(Thread IKs:
ZShakespeare)
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The whole "can't direct the police" thing is a distraction to remove political decisions from political accountability. The mayor could write a letter to the police chief expressing concern that the public will lose confidence in the police force if order is not restored to the transit system. IE get uniforms in the subway or you're getting fired.
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Jan 29, 2023 04:34
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They have uniforms on the subways. They've done the thing they said they were doing and TTC is currently crawling with uniformed and plainclothes officers. They just also tweeted a picture with a horse that had nothing to do with it, for some reason. And I, personally, am mad that the mounted division exists at all. We can direct the police so long as the TPS feels like doing what's requested of them. We have no mandate or mechanism to force them to do anything or spend money in any particular way, despite paying for them. infernal machines fucked around with this message at 04:39 on Jan 29, 2023 |
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Jan 29, 2023 04:37
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Yeah my point was about politicians acting as if they're helpless to control the police.
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Jan 29, 2023 04:38
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Counterpoint: Ottawa, one year ago
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Jan 29, 2023 04:40
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COPE 27 posted:The whole "can't direct the police" thing is a distraction to remove political decisions from political accountability. Does Toronto Transit have, currently, the same grim reputation as Calgary Transit when it comes to the general feeling of safety? I don't think cops are the solution, but I can see why cities try to use them as one at this point.
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Jan 29, 2023 04:46
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I have no idea what kind of reputation Calgary Transit has, but in the last week there were several high profile violent attacks on people on the TTC, which have made the news, and prompted this response. There are daily assaults on transit operators and have been for years, but those don't really make the news. Random ladies getting stabbed and people shoved onto the tracks do though.
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Jan 29, 2023 04:49
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infernal machines posted:I have no idea what kind of reputation Calgary Transit has, but in the last week there were several high profile violent attacks on people on the TTC, which have made the news, and prompted this response. So, roughly speaking, yes. There haven't been any recent high-profile attacks here, but it's not good. I swear COVID has turned people feral.
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Jan 29, 2023 04:51
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Every major metropolitan area is dealing with the same issue, pretending its unique to one specific area is nuts. Everyone is trying the same thing and the same thing isn't working.
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Jan 29, 2023 05:04
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If giving the police more money made us safer, we'd be as safe as we've ever been right now. Presumably we're not, so it doesn't, and maybe we should try something different for a change.
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Jan 29, 2023 05:06
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Look either make everyone a cop or no one a cop, either way we'd be eating better. Then the whole train could stop an assault.
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Jan 29, 2023 05:40
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Waiting for affordable housing and the welfare state to be fixed before doing anything about public safety is lol
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Jan 29, 2023 06:18
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Who is doing that, or suggesting doing that? I mean, arguably you would do a lot more than whatever we've done to date for public safety by fixing the welfare state. But notably we are neither improving public safety or fixing the welfare state. We're putting more police officers on transit. Again, if more police made us more safe, we would be safer than we have ever been. Either we are, and this is all a distraction, or we're not and adding even more police won't actually help. e: Technically, if we had so many police on the TTC that it becomes impossible to enter a station or board a vehicle, it will make it more difficult to be assaulted on the TTC. infernal machines fucked around with this message at 06:32 on Jan 29, 2023 |
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Jan 29, 2023 06:24
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I don't think it's even really arguable that housing people improves public safety. It's practically axiomatically true unless you consider the unhoused to not be members of the public. I will grant that waiting for TPS to see the light and divert their mounted unit funds to TCHC or Habitat for Humanity is fruitless.
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Jan 29, 2023 06:41
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Well, you see, there's the public, and the public that can afford a place to live. And clearly we need to make a distinction here because otherwise we'd be talking about the safety of people sleeping rough in parks, blowing themselves up with hacked together propane heaters, and getting roughed up by police for sleeping on TTC vehicles on a nightly basis, rather than a handful of random assaults that made the news last week.
