|
Who's your 2022 MVP? This poll is closed. |
|||
|---|---|---|---|
| Shohei Ohtani |
|
50 | 59.52% |
| Aaron Judge |
|
19 | 22.62% |
| Hey, the national league has an MVP too you know! |
|
15 | 17.86% |
| Total: | 84 votes | ||
|
Molina also gets a significant boost from any framing-based value metrics. So the old-school writers will like his "intangibles" and "field general" reputation and newer voters will like his framing to put him over the top.
|
#
?
Jan 27, 2023 17:32
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 28, 2024 16:16 |
|
|
I have full confidence in the BBWAA to completely screw up putting Mauer in the Hall. I really wish I didn't care about the Hall voting at all, would make life mellower.
|
|
#
?
Jan 27, 2023 18:02
|
|
|
Is there a penalty against players who you don't like because fans of the team you know irl won't shut the gently caress up about them
|
|
#
?
Jan 27, 2023 18:31
|
|
|
Putting Mauer in the hall should be such an easy lay up that the BBWAA is guaranteed to screw it up. If you’re looking strictly at WAR he’s kind of borderline, but ignoring the context of his injuries and position change is a crime. An actual crime that you should go to jail for.
|
|
#
?
Jan 27, 2023 18:36
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/gifs_baseball/status/1619021236453130242 BBref says Gary went 0-1 as a pinch hitter in his last game, so I'm not sure what he was celebrating. Edit: I always assumed he named his son after Darren, which means they must've been good friends, which sucks, because Daulton passed away from the cancer a bunch of ex-Phillies seem to get. Red fucked around with this message at 18:47 on Jan 27, 2023 |
|
#
?
Jan 27, 2023 18:44
|
|
|
Gary Varsho. 90s Cubs pinch hitter extraordinare
|
|
#
?
Jan 27, 2023 19:28
|
|
|
Imagine thinking any catcher is for sure first ballot when Piazza took four years and Ivan Rodriguez only barely got in first ballot. Mauer 1 MVP, 2Top5 6AS 3GG, 921G at catcher 913 at 1B/DH Joe Torre 1 MVP 2 Top5 9AS 1GG 903G at catcher 1302 at 1B/3B Not a hall of famer as a player.  Posey 1MVP 1ROY 6AS 1GG 1093G at catcher 260 at 1B/DH Sure voters today may consider context and narrative and judge things differently, but I wouldn't bet on it.
|
|
#
?
Jan 27, 2023 19:31
|
|
|
maruhkati posted:He still played catcher for 10 seasons (twice as long as he spent at first base) and had plenty of PAs at the position, along with an MVP and three batting titles. What's more, the WAR from his 7-year peak as a catcher is higher than Yogi Berra and Carlton Fisk. I'm more interested in how his case will be used to push for Salvy to make the HOF. He's only got 32 bWAR now but if he can push that up over 40 he'll have a very similar case to Molina including a WS MVP and 4 silver slugger awards. If he doesn't tail off too badly his better offense will offset his arguably worse defense (loving pitch framing). I don't think Salvy is a HOFer but if he hangs on for another few years smashing dingers it's going to be hard to justify keeping him out if Molina is in. The solution of course is to not elect 42 bWAR Molina.
|
|
#
?
Jan 27, 2023 19:41
|
|
|
I dislike adding up wars to compare players.
|
|
#
?
Jan 27, 2023 19:42
|
|
|
zoux posted:Is there a penalty against players who you don't like because fans of the team you know irl won't shut the gently caress up about them So all the Astros?
|
|
#
?
Jan 27, 2023 19:42
|
|
|
Salvy doesn't have anywhere near the narrative Molina has, I don't think he's getting in. Molina shouldn't get in but he will.
|
|
#
?
Jan 27, 2023 19:44
|
|
|
euphronius posted:I dislike adding up wars to compare players. I think Salvy and Molina would have pretty similar cases - single-team catchers that were the face of a World Series winning team. (All of this assumes Salvy can be productive into his late 30s which I doubt).
|
|
#
?
Jan 27, 2023 19:44
|
|
|
WAR underrates catchers because it doesn't take into account a lot of their job like game calling, etc., which is one of the thing Yadi was supposedly really good at so whatever, I'm fine with him being in the hall. So long as he doesn't get in before Posey.
|
|
#
?
Jan 27, 2023 19:59
|
|
|
bawfuls posted:Molina also gets a significant boost from any framing-based value metrics. So the old-school writers will like his "intangibles" and "field general" reputation and newer voters will like his framing to put him over the top. Yeah fWAR (which incorporates framing metrics for catchers) has Molina pegged at 55 fWAR vs 42 bWAR. 55 is much closer to the soft 60 WAR floor for Hall entry and combined with the narrative I think he's a lock to get in eventually. Popete posted:Salvy doesn't have anywhere near the narrative Molina has, I don't think he's getting in. Molina shouldn't get in but he will. Perez is a hall of pretty good guy but I don't see any way he gets into the HoF without absolutely popping off for a couple years in his 30's.
|
|
#
?
