecting to play to accommodate that play style and are unlikely to be familiar with the requirements of doing so. It does not mention the games where a player chooses to actively troll and throw the match. These behaviours crop up on all roles, of course. But the central point is that the tank role is more impactful in this game and makes these team differences very, very hard to overcome. I think some complaining about that is entirely justified.
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Jan 24, 2023 15:19
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Hey Jack, you know that flanking tank? Go with him. Ape together strong. Sounds like you're fighting main for basically no reason. If your tank is not there and you're not winning your duels, you should go with your tank. No matter what they're doing. Hanging back, eh, whatever. Can't be helped. Flanking? Yeah you can do that too. In fact quite a lot of strategies involve crossfire, which you can also do. ------------- Sadis, You're also making the assumption that the vast majority of people are playing tanks they're not usually playing, which just, well, doesn't make sense. If they did that all the time, they'd be getting comfy with the tanks, no? Also, as a simple exercise, how often do you pick heroes you don't actually feel comfy playing? Not often? I certainly don't. Quite a lot of people don't like flexing off of what they feel comfy playing, as seen by all the "loving one trick" posts we used to get. I have a gigantic doubt that you've seen enough open profiles of "this is tank mcgees first game on ball ever" for it to be a trend.
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Jan 24, 2023 15:30
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socialsecurity posted:Things have felt more toxic lately, almost every match has 1-2 people raging right from the start, I dunno if its I finally moved up to Play or that the non-toxic people have been leaking out but its getting annoying. There aren't players from mainland China diluting teams anymore, so you're enjoying the distilled American Experience ™.
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Jan 24, 2023 15:32
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SadisTech posted:And again, that is true and yet completely missing the point of complaint. Here's the thing though - I have seen now many examples of players who while doing "Bronze to GM" playthroughs (with any character, all three roles), fly through the ranks I am sitting in, at an 80% or higher winrate. It is quite clear that were I actually much more skilled than the people around me, I would influence matches to a huge degree, no matter what role I'm in, and fly up in ranking accordingly. While yes, I am sure that in any given match, some people are worse than others, unless they are smurfing or something, it's not dramatically so, and if I'm having trouble breaking out of those ranks, it is entirely on me to get better, because then I will do so. I too get frustrated at times, and in the heat of a moment can think to myself its all someone else's fault. Really though, after the heat of that moment, you've gotta step back and think "well, there's a lot of people who just crush past these ranks without thinking about it. Clearly there are things I need to focus on to get better", or else you're never actually going to get better and get past those ranks. No matchmaker is ever going to be 100% perfect, no game is going to be perfectly even every time, and you are never going to get only games with great team coordination out of random matchmaking. You have to expect that things are not going to be perfect or else you're just literally booting up a disappointment machine every night. It IS possible to just dominate these matches if YOU improve. Your play, even if your tank sucked is NOT perfect. Just make those things better every time and you will progress. If you keep concentrating on the imperfect matchmaker and every little perceived fault in your teammates, you won't get anywhere.
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Jan 24, 2023 15:35
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dogstile posted:Sadis, You're also making the assumption that the vast majority of people are playing tanks they're not usually playing, which just, well, doesn't make sense. No. I'm not. I'm addressing that scenario, since it's been raised multiple times above. The issue is the skill variance being disproportionately impactful on the tank role! That's it!
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Jan 24, 2023 15:35
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Jack Trades posted:I'm not expecting perfect play from anyone, but I am expecting the Tank not to constantly hide behind their team and/or constantly solo flank. 
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Jan 24, 2023 15:35
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Lots of time when I see "tank diff" it's usually from a DPS that was off on their own getting themselves killed vs dps on the other team that was getting picks and/or assisting their tank.
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Jan 24, 2023 15:39
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SadisTech posted:No. I'm not. I'm addressing that scenario, since it's been raised multiple times above. The issue is the skill variance being disproportionately impactful on the tank role! That's it! And i'm telling you, as the person who's been getting beamed by soj-mercy at the high end, that it's significantly less simple than you're making it out to be.
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Jan 24, 2023 15:39
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toadee posted:Here's the thing though - I have seen now many examples of players who while doing "Bronze to GM" playthroughs (with any character, all three roles), fly through the ranks I am sitting in, at an 80% or higher winrate. It is quite clear that were I actually much more skilled than the people around me, I would influence matches to a huge degree, no matter what role I'm in, and fly up in ranking accordingly. I mean, offering this as an example makes me think you might not get the difference between GM level and say Plat. Let alone Bronze. Yes they are much more hugely skilled than the players around them. Vastly so. They make a living from being that skilled, it is their livelihood along with a personality that's engaging enough to retain an audience. And that doesn't have to be much of a personality. Of course they're going to influence matches. I would not functionally exist in a game versus these individuals. If you're saying this because you think I believe I should be ranking up and these tank players are holding me back, no, that's not it at all. Completely not. I have a pretty realistic picture of my own competence and it is decidedly average. Maybe a hair above, on a good day. That is not the issue. I don't know how many times I have to repeat this in the face of flying assumptions.
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Jan 24, 2023 15:41
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No, you're just assuming that the people on the other role on your team have no idea what they're doing. They have as much idea as what they're doing as you do. So if they don't, then neither do you.