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Jan 29, 2023 06:46
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The system is broken because the costs are intentionally stratified between the 3 levels of government. (also ACAB) Funding and costs must be shared to have a robust public safety solution. Everything is downloaded to the municipality with zero funding, so they're left flailing with the problem and no way to implement the solution. The solution is a robust network of intervention programs focusing on housing, mental health, drug addiction/decriminalization and straight-up food. apatheticman fucked around with this message at 06:56 on Jan 29, 2023 |
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Jan 29, 2023 06:53
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infernal machines posted:Counterpoint: Ottawa, one year ago I know, I was stuck downtown through most of it. But when city council belatedly grew a backbone the police chief and the protestors were out within days. infernal machines posted:I mean, arguably you would do a lot more than whatever we've done to date for public safety by fixing the welfare state. But notably we are neither improving public safety or fixing the welfare state. I would absolutely support higher taxes and an actual welfare state, and yes it would decrease crime but it's never gonna happen because it doesn't please the rich. infernal machines posted:Again, if more police made us more safe, we would be safer than we have ever been. Either we are, and this is all a distraction, or we're not and adding even more police won't actually help. They don't make us safer in a vacuum, but they do contribute to overall levels of safety when they aren't busy doing their own crimes. We don't need more police - maybe if they stopped beating up homeless people for no reason they would have time to actually irespond to serious crimes - and we probably want fewer, but I would like them to actually do their loving jobs instead of sitting in their cruisers having temper tantrums about BLM. I propose stack ranking them and firing the 10% most racist and 10% laziest every year for a few years and see what happens.
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Jan 29, 2023 06:55
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Crow Buddy posted:Municipal cops are creations (largely) of the Province. Alberta just told Edmonton to redo their budget and give the cops what they asked for when they tried to cut back. Same thing happened when Vancouver tried to cut the VPD budget too.
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Jan 29, 2023 07:21
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COPE 27 posted:I would like them to actually do their loving jobs instead of sitting in their cruisers having temper tantrums about BLM [and] beating up homeless people for no reason. You might be confused about the purpose of the police, friend.
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Jan 29, 2023 07:44
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What is their purpose?
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Jan 29, 2023 07:50
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Ever tried to direct traffic without a loaded gun? It's impossible.
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Jan 29, 2023 09:40
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COPE 27 posted:What is their purpose? Social order dictated by the wealthy
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Jan 29, 2023 09:53
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COPE 27 posted:…I would like them to actually do their loving jobs instead of sitting in their cruisers having temper tantrums about BLM. The problem is they are doing their jobs, it’s just that their job is to protect capital, not people. The rest of the time they’re just burning daylight waiting for an opportunity to do their jobs. A broken institution that cannot be reformed only destroyed.
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Jan 29, 2023 13:21
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apatheticman posted:Every major metropolitan area is dealing with the same issue, pretending its unique to one specific area is nuts. Agreed. And I don't think there's a great deal of question about how we got here, or what to do to solve the problem long-term. The question still arises: what do you tell someone who supports all of these necessary social programs but is concerned about their safety on the transit system today during their commute? We've hosed up and ignored the problems for a long, long time, and we can certainly discuss how to unfuck them on the same relative timescale, but people have real concerns about the immediate future.
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Jan 29, 2023 15:27
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eXXon posted:https://twitter.com/TPSMounted/status/1618719217146109983 Sorry, are they describing a mounted cop as a Public Health First Responder? Making an assumption on the PH. COPE 27 posted:What is their purpose? To enforce the will of the state, as directed by oligarchs, through the use of state-sanctioned violence. Anything else they might do, such as investigating crime, is purely incidental.
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Jan 29, 2023 15:32
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Tell them random acts of violence and crimes of opportunity will happen regardless of how many uniformed officers are wandering around the transit system. I've been riding the TTC almost daily for 14 years, I don't feel safer because there's now someone in uniform on 1/3rd of the vehicles I travel on, because to the extent that there's a problem, it's just going to manifest itself where they aren't. This is taking a few aspirin for a gaping head wound. We're spending a lot of money, but we're not fixing anything. infernal machines fucked around with this message at 15:39 on Jan 29, 2023 |
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Jan 29, 2023 15:36
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Fidelitious posted:Sorry, are they describing a mounted cop as a Public Health First Responder? Making an assumption on the PH. Police horse.
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Jan 29, 2023 16:17
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COPE 27 posted:What is their purpose? 