Jan 27, 2023 20:01
|
|
|
STAC Goat posted:So all the Astros? You know a lot of Astros fans irl? One of my best friends is an extremely aggressive Cardinals fan even though he's lived his whole life in Texas and he never shuts up about how great yadi molina is and I've been negatively polarized against him. Also gently caress the Cards, I hate the goddamn Cards.
|
|
#
?
Jan 27, 2023 20:06
|
|
|
zoux posted:You know a lot of Astros fans irl? The numbers have become surprising over the last few years. Never discount the appeal of a trolling narrative or weird cross-section appeal I guess. And just plain bandwagons I suppose.
|
|
#
?
Jan 27, 2023 20:08
|
|
|
Do you live in NYC? That's crazy, I figured there would be like zero at this point
|
|
#
?
Jan 27, 2023 20:11
|
|
|
Perez is the kind of guy who absolutely should get a team hall of fame shrine
|
|
#
?
Jan 27, 2023 20:13
|
|
|
Peaceful Anarchy posted:Imagine thinking any catcher is for sure first ballot when Piazza took four years and Ivan Rodriguez only barely got in first ballot. The BBWAA being wrong in the past isn’t an excuse for them to be wrong in the future.
|
|
#
?
Jan 27, 2023 20:16
|
|
|
Sydin posted:Perez is a hall of pretty good guy but I don't see any way he gets into the HoF without absolutely popping off for a couple years in his 30's. Absolutely. My argument is not that Salvy deserves to make the HOF but that putting Molina in draws a very low bar for entry. It's Harold Baines all over again.
|
|
#
?
Jan 27, 2023 20:17
|
|
|
How is everyone forgetting the true Hall of Fame catcher from that era, Russell Martin???
|
|
#
?
Jan 27, 2023 20:17
|
|
|
BigDumper posted:The BBWAA being wrong in the past isn’t an excuse for them to be wrong in the future. We must break the cycle of BBWAA violence. As a first act of healing, every voter must be forced at swordpoint to check the box for Dave Stieb, entering him as the second unanimous HoF candidate.
|
|
#
?
Jan 27, 2023 20:19
|
|
|
As someone that has only followed baseball closely for the last 15 years or so, its interesting to see guys that I watched come into the sport and approach the twilight of their careers and see if what side of the hall of fame discussion line they end up on. It's interesting to look at the active WAR leaderboard and figure out who is in, who would be in if they were just average players for the remainder of their years, etc. It also made me learn that Jose Ramirez is not like 36 years old but in fact just 30, he is a month older than Harper and two months younger than Machado. I feel like he doesn't get nearly as much discussion around him as those two because he didn't come into the majors and immediately start mashing at 19 but has put up more 6+ WAR seasons than either of them.
|
|
#
?
Jan 27, 2023 20:25
|
|
|
Pitch framing is bullshit
|
|
#
?
Jan 27, 2023 20:27
|
|
|
Sydin posted:We must break the cycle of BBWAA violence. As a first act of healing, every voter must be forced at swordpoint to check the box for Dave Stieb, entering him as the second unanimous HoF candidate.  I am 100% on board with this plan.
|
|
#
?
Jan 27, 2023 20:29
|
|
|
zoux posted:Do you live in NYC? That's crazy, I figured there would be like zero at this point Its New York City. There's a bit of every one here. And when a fanbase gets loud it gets loud. There's also a certain aspect of bandwagoning and trolling that I think appeals to some. There's also the occasional person who seems to really jump on ideas like "fake news" and stuff like that. There's also weird stuff. Like I know someone who's favorite player was Andy Pettitte growing up so they already followed the Astros a little when he went there. So then one day they're like "So why do the Yankees suck all the time now and how come everyone's making up stuff about the Astros?" Fandom isn't rational and doesn't follow geographic rules. STAC Goat fucked around with this message at 20:37 on Jan 27, 2023 |
|
#
?
Jan 27, 2023 20:30
|
|
|
Good Dog posted:It also made me learn that Jose Ramirez is not like 36 years old but in fact just 30, he is a month older than Harper and two months younger than Machado. I feel like he doesn't get nearly as much discussion around him as those two because he didn't come into the majors and immediately start mashing at 19 but has put up more 6+ WAR seasons than either of them. Ramirez is probably the most underrated (or at least, under-talked about) player in the league right now. He's quietly on a comfortable HoF pace unless he falls way off in his 30's.
|
|
#
?