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Jan 24, 2023 15:43
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SadisTech posted:And again, that is true and yet completely missing the point of complaint. To me, this is the crux of all the back and forth. If you believe the above you’re on one side of the divide, if you don’t you’re on the other. Personally, I believe OW2 is a new game, a hard game, and a game with snowballey mechanics. It can be very team dependent but there are options (though difficult) for people to deal with a weaker tank (flank supports), weaker DPS (interrupt duels), and weaker supports (cover, cover, cover). I also believe that every game comes down to whether or not you can work with your team better than the enemy can, and sometimes you can’t so you do your best, gg, and then move on. And I don’t believe it’ll ever get much better, even with matchmaking adjustments on the backend. Edit: accidentally clipped out the part complaining about tank variance. Oh well. That’s what the above refers too. Proven fucked around with this message at 15:47 on Jan 24, 2023 |
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Jan 24, 2023 15:44
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part of the fun of ladder [of any game] is being flexible enough to work with the weird off meta or dumb poo poo your teammates do everyone doing the same meta thing or being perfectly intelligent players all the time like grognards would suck
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Jan 24, 2023 15:45
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dogstile posted:And i'm telling you, as the person who's been getting beamed by soj-mercy at the high end, that it's significantly less simple than you're making it out to be. I can phrase this very very simply indeed. Far too many games of Overwatch 2 are utterly one-sided stomps. This is not a good situation. Of those games that are one-sided stomps, a substantial proportion of them are decided by a significant difference in the performance of the tank players on opposing teams. Not all of them, not by a long shot. But enough that it is worth calling out as an issue making the game worse than it needs to be. It's well after midnight and I have a very large workday doing documentation that has to be completed ahead of a long weekend so that's where I have to leave it.
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Jan 24, 2023 15:47
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Sadly, the game just isn't the same as it used to be. Tanks holding the front line without cover doesn't work. Even Orisa needs to be in a covered soft flank and trying to draw 2-3 people's attention. I could be wrong about this because I haven't quite figured it out, but it seems like flanking is a good strategy for tanks. Getting solo picks is the key to winning. We are basically in a TDM with dumb pushcart objective that nobody wants to deal with. everyone is on their own and trying to outflank eachother.
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Jan 24, 2023 15:47
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SadisTech posted:Of those games that are one-sided stomps, a substantial proportion of them are decided by a significant difference in the performance of the tank players on opposing teams. Not all of them, not by a long shot. But enough that it is worth calling out as an issue making the game worse than it needs to be. For every person saying this, I can point at a game where someone refuses to support their tank against a tank that's being supported and then they'll type "tank diff". It's dumb, toxic bullshit. It's not "something that needs to be called out". Sometimes your team gets rolled. That's comp games. That's not even an Overwatch problem.
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Jan 24, 2023 15:49
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Orissa doesn't even need to flank, she can just push the other tank out of the way with spear twirl, grab a pick with her toss, then fortify back to safety. By then her spear twirl will be ready again because it's on a six second timer. I am so loving sick of playing Orissa I stopped queing tank.
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Jan 24, 2023 15:52
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Cpt_Obvious posted:Orissa doesn't even need to flank, she can just push the other tank out of the way with spear twirl, grab a pick with her toss, then fortify back to safety. By then her spear twirl will be ready again because it's on a six second timer. True, but i guess the point is that nobody is going to hold you in their big muscular robo-arms and protect you from the sojourn that is outplaying you.
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Jan 24, 2023 15:55
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i think the game is fun with friends in qp, and outside of that, it's not so fun, so i only play it in qp with friends these days
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Jan 24, 2023 15:56
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"tank diffs" are definitely not the reason why ow2 is more snowbally Having 1 less player means first picks and good ults are way more impactful and probably the biggest reason ow2 is more snowbally. It doesn't help that the ults they've been adding are ridiculously powerful 1 player getting exploited on a team over and over b/c they're not used to something is much more impactful in 5v5 than 6v6 (e.g. not respecting widow sightlines or roadhog hook or dumb roadhog flanks properly). It's easier to exploit the weak links since protective shields aren't spammed everywhere
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Jan 24, 2023 15:56
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dogstile posted:For every person saying this, I can point at a game where someone refuses to support their tank against a tank that's being supported and then they'll type "tank diff". It's not "sometimes" when it's happening constantly and I've played a poo poo ton of OW1 to say with confidence that it's a thing that almost never happened before until after the 5v5 switch.
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Jan 24, 2023 16:06
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Cpt_Obvious posted:I am so loving sick of playing Orissa I stopped queing tank.
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Jan 24, 2023 16:09
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comedyblissoption posted:you can pick whatever tank you want and main them and then converge to evenly matched games! And how many losses would it take? Does your dad work at the MMR factory or something? jfc
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Jan 24, 2023 16:10
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SadisTech posted:If you're saying this because you think I believe I should be ranking up and these tank players are holding me back, no, that's not it at all. Completely not. I have a pretty realistic picture of my own competence and it is decidedly average. Maybe a hair above, on a good day. That is not the issue. I don't know how many times I have to repeat this in the face of flying assumptions. Then what is it that you want? You are playing where you should be and getting the result you should be getting. Maybe you just don't like Overwatch 2?
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Jan 24, 2023 16:11
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Jack Trades posted:And how many losses would it take?  anyways usually picking an alternate character isn't going to be that far off from someone's main rating
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Jan 24, 2023 16:13
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