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Xiahou Dun posted:Does it help her that she fought against it if this going public is used as a defense at trial? The waiting is becoming far too ponderous.
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Jan 25, 2023 04:44
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Dr. Faustus posted:She made it clear she wanted to keep the report secret for now to protect, not her department, but others who may/will be charged or called to testify. She concluded with the words, "Decisions are imminent," which is encouraging. Makes it sound like she is about to make moves and doesn't want her secrets revealed until the right time (the actual Grand Jury that will convene by... May?) Her department probably does need some time to finish things up but how much? A few weeks? A month? Probably not six months, I think. I can see the judge taking a couple of weeks to decide and then ordering the report released and then staying the order two weeks or a month to allow for the parties to file appeals or whatever. The next grand jury sits in March according to a podcast I was listening to earlier so, maybe that’s about right?
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Jan 26, 2023 03:51
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Xiahou Dun posted:ferret chat They had to ban ferrets bc they're a threat to the most precious native NYC animal, the rat
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Jan 26, 2023 05:12
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slurm posted:They had to ban ferrets bc they're a threat to the most precious native NYC animal, the rat Yes but also they’re like long, stupid cats which is amazing.
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Jan 26, 2023 05:39
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Xiahou Dun posted:Yes but also they’re like long, stupid cats which is amazing. With the personality of a three year old hopped up on Pixie Sticks and crack.
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Jan 26, 2023 14:36
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e: wrong thread
OgNar fucked around with this message at 06:15 on Jan 28, 2023 |
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Jan 28, 2023 05:58
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OgNar posted:e: wrong thread You love to see it in the wild. Hey folks just dropping in. I think the last time I was here a mod may have clarified talking about “mattering” in of itself is not probatable, there might be value in discussing it. Anything mattered yet? I think I’ve asked this a bunch in the intervening years since 2016 and the response on the internet has been nothing but a bunch of sniveling salivating terminally online nerds shouting “YOU’LL SEE IT’S SO OBVIOUS IT’S ALL GOING TO MATTER AND THERE WILL BE CONSEQUENCES” every year since 2016 Anything mattered yet? Is this a “low value post”? What is the meaning of value and life itself?
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Jan 29, 2023 06:17
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Inner Light posted:You love to see it in the wild. What specifically counts as “mattering” for this discussion. Like actual criteria.
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Jan 29, 2023 06:22
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Xiahou Dun posted:What specifically counts as “mattering” for this discussion. A consequence that actually impacts the life and future of Trump
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Jan 29, 2023 06:23
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Working backward from the question just lets the interlocutor establish that the only thing they will accept as "mattering" is whatever hasn't happened, often also expressed in vague terms. In that way, discussion can always be dismissed and derailed.
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Jan 29, 2023 07:17
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Xiahou Dun posted:What specifically counts as “mattering” for this discussion. It is so obvious as to draw into question the good faith attitude of the forums user asking for the definition of the word
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Jan 29, 2023 07:20
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Haha back to this again. The pedants will just keep asking "what does Mattering mean to you?!" and when you say anything at all, they roll their eyes and start yelling about goalposts to the strawman they've built of you. "Mattering" is like porn: you know it when you see it and folks, I ain't seen jack poo poo yet that looks like anything mattering whatsoever so far. I guess we'll see once the special investigator announces that he searched for months and months and whoops wouldn't ya know it, we should probably indict him but no high level prosecutor is gonna risk it to indict so oh well, America!
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Jan 29, 2023 07:42
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mutata posted:Haha back to this again. The pedants will just keep asking "what does Mattering mean to you?!" and when you say anything at all, they roll their eyes and start yelling about goalposts to the strawman they've built of you. 
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Jan 29, 2023 07:46
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Again, the only consequence Donald Trump will ever face for anything is his own inevitable death from natural causes and the only person that it punishes is Donald Trump because it will take away his ability to continue being alive and inflicting harm on other people and getting away with it.
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Jan 29, 2023 07:50
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I mean, Trump is an embarrassment, a confirmed loser, a has-been and a bad bet that has burned took many bridges. I consider those facts to be direct consequences. Good i hope this post ages well.
