[Marx] I put on my anti-coat and wizard hat

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > [Marx] I put on my anti-coat and wizard hat

«‹›389 »

(Thread IKs: dead gay comedy forums)

Trash Ops: Jun 19, 2012; im having fun, isnt everyone else?

afaik trots are why the dsa has that no dual carding with demcent parties, addicted to entryism

# ? Jan 25, 2023 13:50

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? May 25, 2024 13:25

lumpentroll: Mar 4, 2020

the dsa are worse than trots in every way

# ? Jan 25, 2023 13:56

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

Communist Thoughts posted:

Is the tendency of some to defend stalin just contrarianism?

You often get online lefties talking an odd mix of actually Stalin wasn't that bad but usually those same lefties are the ones also making dark references to stuff like "when the revolution comes we can solve a lot of these problems with bullets"

Seems like a bad mix. I can't imagine anything more offputting to normies or less scary for capitalists to hear

~~Glenn's~~ Josef's right

# ? Jan 25, 2023 13:57

KomradeX: Oct 29, 2011

lumpentroll posted:

the dsa are worse than trots in every way

gradenko_2000 posted:

~~Glenn's~~ Josef's right

# ? Jan 25, 2023 13:59

croup coughfield: Apr 8, 2020; Can't post for 73 days!

Communist Thoughts posted:

Is the tendency of some to defend stalin just contrarianism?

You often get online lefties talking an odd mix of actually Stalin wasn't that bad but usually those same lefties are the ones also making dark references to stuff like "when the revolution comes we can solve a lot of these problems with bullets"

Seems like a bad mix. I can't imagine anything more offputting to normies or less scary for capitalists to hear

i want to stress this: do not look at posters online for insight into political or indeed any ideology or belief that intersects with the real world

# ? Jan 25, 2023 15:21

mawarannahr: May 21, 2019

Trash Ops posted:

afaik trots are why the dsa has that no dual carding with demcent parties, addicted to entryism

they don�t practice it anymore. most socialist alternative members are DSA members

# ? Jan 25, 2023 16:00

Bilirubin: Feb 16, 2014; The sanctioned action is to CHUG

croup coughfield posted:

i want to stress this: do not look at posters online for insight into political or indeed any ideology or belief that intersects with the real world

# ? Jan 25, 2023 16:01

Sunny Side Up: Jun 22, 2004; Mayoist Third Condimentist

Comrade Koba posted:

you know you�re reading a trot publication when they absolutely have to shoehorn in a half-assed attempt to blame liberal idpol on stalinism

other than that, legit good essay.

Yeah that was a weird diversion, like but otherwise good. How do you argue against privilege politics in normie discourse, though? Let�s say you�re just setting up a group and want to lay down some basic shared values. My thought is to start with solidarity and unity against the cause of overlapping oppression.

Communist Thoughts posted:

Is the tendency of some to defend stalin just contrarianism?

No, there was far more good than bad.

# ? Jan 25, 2023 16:12

mawarannahr: May 21, 2019

i don�t think there�d be a big difference in death in the ussr if trotsky had been in power but I guess we�ll never know

# ? Jan 25, 2023 16:14

Mr. Lobe: Feb 23, 2007; ... Dry bones...

Sunny Side Up posted:

Yeah that was a weird diversion, like but otherwise good. How do you argue against privilege politics in normie discourse, though? Let’s say you’re just setting up a group and want to lay down some basic shared values. My thought is to start with solidarity and unity against the cause of overlapping oppression.

No, there was far more good than bad.

In addition to talking about the alternative, a politics of solidarity and mutual liberation, you also point out that there is no liberation at the end of privilege discourse. It's just a moralistic tabulation that doesn't set anyone on the course to a better life

# ? Jan 25, 2023 16:17

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

mawarannahr posted:

i don�t think there�d be a big difference in death in the ussr if trotsky had been in power but I guess we�ll never know

quote:

Although Trotskyism often functions as a kind of politico-theoretical obstacle, preventing the radical self-critical analysis needed by the contemporary left, the figure of Trotsky nonetheless remains crucial in so far as it stands for an element which disturbs the alternative 'either (social) democratic socialism or Stalinist totalitarianism': what we find in Trotsky, in his writings and his revolutionary practice in the early years of the Soviet Union, is revolutionary terror, party rule, etc., but in a different mode from that of Stalinism. One should thus, on account of the very fidelity to Trotsky's real achievements, dispel the popular myths of a soft and democratic Trotsky. And, again, the conclusion 'even if Trotsky had won, the ultimate result would have been basically the same' (or, even more, the claim that Trotsky was at the origin of Stalinism, namely, that, from the late 1920s onwards, Stalin merely applied and developed measures first envisaged by Trotsky in the years of war communism) is erroneous: history is open, one cannot tell what would have happened if Trotsky had won. The problem lies elsewhere: in the fact that Trotsky's strategy and attitude in the mid-1920s made it impossible for his orientation to win in the struggle for state power.

