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Q_res posted:Complain that the order is immoral, nobody asked you now shut up and do your job. Interestingly enough, there is a line Garibaldi says to G'Kar that touches on this exactly - …you don’t follow an order because you know for sure it’s gonna work out. You do what you are told, because your CO has the moral authority that says you may not come back.
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Jan 24, 2023 19:00
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I guess I can see how it is less satisfying for him to use the power of legalism instead of making an emotional appeal to morality, but from a more practical perspective, it's very relevant that what Clark was doing was also a coup, and going along with it in that moment would be an endorsement of Clark's suppression of of the actual official system of government, and presumably after the war, that will form the legal basis of punishing the people responsible for helping Clark's coup like Dr.Kelso. Also from a military perspective, you are trained a whole lot to follow orders from those above you, so if you have an appeal to higher authority instead of to personal judgement, that is more likely to make an impression. With Londo's death, personally I like to think that maybe the future that Sheridan went to might not happen, especially since that was Sheridan's own interpretation of it. Not that his reasoning makes any real sense.
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Jan 24, 2023 19:13
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FISHMANPET posted:Just finished up my rewatch, and remembered one thing that always sort of stuck in my craw is how Sheridan just kept harping on how the orders were illegal, rather than immoral. I kind of get that he's a military man first, and so that the legality of the orders would be of primary concern to him, but so much of his other actions seem more morally driven, so it just feels weird. It's a TRON reference, back to when Boxleitner as Tron escapes from the gamegrid and is scolded by a voice claiming that he is making an "illegal exit." (PS. It is not a TRON reference.) FISHMANPET posted:ALSO in stupid "mah realism" nonsense, in season 5 Sheridan brokers a deal where the Pak'mara share the excess from their agricultural colony with another race that's having a food shortage, but what the hell does a Pak'mara agricultural colony actually produce? Maybe they're raising livestock and slaughtering it and then letting it rot for 5 days before sending it along, and in the deal the Pak'mara would send along fresh products? Carrion eaters have to eat formerly living creatures, right? The only difference between them and strict carnivores is how long the thing they're eating has been dead, and how it needs to be prepared. Most likely the pak'ma'ra raise the animals they eat, and those animals need feeding. It is even possible that the pak'ma'ra consider killing slaughtering animals to be wrong and that they eat carrion from agricultural animals that die from natural causes; if that were the case, they'd need a great many more food animals to provide for the same population's needs as compared with actively killing the animals they eat. It's also quite possible that, while the pak'ma'ra are carrion eaters, they are not exclusively carrion eaters. Or maybe they have a strong interest in lots of garnish? All that said, I can't recommend eating their version of Swedish meatballs.
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Jan 24, 2023 20:23
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Speaking of moral vs legal orders, when Lochley is explaining to Garibaldi why she sided with Clark, her defense was "you follow the orders you're given until they violate your morals" and that's kinda wild using that to justify siding with the side that shot down civilian ships. What the hell are your moral limits, Lochley.
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Jan 24, 2023 20:48
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FISHMANPET posted:Speaking of moral vs legal orders, when Lochley is explaining to Garibaldi why she sided with Clark, her defense was "you follow the orders you're given until they violate your morals" and that's kinda wild using that to justify siding with the side that shot down civilian ships. What the hell are your moral limits, Lochley. This was honestly worse for me than Byron - particularly all the station regulars applauding her (?!). As I said ITT: Being pissed that she served for the guy who overthrew the government she swore to protect and installed his own fascist regime on live TV doesn't seem problematic to me at all. To expand on that - a government is not just the executive (and if it is, guess what! That's an autocracy). If the President has illegally dissolved another branch of the government you have sworn to protect and you do not rebel or resign, guess what! You are saying that you are okay with that. It is clear that Lochley (as presented) has no problem with fascists as long as they are in her chain of command. I guess this was just JMS trying for a Civil Waresque reunification narrative and loving it up? Or maybe this was one of those studio decisions - "Make Sheridan bring on a Captain from the other side for drama! Also make her his ex-wife." It was gross then and it's super gross now.