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Jan 29, 2023 16:26
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I don't think it's accurate or meaningful to state that the purpose of police is to serve the interests of capital. Who benefits from police doing nothing about white collar crime? Certainly not the capital "owners" who have their RRSPs wiped out by fraud. Who benefits from allowing commerce to be shut down by covidiots? Certainly not business owners in downtown Ottawa, or trucking companies in Coutts. Who benefits from police being lazy sacks of poo poo that absorb tax revenue and don't actually investigate crimes? Certainly not the businesses who lose potential profits due to either direct taxes or taxes on their customer base. I think it's far more accurate to say that the "purpose" of the police is the perpetuation of more police, same as any other organism. In their particular ecological niche yes this does often (not always) serve the powerful - imo more so the Lindian overclass rather than capital per se - but it also have some other effects such as occasionally arresting murderers and somewhat maintaining public order. I agree with less funding for police and more for social services, but I think some level policing is a necesarry part of living in a large, complex society. I think racialized / poor / etc. people are actually doubly victimized by the current state of policing, directly by harassing them and violating their rights, and inderctly by not actually protecting them from crime or affording them what measure of justice is possible after the fact. Leovy's Ghettoside is a really good demonstration of this dynamic. COPE 27 fucked around with this message at 19:06 on Jan 29, 2023 |
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Jan 29, 2023 18:59
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Every time I've ever seen a mounted cop the horse is either currently pissing and making GBS threads or is walking away from the pile of poo poo it made. Absolutely insane that they get to leave massive piles of poo poo in public without having to clean up after themselves and they don't even do anything that bikes couldn't do other than trample protesters And also more cops on the TTC is bullshit, they know full well that it's just a band-aid over a much worse societal problem that isn't being tackled because it costs money that could otherwise go to paying six-figure wages to police cadets BattleMaster fucked around with this message at 19:46 on Jan 29, 2023 |
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Jan 29, 2023 19:44
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PT6A posted:The question still arises: what do you tell someone who supports all of these necessary social programs but is concerned about their safety on the transit system today during their commute? Christ dude this is the liberalism 101 response. We can't fix problems we have problems now! There is no answer, no amount of bodies is going to make these people feel safe. Sorry, it's going to be the way it is until we actually do something to get people off the streets and off drugs, even then people are going to be assholes because guess what? Crime loves places where people gather. apatheticman fucked around with this message at 19:54 on Jan 29, 2023 |
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Jan 29, 2023 19:52
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How about someone actually comes to help when people hit the emergency button during an assault?
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Jan 29, 2023 19:58
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apatheticman posted:Christ dude this is the liberalism 101 response. Okay but this time without going "these people"
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Jan 29, 2023 20:00
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even having a cop right next to you isn't a guarantee of safety anyway. sure, it's way less likely some random act of violence will happen to you personally, but if one does you're now in a violent situation that an ego-fueled police officer is trying to control, so your odds of escaping unscathed are drastically reduced.
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Jan 29, 2023 20:17
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Cool Kids Club Soda posted:Okay but this time without going "these people" These people actually referred to the people complaining.
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Jan 29, 2023 20:18
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The police are great for showing up 6 hours after the assault to shrug their shoulders.
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Jan 29, 2023 21:18
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I am trying to think of when this thread becomes more of an insufferable cess-pool than when it talks about the police, but I am drawing a blank.
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Jan 29, 2023 22:05
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Tsyni posted:I am trying to think of when this thread becomes more of an insufferable cess-pool than when it talks about the police, but I am drawing a blank. Personally, I blame the police But to engage your point, it's more insufferable when people start trying to discuss our relation to American foreign policy and international conflicts that don't directly involve Canada.
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Jan 29, 2023 22:18
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delete all police, replace with people trained to be like columbo
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Jan 29, 2023 22:47
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Tighclops posted:delete all police, replace with people trained to be like columbo I don't know if Canada can produce enough chili in a year to support that idea.
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Jan 29, 2023 22:49
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Tsyni posted:I am trying to think of when this thread becomes more of an insufferable cess-pool than when it talks about the police, but I am drawing a blank. Did you miss the time the vegan guy tried to explain that maybe there are some downsides to meat
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Jan 29, 2023 22:53
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