In the diaries of Georgi Dimitrov we get a unique glimpse into how Stalin was fully aware of what brought him to power, giving an unexpected twist to his well-known slogan 'people (cadres) are our greatest wealth'. When, at a dinner in November 1937, Dimitrov praises the 'great luck' of the international workers, in that they had such a genius as their leader, Stalin, Stalin answered: '. . . I do not agree with him. He even expressed himself in a non-Marxist way .... Decisive are the middle cadres'. He puts it in an even clearer way a paragraph earlier:

quote:
Why did we win over Trotsky and others? It is well known that, after Lenin, Trotsky was the most popular in our land .... But we had the support of the middle cadres, and they explained our grasp of the situation to the masses ... Trotsky did not pay any attention to these cadres.

Here, Stalin spelled out the secret of his rise to power: as a rather anonymous general secretary, he nominated tens of thousands of cadres who owed their rise to� him ... This is why Stalin did not yet want Lenin dead in early 1922, rejecting his demand to be given poison to end his life after the debilitating stroke: had Lenin died already in early 1922, the question of succession would not yet have been resolved irt Stalin's favour, since Stalin as the general secretary did not yet sufficiently penetrate the party apparatus with his appointees - he needed another year or two, so that, when Lenin effectively died, he could count on the support of thousands of mid-level cadres nominated by him to triumph over the big names of the Bolshevik 'aristocracy'.

- Slavoj Zizek

# ? Jan 25, 2023 16:22

croup coughfield: Apr 8, 2020; Can't post for 73 days!

the first step in participating in "normie discourse" - and this is critical - is to be normal yourself

# ? Jan 25, 2023 16:26

Lib and let die: Aug 26, 2004

croup coughfield posted:

the first step in participating in "normie discourse" - and this is critical - is to be normal yourself

Well gently caress

# ? Jan 25, 2023 16:27

Sunny Side Up: Jun 22, 2004; Mayoist Third Condimentist

croup coughfield posted:

the first step in participating in "normie discourse" - and this is critical - is to be normal yourself

Sorry let me rephrase as unexamined western �leftist� discourse

Also by definition being an ML is outside the norm whoops!!!

# ? Jan 25, 2023 16:37

croup coughfield: Apr 8, 2020; Can't post for 73 days!

Lib and let die posted:

Well gently caress

its a high bar to clear for many goons but i have faith in you

# ? Jan 25, 2023 16:37

croup coughfield: Apr 8, 2020; Can't post for 73 days!

Sunny Side Up posted:

Sorry let me rephrase as unexamined western �leftist� discourse

Also by definition being an ML is outside the norm whoops!!!

i hate the term "leftist" and spit poison at it. mfs dont even know what theyre left of

# ? Jan 25, 2023 16:37

Catgirl Al Capone: Dec 15, 2007

most rl people i know who've called themselves leftists are either old hippies who run small businesses and abuse their workers or just bog-standard liberal democrats

# ? Jan 25, 2023 16:41

croup coughfield: Apr 8, 2020; Can't post for 73 days!

new left bullshit. tell me more about passive resistance

# ? Jan 25, 2023 16:48

Centrist Committee: Aug 6, 2019

im a Leftist Democrat :smugdog:

# ? Jan 25, 2023 16:50

copy: Jul 26, 2007

croup coughfield posted:

i hate the term "leftist" and spit poison at it. mfs dont even know what theyre left of

left out

# ? Jan 25, 2023 16:52

croup coughfield: Apr 8, 2020; Can't post for 73 days!

copy posted:

left out

lol

# ? Jan 25, 2023 16:52

Azathoth: Apr 3, 2001

mawarannahr posted:

i don�t think there�d be a big difference in death in the ussr if trotsky had been in power but I guess we�ll never know

historical counterfactuals are fun to argue online but one shouldn't think that they actually matter or even that the argument can be particularly insightful towards solving future problems. it's one thing when the argument hinges on a coincidence or small choice that had large ripple effects, but in larger things like "would the Soviet Union have collapsed", it wasn't the consequence of a single decision but rather a series of decisions made over decades by a variety of people with a variety of motivations, all of which were made for very understandable, material reasons, and without changing the material conditions that led to those decisions, it's hard to see history playing out any different.