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Jan 24, 2023 21:25
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Yeah, "It's not the military's role to dictate policy" as if dissolving the duly elected senate was just a "policy choice". Yeah not really a fan of what her character is doing and supposed to represent. If she really is supposed to just be a brazen fascist then it's not really addressed in any meaningful way. I guess par for the course for Season 5.
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Jan 24, 2023 21:34
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I think Lochley had a very minimalist "nobody gave me an illegal order" interpretation of the situation. She was lucky enough to be able to basically sit the thing out until the civil war itself came to her.
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Jan 25, 2023 01:22
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We know the Clarke regime was sophisticated with their propaganda and disinformation, and it was one of their top priorities to shut down dissenting voices. Perhaps Lochley (along with most others in the military) only saw what they wanted her to see, and so believed the "official" version or interpretation of most events. And there's also the fact that even if she had sympathized with Sheridan's side, actually throwing in with his faction would probably mean enough mutiny and treason charges to get her executed a dozen times over. Defecting is a big deal. It's all well and good for us to say she should have taken a stand and joined the good guys, but actually doing so would be a gigantic decision, and an even bigger gamble. Yes, lots of people in the Earth military did make that choice, but undoubtedly there were many more who secretly wanted to, but just didn't dare.
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Jan 25, 2023 02:44
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It was probably very easy to be manipulated by Clark if you didn't have the advantage of being manipulated by Delenn
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Jan 25, 2023 03:17
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Is this a thread for Babylon 5 or is it a thread for some Babylon 5 reboot? If the latter then is there a Babylon 5 thread?
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Jan 27, 2023 17:44
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Prurient Squid posted:Is this a thread for Babylon 5 or is it a thread for some Babylon 5 reboot? If the latter then is there a Babylon 5 thread? This is the general-purpose Babylon 5 thread, yes. News of the future reboot (which may or may not even happen) has a home here, but it's mostly for discussion of the good old 90s show.
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Jan 27, 2023 17:52
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Prurient Squid posted:Is this a thread for Babylon 5 or is it a thread for some Babylon 5 reboot? If the latter then is there a Babylon 5 thread? What Powered Descent said, and also if you happen to be a new viewer there is a (relatively) spoiler-free blind-watch thread here: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3925635
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Jan 27, 2023 18:36
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Thanks guys. Remember that one species that were so prudish that they went extinct.
Prurient Squid fucked around with this message at 19:00 on Jan 27, 2023 |
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Jan 27, 2023 18:49
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looks like JMS considers those cgi remasters on youtube as copyright infringement and has basically told the b5scrolls guy to remove them. some are still up, but the longer, more detailed ones look to have been taken down. from what i can tell, the issue appears to claims made involving the CGI process with how the shots were rendered widescreen vs the normal aspect ratio and other claims made on the b5scrolls site that joe disagrees with (but the CGI artists back up the version of events put out by the b5scrolls guy; jms says that the CGI artists "killed the future of the show.") so, that's cool. i guess.
Horizon Burning fucked around with this message at 13:48 on Feb 1, 2023 |
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Feb 1, 2023 13:17
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So assuming the JMS meltdown means that the new B5 is completely dead?
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Feb 1, 2023 14:49
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Issaries posted:So assuming the JMS meltdown means that the new B5 is completely dead? Likely so, when someone is frustrated with things they can't retaliate against it's common to take it out on something they can actually hurt.
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Feb 1, 2023 14:51
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Thankfully the b5scrolls site is still good for all the interviews he did plus ship info: https://www.b5scrolls.com/ Guess it sucks to be JMS atm. Pretty sure some of the YT cgi folks will be heartbroken about their work getting cut... labour of love & all that for a few.
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Feb 1, 2023 15:24
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Horizon Burning posted:jms says that the CGI artists "killed the future of the show." Uh, Joe, I'm pretty sure Nexstar (the new owners of The CW) axing everything left and right and literally saying they're focusing on the 55-and-older crowd is what killed the future of the show.
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Feb 1, 2023 15:41
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Timby posted:focusing on the 55-and-older crowd is what killed the future of the show. 10 years too soon remake?
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Feb 1, 2023 15:54
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FWIW he's always been remarkably hostile to the B5 Scrolls folks, I have no idea why. But this predates the (likely dead) reboot I think.