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Jan 29, 2023 08:32
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Judge Schnoopy posted:A consequence that actually impacts the life and future of Trump Oh, in that case, tons of mattering has mattered. His Trump Foundation was dissolved and he was fined two million dollars for illegally misusing funds. The Trump Organization was fined 1.6 million for tax fraud. Also: quote:At the same time, New York Attorney General Letitia James is suing Trump and the Trump Organization, alleging they misled banks and others about the value of its many assets, including golf courses and skyscrapers — a practice she dubbed the “art of the steal.” He decided to withdraw a lawsuit against the abovementioned James after a Florida judge fined him and his lawyer ~ a million dollars for frivolous lawsuiting. quote:Citing Trump's recent legal action against the Pulitzer Prize board, New York's attorney general, big tech companies and CNN, he described Trump as "a prolific and sophisticated litigant" who uses the courts "to seek revenge on political adversaries." New York Manhattan DA's office has also apparently reopened the Stormy Daniels hush money case, which may prove to be a state-level felony charge (and thus unpardonable by any future president). So yeah, there's some mattering happening, and a lot of things the naysayers said would never happen, like the House Jan 6 investigation making a criminal referral to the DOJ, has in fact happened. And it doesn't help that Trump can't find a single reputable lawyer worthy of the title to take any of his cases (thus why they all keep getting fined or indicted themselves).
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Jan 29, 2023 08:38
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mutata posted:Haha back to this again. The pedants will just keep asking "what does Mattering mean to you?!" and when you say anything at all, they roll their eyes and start yelling about goalposts to the strawman they've built of you. I kind of have three separate categories of Mattering that I think ... ironically, matter Mattering I: took power out of Trump's hands, directly denying him the opportunity to use and abuse powers of office Mattering II: corroded or destroyed Trump's ability to control and influence things, undoing his legacy, making him a liability, etc Mattering III: literally anything that makes it so that there's meaningful lived consequences for his repeated crimes and abuse of power. Without this one, he's still ahead because he got to do all of these things and not have his life of indolent luxury impacted in the slightest, and he still gets to live it rich I think you need Mattering III to finalize The Mattering, and if you don't get that we've basically learned that presidents get free reign to try out almost whatever conspiratorial criminal bullshit and abuse of power they want with no liability because it will be immediately forgiven afterwards for the sake of national unity or healing or some concept like that.
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Jan 29, 2023 09:25
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Oracle posted:Oh, in that case, tons of mattering has mattered. Yeah so I understand that the potential consequences coming up in these cases are huge, like not being allowed to do business in NYC anymore. I really hope that comes through! But as I read this list, I see 2.8 million in fines. That's it. Yes, reputation and finding a lawyer and withdrawing cases when his #1 power is suing people are all signs of a consequence, but it's not written into court documents yet. 2.8 million to a guy who scammed hundreds of millions out of the GOP every year isn't going to change this guy's day to day life. He's still running his new campaign to be president again.
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Jan 29, 2023 14:41
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Judge Schnoopy posted:He's still running his new campaign to be president again.