Jan 27, 2023 20:40
|
|
|
Sydin posted:We must break the cycle of BBWAA violence. As a first act of healing, every voter must be forced at swordpoint to check the box for Dave Stieb, entering him as the second unanimous HoF candidate.
|
|
#
?
Jan 27, 2023 21:04
|
|
|
Crazy Ted posted:Occupy the HoF and refuse to leave until the BBWAA is disbanded. Most of the worst HoF-related stuff is the Hall itself's doing, they mostly use the BBWAA as a shield for it.
|
|
#
?
Jan 27, 2023 21:42
|
|
|
Nissin Cup Nudist posted:Pitch framing is bullshit 100% the biggest reason for robo-umps. Get rid of this stupid garbage. The other reason is to remove umps entirely and therefore never allow a batter to call time.
|
|
#
?
Jan 27, 2023 21:58
|
|
|
Leaping back to a post from like six or seven pages ago re: Ozzie Smith, from 1982 to 1992 the guy had a 96 OPS+ at a time where like only two shortstops could hit at all. And he was the best fielder in baseball history. He had no power but he got on base, he was a great baserunner, he slapped lots of doubles. There's nothing remotely questionable about his greatness, he approached 80 WAR.
|
|
#
?
Jan 27, 2023 22:01
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/jeffpassan/status/1619077560805064704?s=46&t=_8UjfMV6E8vPGrHUn1p25w
|
|
#
?
Jan 27, 2023 22:01
|
|
|
Oh hell yeah. Really glad McNeil is getting that extension. e: and I'm glad someone came to defend Ozzie's honor. Dude had like 45 oWAR during his career! He was a very good hitter for a shortstop in his historical context! habeasdorkus fucked around with this message at 22:04 on Jan 27, 2023 |
|
#
?
Jan 27, 2023 22:02
|
|
|
I appreciate all the catcher chat because it prompted me to watch videos of Ivan Rodriguez destroying baserunners. He was so loving cool.
|
|
#
?
Jan 27, 2023 22:10
|
|
|
Good Dog posted:It also made me learn that Jose Ramirez is not like 36 years old but in fact just 30, he is a month older than Harper and two months younger than Machado. I feel like he doesn't get nearly as much discussion around him as those two because he didn't come into the majors and immediately start mashing at 19 but has put up more 6+ WAR seasons than either of them. Ramirez's 2019 is still so weird to me. I remember Effectively Wild doing a lot of "what happened to Ramirez?" episodes that year. Although, now looking at it, he just had a really lovely first half matched with a strong second half, and it came out to a decent season.
|
|
#
?
Jan 27, 2023 22:15
|
|
|
Sydin posted:Yeah fWAR (which incorporates framing metrics for catchers) has Molina pegged at 55 fWAR vs 42 bWAR. 55 is much closer to the soft 60 WAR floor for Hall entry and combined with the narrative I think he's a lock to get in eventually. bWAR also takes these things into account, fWAR just does it more aggressively. Which one of the two is more accurate is entirely dependent on whichever one best supports the argument you're trying to make.
|
|
#
?
Jan 27, 2023 22:29
|
|
|
At the start of 2016, Ramirez was on his way off Cleveland's roster and Juan Uribe was the starting third baseman. Then Juan took a ball to the groin and Jose was forced to become the main guy, somehow becoming a legitimate MVP vote getter along the way.
|
|
#
?
Jan 27, 2023 22:31
|
|
|
Shiroc posted:Then Juan took a ball to the groin
|
|
#
?
Jan 27, 2023 22:35
|
|
|
Criminal Minded posted:Leaping back to a post from like six or seven pages ago re: Ozzie Smith, from 1982 to 1992 the guy had a 96 OPS+ at a time where like only two shortstops could hit at all. And he was the best fielder in baseball history. He had no power but he got on base, he was a great baserunner, he slapped lots of doubles. There's nothing remotely questionable about his greatness, he approached 80 WAR. This is what an automatic Hall of Famer looks like, sorry haters https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6-BgGHQt24
|
|
#
?
Jan 27, 2023 22:36
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 28, 2024 16:16 |
|
|
Criminal Minded posted:Leaping back to a post from like six or seven pages ago re: Ozzie Smith, from 1982 to 1992 the guy had a 96 OPS+ at a time where like only two shortstops could hit at all. And he was the best fielder in baseball history. He had no power but he got on base, he was a great baserunner, he slapped lots of doubles. There's nothing remotely questionable about his greatness, he approached 80 WAR. The difference, of course, being that Brooks didn't end up on the Orioles because of a dumb trade (sorry Padres fans).
|
|
#
?
Jan 27, 2023 22:40
|
|