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Feb 1, 2023 16:16
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Horizon Burning posted:looks like JMS considers those cgi remasters on youtube as copyright infringement and has basically told the b5scrolls guy to remove them. some are still up, but the longer, more detailed ones look to have been taken down. from what i can tell, the issue appears to claims made involving the CGI process with how the shots were rendered widescreen vs the normal aspect ratio and other claims made on the b5scrolls site that joe disagrees with (but the CGI artists back up the version of events put out by the b5scrolls guy; jms says that the CGI artists "killed the future of the show.") so, that's cool. i guess. B5scrolls guy compares himself to B5books and claims the only difference is that the latter are pro-JMS. Except that B5books publishes materials JMS owns, through arrangement with him, and he earns money from it. JMS doesn’t own the CGI from the show, WB does. If he flagged these materials, they could have ignored it, especially if they axed the reboot (at which point, what do they care?). The e-mail exchange the B5scrolls guy posted to Facebook was also a bit odd: he had the direct e-mail address of the flunky at WB who sent the take-down to Facebook (I’m not on Facebook but I’m shocked they’d provide that kind of direct contact information), who revealed JMS requested the take-down in the second sentence of their reply. I guess an intern might do something like that, but it’s an odd deflection when it’s WB who actually owns the footage and CGI. JMS is an established dick to people, including just about everyone who produced B5 with him, and he burns his bridges pretty comprehensively. That doesn’t make B5scrolls guy sympathetic just because they were having an Internet fight. And I guess he still wants to work with WB on a project even though intern X gave him a pretty comprehensive brush-off.
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Feb 1, 2023 16:17
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Yeah, JMS doesn't come across at all well in this, but the B5Scrolls guy has also come across as a condescending douchebag quite often. The B5Scrolls guy seems kinda determined to pour fuel on the fire and keep a feud going on behalf of grown men who had 20 years to communicate directly with each other. I don't like that JMS is holding a pointless grudge, and I don't really like that the B5Scrolls guy seems unable to let his interviews speak for themselves and has appointed himself defender of Foundation Imaging and the One True Voice of The Facts. He even places himself at the center of events by saying he reignited this whole thing by telling JMS about his interviews in the first place. Like, just stop, no one's winning from this and everyone looks bad.
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Feb 1, 2023 19:14
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Watching people struggle to prove themselves the King of their Fandom is always a stone laugh riot when it isn't terminally exhausting.
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Feb 1, 2023 19:21
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The B5scrolls guy posted a pretty long rebuttal of JMS's claims that the VFX company (Foundation) was responsible for rendering all the CGI in 4:3 instead of widescreen of he didn't know until it was too late. A week later WB issued their takedown notice.Dirty posted:Yeah, JMS doesn't come across at all well in this, but the B5Scrolls guy has also come across as a condescending douchebag quite often. Mr. Apollo fucked around with this message at 20:05 on Feb 1, 2023 |
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Feb 1, 2023 19:48
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Mr. Apollo posted:It seems to be a case of the stereotypical internet poster who just can't let something go and has to prove everyone else wrong. My favorite part about this comment is that you could be talking about either of them.
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Feb 1, 2023 21:04
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JMS has been extremely online for about 30 years now. Poor bastard.
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Feb 1, 2023 21:15
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ultrafilter posted:JMS has been extremely online for about 30 years now. Poor bastard. I'll never forget the amazing Internet spat he got into with Mark Waid and someone else from Marvel Comics after he took a shot at Spider-Man sales after he left the book. The whole thing is worth a read for how hilariously petty he was about the whole thing, and it ends with a sick ice burn from Mark Waid: quote:Half an hour later, still fuming at JMS's lovely passive-aggressiveness. I should probably go walk it off. Maybe with a long walk. A long, dull, pointless, boring walk. Across America. (This being a reference to Superman: Grounded, a comic book storyline about Superman taking a walk across the United States and helping random people. Straczynski left the book before it was even halfway finished.)
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Feb 1, 2023 21:46
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Can I please have a next-gen Babylon 5 video game now?