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Jan 29, 2023 15:22
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Dr. Faustus posted:Is he? He just visited New Hampshire and North Carolina. I don’t think turnout was great though. Edit: ok I guess it was good for a New Hampshire GOP invite-only event quote:A New Hampshire GOP representative said Saturday’s turnout was the largest for an annual meeting, at roughly 90%, and hundreds of pro-Trump supporters, including a contingent of Proud Boys, a far-right, neo-fascist group, gathered in the Salem High School parking lot. The annual meeting was an invite-only event. But polls aren’t looking great: quote:However, while Trump boasted that he was far ahead in the polls, the latest poll from the University of New Hampshire places him 12 points behind another Republican presidential hopeful, Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis, in the Granite State. quote:A poll released this week by the conservative South Carolina Policy Council provided some early evidence for Trump’s struggles. Only 37 percent of likely South Carolina Republican primary voters said that the GOP should nominate Trump in 2024, while nearly half — 47 percent — said they would prefer someone else. Oracle fucked around with this message at 15:38 on Jan 29, 2023 |
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Jan 29, 2023 15:24
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Dr. Faustus posted:Is he? He's running it the way he ran his casino
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Jan 29, 2023 15:34
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Discendo Vox posted:Working backward from the question just lets the interlocutor establish that the only thing they will accept as "mattering" is whatever hasn't happened, often also expressed in vague terms. In that way, discussion can always be dismissed and derailed. It seems to me you guys could avoid this back and forth by simply defining what success looks like yourselves and then in the future when anyone asks questions like that you can just point to your standard and easily say whether it happened or not. Like where on the continuum of possible outcomes does success fall: Trump gets bad press, Trump gets suspended from social media, Trump pays a small fine, Trump pays a large fine, Trump loses the 2024 general, Trump loses the 2024 primary, Trump is banned from running in 2024, Trump is bankrupted by fines, Trump goes to rich guy jail, Trump goes to maximum security federal prison, Trump gets executed for treason, Goua'uld technology is used to repeatedly resurrect Trump so he can be executed over and over until his psyche collapses. Just draw a line somewhere in there and then we can easily respond to that guy with "aw no he's still not in prison" or "ah yes you see he's already paid a small fine good job everyone"
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Jan 29, 2023 15:34
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This discourse is why everyone hates internet leftists
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Jan 29, 2023 16:05
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slurm posted:They had to ban ferrets bc they're a threat to the most precious native NYC animal, the rat The building block of the NYC ecosystem. Without the apex predator, Wall Street bankers, would collapse
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Jan 29, 2023 16:42
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VitalSigns posted:It seems to me you guys could avoid this back and forth by simply defining what success looks like yourselves and then in the future when anyone asks questions like that you can just point to your standard and easily say whether it happened or not. This has been done. It proves not fruitful because the people who wander into the thread to stir poo poo just argue with the linked definitions. "Who died and made you definer of mattering."
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Jan 29, 2023 16:43
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I think what people are asking about is the immense amount of hype and fart huffing that has happened in this thread, and the larger Dem establishment talking spaces, about Trump and the GOP will suffer as a result of the election bullshit. People were posting that there were gonna be arrests and consequences for politicos, just hiding behind the screen. When anyone who pays attn to politics and isn't so blinded by ideology would have seen that no, based on history, that poo poo would absolutely not happen. Here's a few examples I pulled from my post history, a very small example because I didn't post much here because outside of being ironic, this might be the saddest thread on the forums Orthanc6 posted:Trump needs to be charged with sedition for the US to survive. I'm convinced this is the only viable path. Meatball posted:It can't be just trump. The GOP had a huge hand in this. This was discussed and planned. There were meetings. Charlie kirk was bragging about paying for busses to transport people, and so was ginni Thomas. Dr. Faustus posted:Look I will entertain the argument treason is too high a bar, but that is only because I accept Oracle's take on it until something more concrete comes along. I suspect it's not so simple, nor completely outside the realm of the possible. That is one thing. Meatball posted:It can't be just trump. The GOP had a huge hand in this. This was discussed and planned. There were meetings. Charlie kirk was bragging about paying for busses to transport people, and so was ginni Thomas. Murgos posted:I think a lot of people will have committed some quite clear crime, I expect that there is a multiple of that though who it will be less clear unless you can show that they were taking the actions they took in furtherance of the organizations goals. That's the level of "Mattering" that was discussed around here without any pushback. Trump and his political cronies going to jail. It was stupid, and ahistorical, and unhinged. Then I posted this which is pretty much what happened Shageletic posted:I think the best case scenario for any prosecutions occurring here is what happened with the Michigan Governor kidnap case Some dumbfuck libertarians getting prosecuted. That's why ppl are confused and posting wtf here. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 29, 2023 16:56