i think it's hard to argue against the fact that the Soviet Union was brought down, in the end, by a multi-decade concerted effort by the capitalist powers that be. whatever tactical choices were made in that fight by the leaders of the Soviet Union, it's hard to identify alternate choices they could have reasonably made that would have had world-altering difference. probably the most consequential for the future of the Soviet project was the switch to Socialism in One Country, which as i understand it, is a prime criticism from Trotsky himself. however, it is hard to examine the material conditions in the 1920s and, knowing what they knew at the time, come to the conclusion that they could do anything else but switch their focus. as i understand it, the Soviet Union still continued to be committed to internationalism, but they lacked the material resources to do more, so they made a tough but necessary choice.

so much of counterfactual discussion presupposes that there must be some set of choices that could have been made that would have resulted in some meaningfully different end, but for something as complex as that, it requires a lot of magical thinking to imagine that when given the same resources on each side, the war would have gone materially different with different leaders.

# ? Jan 25, 2023 17:05

Sunny Side Up: Jun 22, 2004; Mayoist Third Condimentist

croup coughfield posted:

i hate the term "leftist" and spit poison at it. mfs dont even know what theyre left of

# ? Jan 25, 2023 17:14

Sunny Side Up: Jun 22, 2004; Mayoist Third Condimentist

Azathoth posted:

historical counterfactuals are fun to argue online but one shouldn't think that they actually matter or even that the argument can be particularly insightful towards solving future problems. it's one thing when the argument hinges on a coincidence or small choice that had large ripple effects, but in larger things like "would the Soviet Union have collapsed", it wasn't the consequence of a single decision but rather a series of decisions made over decades by a variety of people with a variety of motivations, all of which were made for very understandable, material reasons, and without changing the material conditions that led to those decisions, it's hard to see history playing out any different.

i think it's hard to argue against the fact that the Soviet Union was brought down, in the end, by a multi-decade concerted effort by the capitalist powers that be. whatever tactical choices were made in that fight by the leaders of the Soviet Union, it's hard to identify alternate choices they could have reasonably made that would have had world-altering difference. probably the most consequential for the future of the Soviet project was the switch to Socialism in One Country, which as i understand it, is a prime criticism from Trotsky himself. however, it is hard to examine the material conditions in the 1920s and, knowing what they knew at the time, come to the conclusion that they could do anything else but switch their focus. as i understand it, the Soviet Union still continued to be committed to internationalism, but they lacked the material resources to do more, so they made a tough but necessary choice.

so much of counterfactual discussion presupposes that there must be some set of choices that could have been made that would have resulted in some meaningfully different end, but for something as complex as that, it requires a lot of magical thinking to imagine that when given the same resources on each side, the war would have gone materially different with different leaders.

After the NEP was the USSR actively working toward decommodification a la the GLF/GPCR? If so when did that stop? I feel like that�s a good demarcation in analyzing modern China so also useful here. (Honestly asking, have not read enough on the USSR)

# ? Jan 25, 2023 17:23

croup coughfield: Apr 8, 2020; Can't post for 73 days!

i can tell you without reservation that if trotsky won out over stalin the ussr wouldve been several orders of magnitude more horny

# ? Jan 25, 2023 17:24

In Training: Jun 28, 2008

can I say I'm a Marxist .

# ? Jan 25, 2023 17:24

croup coughfield: Apr 8, 2020; Can't post for 73 days!

In Training posted:

can I say I'm a Marxist .

step into my embrace brother

# ? Jan 25, 2023 17:25

genericnick: Dec 26, 2012

Sunny Side Up posted:

No, there was far more good than bad.

Every existing try at communism: Evil beyond measure, no way to defend it.
-Point one in my 5 point plan to get normies interested in communism.

# ? Jan 25, 2023 17:25

Comrade Koba: Jul 2, 2007

Sunny Side Up posted:

My thought is to start with solidarity and unity against the cause of overlapping oppression.

this is good. also,

marxist.ca posted:

The truth is that the dominant ideology in a class society is that of the ruling class.

for some people i guess this could go a long way towards explaining why racism and the like exists, as opposed to it just being something that spontaneously happens because some mean people are too privileged

# ? Jan 25, 2023 17:38

Mr. Lobe: Feb 23, 2007; ... Dry bones...