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Feb 1, 2023 22:37
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So was there ever any indication of what a reboot would actually be? You couldn't really reboot it like Battlestar Galactica where you just take the premise and tell a new story, since with B5 the premise is the story. Just retelling the same story doesn't feel worth the effort. On my latest rewatch I really got the impression that the overall "message"/"lesson" of B5 is pretty relevant to our current societal situation, so we really don't need B5 to to tell a new culturally/politically relevant parable. So, like, what would be the point?
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Feb 1, 2023 23:01
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Clearly it's going to have to tell a story that seems a bit outdated but will be reevaluated as disturbingly prescient 20 years from now.
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Feb 1, 2023 23:02
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FISHMANPET posted:So was there ever any indication of what a reboot would actually be? You couldn't really reboot it like Battlestar Galactica where you just take the premise and tell a new story, since with B5 the premise is the story. Just retelling the same story doesn't feel worth the effort. On my latest rewatch I really got the impression that the overall "message"/"lesson" of B5 is pretty relevant to our current societal situation, so we really don't need B5 to to tell a new culturally/politically relevant parable. So, like, what would be the point? Straczynski never said a word about it outside of it not being a sequel but a true reboot, and said he was hoping to involve as much of the original cast as possible.
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Feb 1, 2023 23:12
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Straczynski has said on his Patreon page that he isn't allowed to talk about anything with the reboot. Even if it's canceled, he'll never be able to share what it is.
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Feb 2, 2023 00:00
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Timby posted:Straczynski never said a word about it outside of it not being a sequel but a true reboot, and said he was hoping to involve as much of the original cast as possible. So he was writing the script with an Ouija board?
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Feb 2, 2023 00:07
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I said come in! posted:Can I please have a next-gen Babylon 5 video game now? I never forgave Sierra for cancelling the first attempt. 
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Feb 2, 2023 00:30
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Timby posted:I'll never forget the amazing Internet spat he got into with Mark Waid and someone else from Marvel Comics after he took a shot at Spider-Man sales after he left the book. I know you've posted that quote before but I don't recall reading that whole exchange before... and it's just incredible to see JMS pretend to not know why someone might take issue with his post. Like, was he just bored and decided it was time to stir up a flame war?
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Feb 2, 2023 01:57
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:I know you've posted that quote before but I don't recall reading that whole exchange before... and it's just incredible to see JMS pretend to not know why someone might take issue with his post. Like, was he just bored and decided it was time to stir up a flame war? “I was deliberately sayin’ not sayin’ ‘gently caress you, Joe Quesada,’ not ‘gently caress you, ASM creative team’. How dare you not read my mind!” The real dunk to my mind is Wacker’s response that the numbers in the chart are wrong and invented by someone who hates JMS. That plays with everyone without requiring an explanatory note for an ill-conceived JMS storyline that petered out rapidly. (Really, you’re gonna ding someone for a crap idea AND for abandoning the crap idea halfway through?)
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Feb 2, 2023 16:21
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Timby posted:I'll never forget the amazing Internet spat he got into with Mark Waid and someone else from Marvel Comics after he took a shot at Spider-Man sales after he left the book. He'd done it before in "Midnight Nation", how was he supposed to know it wouldn't work this time?
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Feb 2, 2023 16:25
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Farmer Crack-rear end posted:I know you've posted that quote before but I don't recall reading that whole exchange before... and it's just incredible to see JMS pretend to not know why someone might take issue with his post. Like, was he just bored and decided it was time to stir up a flame war? The man is very clearly deeply insecure.
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Feb 2, 2023 16:27
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Timby posted:The man is very clearly deeply insecure. About ten years ago, I spent about 18 months working for a boss who had some obscure beef with me. He never came right out and told me what he wanted. He'd tell me he was happy but allude to other, more senior leaders who weren't happy with my performance. I never internalized the idea that I was less than good at my job, but I was still left so starved for positive feedback that it broke something in me. So, knowing some of the poo poo JMS has gone through, I have sympathy for this sort of maladaptive behavior. I'm not saying it's OK and we should all admire him for being a dick, just that I'd be a dick too, if I'd lived his life.
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Feb 2, 2023 18:18
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Timby posted:The man is very clearly deeply insecure. his posting combat on usenet back in the 90s was very intense and kind of hilarious
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Feb 2, 2023 20:57
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