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Xiahou Dun posted:What specifically counts as “mattering” for this discussion. Things I (and I think the majority of the people asking the question) would accept as mattering: 1) Meaningful systemic change that would greatly reduce the chance of similar criminal activities happening again in the future, the potential damage future malfeasance would cause, or at least increase our ability to respond to it quickly and effective. 2) Trump facing criminal consequences or any setting of concrete precedent that engaging in this activity will leave a person who might do it undeniably worse off if they hadn't, delivered by the systems that are intended to do so. (Him getting shot by a random guy he pissed off badly enough would not count, for example) 3) The Republicans taking so much damage politically and in popular sentiment that they are no longer competitive in at least 60% of electoral divisions. So, has anything mattered? Or is this still not good enough for you? As far as I can see, the only thing that looks like its mattered is Trump losing the election, and that feels more like the "random guy shooting Trump" sort of mattering than the type people were actually hoping for - a lucky break, rather than a meaningful change. Blue Footed Booby posted:This has been done. It proves not fruitful because the people who wander into the thread to stir poo poo just argue with the linked definitions. "Who died and made you definer of mattering." You know, I've been following this thread since it opened and I can't actually recall one of these, though I'm sure they must have happened. Please re-share it at least, I'd like to be reminded of what the "it totally mattered!" folks think mattering means. GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 17:29 on Jan 29, 2023 |
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Jan 29, 2023 17:23
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Shageletic posted:I think what people are asking about is the immense amount of hype and fart huffing that has happened in this thread, and the larger Dem establishment talking spaces, about Trump and the GOP will suffer as a result of the election bullshit. People were posting that there were gonna be arrests and consequences for politicos, just hiding behind the screen. When anyone who pays attn to politics and isn't so blinded by ideology would have seen that no, based on history, that poo poo would absolutely not happen. So in other words none of it ACTUALLY mattered and Trump got away with it. We get accused of being naive but the other side is SUPER high on their own opinion section that they've accepted the most middling of shrugs in Trump's direction as "mattering" because someone in the 1830s ALSO once didn't get thrown in jail for sedition so therefore we're "following historical precedent" or whatever pointless parallels they try to draw. Am I naive for expecting Trump to be punished for his obvious and provable crimes? Maybe. But the rest of y'all who get all huffy when we respond with "yeah that doesn't seem like it matters" are pitiful.
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Jan 29, 2023 19:24
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What is matter? Never mind. What is mind? No matter. Good night, son!
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Jan 29, 2023 19:32
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mutata posted:So in other words none of it ACTUALLY mattered and Trump got away with it. Past incidences are a good indicator of present performance, yeah. And 1830s? Lol. I mean Watergate, Iran Contra, Keating Five, etc are right there. Examples of the political system contorting itseld and in fact going out of its way to not only protect but reward its members for corruption. Duke Cunningham, a congressman who literally had a menu of bribery he would hand out , was just pardoned by Trump in Jan 2021. Listen, ignorance is fine. But it ain't healthy! Esp if you're beating your head expecting results that will never, ever, materialize.
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Jan 29, 2023 20:06
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I'd accept jail time, disqualification from holding elected office ever again and loss of so much wealth it changes his quality of life. That'd be a nice mattering. Completely unrealistic though, this country doesn't punish people that get in to the elite tier justice system. He'll get inconsequential pocket change fines that hurt his ego more than anything else, and probably nothing else at all.
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Jan 29, 2023 21:04
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This “define the goalpost” argument is a bad one in this circumstance because in order for a long term discussion to have harmony, the community needs to have shared desires. We all know what would “matter” here, otherwise there would’ve been conflict and pushback whenever someone said “Lock Trump up!” Instead, the pushback usually happens when someone desires deviate.
Automata 10 Pack fucked around with this message at 22:40 on Jan 29, 2023 |
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Jan 29, 2023 21:04
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Did the prosecutions and lawsuits all get dropped? Whether any of this is going to "matter" or not still remains to be seen, because the various processes that could potentially lead to some sort of consequences are still ongoing. These constant "has anything mattered yet" conversations are just impatience. And unfortunately, you're going to have to wait a good while longer, because expecting a judge to save us from fascism or pull us out of a constitutional crisis with the stroke of a pen is almost certainly a sign of overly high expectations. As someone said before, it also depends on your definition of "mattering". Being a made-up phrase, it's essentially meaningless and thus useless for discussion. Instead of spouting lovely meme catchphrases, it'd be more helpful for discussion if people would just specifically ask what they want to know. For example, this? bird food bathtub posted:I'd accept jail time, disqualification from holding elected office ever again and loss of so much wealth it changes his quality of life. That'd be a nice mattering. That's straight-up not happening. By design, it is extremely difficult to permanently deprive someone of the right to run for office. I won't say it's outright impossible, but it's a notoriously difficult path for a prosecutor to pursue, with substantial constitutional constraints. I'd be shocked if the DoJ chose such a risky charge against Trump. So if "Trump barred from political office" is what Mattering means to you, then there won't be a Mattering.