In Training posted:

can I say I'm a Marxist .

I dunno, can you?

# ? Jan 25, 2023 18:15

Catgirl Al Capone: Dec 15, 2007

leftists are fans of trans musician/comedian left at london

# ? Jan 25, 2023 19:02

Atrocious Joe: Sep 2, 2011

Communist Thoughts posted:

Is the tendency of some to defend stalin just contrarianism?

You often get online lefties talking an odd mix of actually Stalin wasn't that bad but usually those same lefties are the ones also making dark references to stuff like "when the revolution comes we can solve a lot of these problems with bullets"

Seems like a bad mix. I can't imagine anything more offputting to normies or less scary for capitalists to hear

Not sure I would have done a better job than Stalin if I was in his position tbh

# ? Jan 25, 2023 20:27

John Charity Spring: Nov 4, 2009; SCREEEEE

Atrocious Joe posted:

Not sure I would have done a better job than Stalin if I was in his position tbh

not with that username, no

# ? Jan 25, 2023 20:43

Slavvy: Dec 11, 2012

Atrocious Joe posted:

Not sure I would have done a better job than Stalin if I was in his position tbh

I would simply have used my knowledge of the future past to tell everyone it collapses eventually so don't bother

# ? Jan 25, 2023 21:01

Mechafunkzilla: Sep 11, 2006; If you want a vision of the future...

I would simply have not put a known serial rapist in charge of the secret police, among other things

# ? Jan 25, 2023 21:30

GalacticAcid: Apr 8, 2013; NEW YORK VALUES

if i were in stalin�s place i would have had four year plans instead of five. shake things up a bit.

# ? Jan 25, 2023 21:31

mawarannahr: May 21, 2019

good
https://twitter.com/anadoluagency/status/1618348499388571656

quote:

Thousands of healthcare workers, taxi drivers and teachers stopped working in Barcelona and took to the streets to protest on Wednesday.

In one strike, Barcelona police estimate that 6,500 teachers and healthcare workers crossed the city to protest in front of the regional parliament.

They carried signs saying �no to privatization� and demanded more resources for the public sector.

In another, organized by the Metges healthcare union, an estimated 10,000 doctors and nurses staged a protest that began in front of the regional health department.

At the same time, thousands of taxi drivers in around 900 vehicles completely cut off Gran Via � one of Barcelona�s main roads for traffic � for hours to demonstrate against digital platforms.

The protesters said platforms that make fairs flexible are �killing the taxi� and mainly targeted a platform called Free Now, but also Uber.

During the protests, the unions decided not to strike during an upcoming audiovisual festival. However, taxi strikes during the massive Mobile World Congress event in May are still on the table.

Despite the significant disruption to the city, Barcelona�s left-wing mayor Ada Colau applauded the strikes staged by teachers and healthcare workers.

�Education and public healthcare are two pillars of a democratic society committed to not leaving anyone behind,� she wrote on Instagram.

Elsewhere in Spain, healthcare strikes are also planned for Extremadura, Navarra, Cantabria, Aragon, Andalusia and Valencia.

The healthcare strikes in Madrid have been ongoing for weeks, particularly among primary care doctors and pediatricians.

�The healthcare strike is a political strike that they want to make last until elections. Every day they�re coming up with a new excuse,� said Madrid President Isabel Diaz Ayuso.

Amid the labor action in Madrid, several healthcare workers have locked themselves in a neighborhood association since Thursday �to continue giving visibility to the situation that Madrid�s primary healthcare is in.�

# ? Jan 25, 2023 21:44

Mechafunkzilla: Sep 11, 2006; If you want a vision of the future...

Ayuso is such a massive piece of poo poo, I resent your post for reminding me that she exists

# ? Jan 25, 2023 22:28

unwantedplatypus: Sep 6, 2012

I'm not normal and I don't think I can make myself be normal. I would like to be an effective communist despite that.

# ? Jan 26, 2023 02:38

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? May 25, 2024 13:25

Mr. Lobe: Feb 23, 2007; ... Dry bones...

unwantedplatypus posted:

I'm not normal and I don't think I can make myself be normal. I would like to be an effective communist despite that.

I'm very not normal but have gained the esteem of relatively normal people by having redeeming qualities and social graces

Possess or develop either of those and you'll do fine

# ? Jan 26, 2023 02:45

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > C-SPAM > [Marx] I put on my anti-coat and wizard hat

«‹›389 »