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Jan 29, 2023 21:31
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Shageletic posted:Past incidences are a good indicator of present performance, yeah. Thanks for your response, but I didn't read it. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 29, 2023 21:35
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Main Paineframe posted:Did the prosecutions and lawsuits all get dropped? Whether any of this is going to "matter" or not still remains to be seen, because the various processes that could potentially lead to some sort of consequences are still ongoing. These constant "has anything mattered yet" conversations are just impatience. And unfortunately, you're going to have to wait a good while longer, because expecting a judge to save us from fascism or pull us out of a constitutional crisis with the stroke of a pen is almost certainly a sign of overly high expectations. So like we said: Nothing Trump has done will matter and he will continue living his best life. You just need to say that. "Anything matter yet?" "Nope, nothing yet" lol
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Jan 29, 2023 21:37
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Yeah I'm confused by what is even the argument here. Trump has obviously faced some consequences for his actions. It is also obvious these consequences have not yet been proportional or sufficient. Does anybody actually disagree with either of those statements? I figured the point of this thread was to watch the hearings and then see how far the system can be pushed towards actually holding Trump accountable. So it makes sense that people would drop in to see how far along that process is or whether it has stalled out, and it also makes sense that people who are more dialed in to the incremental progress that has been made would feel like there is progress to report, even if it's tough to be sure of how close to the finish line things are, and whether they will continue incrementally or whether they will peter out.
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Jan 29, 2023 21:48
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Lucasar posted:Yeah I'm confused by what is even the argument here. It’s useful rhetorically for certain groups that there to be no progress or consequences. It’s practically useful to certain groups that folks who want to see consequences are dissatisfied and discouraged ideally to the point of not voting.
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Jan 29, 2023 22:37
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Main Paineframe posted:As someone said before, it also depends on your definition of "mattering". Being a made-up phrase, it's essentially meaningless and thus useless for discussion. Instead of spouting lovely meme catchphrases, it'd be more helpful for discussion if people would just specifically ask what they want to know. For example, this? Or maybe, just maybe, it's not meaningless and useless unless people are being deliberately obtuse? What they want to know is if something mattered, that is it. There are a great many things that might have mattered for most people who ask, including things they might not think to specify, after all. And overall, despite all the responses complaining about how its "essentially meaningless", everyone seems to know exactly what people mean when they ask the question. You certainly seem to, specifically, and yet... and yet you do this. Are you really, genuinely confused? You really can't think of anything that would satisfy these people and actually count as mattering, even hypothetically? Have you ever honestly answered this question with something you thought the person asking it would think "mattered" and been wrong? I loving doubt it. Especially since you have now been given multiple concrete definitions of the term, any of which you could have responded to instead to actually answer the question, and you just... ignore them, in favour of lashing out at ghosts. Really, seriously, how hard is it to just say no and, if you feel like being optimistic, including a mention of the things you think still might?
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Jan 30, 2023 03:53
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Grip it and rip it posted:This discourse is why everyone hates internet leftists We know that there is a large ongoing investigation into Jan 6 who has received all the committee work and has on its own subpoenaed hundreds of people. Including all the fraudulent electors, John Eastman, Patelj and most of the rest of his menagerie. We know that GA has completed its investigation into Trumps attempt to interfere in their election and the DA has suggested that indictments are imminent. NY and NYC have two or three ongoing investigations and trials. One of which Trump recently testified at and plead the fifth hundreds of times. Has all the mattering happened yet? Nope. Does it seem like it’s moving that direction? Yeah, pretty clearly. Murgos fucked around with this message at 04:04 on Jan 30, 2023 |
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Jan 30, 2023 03:53
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Would all the smug "told you so" posters like a medal for predicting that everything is terrible? What even is the point of any of this? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 30, 2023 04:00
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