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Cleretic posted:I don't think it's a weird thing to count at all. The entire Empire is built on his lies after possessing Solus. Even now, we know that Garleans still have faith in the image, ideals and identity he put forward--all of which were lies specifically crafted to make an empire capable of blowing up the world. And if Emet's word about Allag can be trusted (which you are asserting it can be), it wasn't even the first time he did that. You're assuming that his role as Solus was a lie. The most consistent read is that it wasn't, that as much as it was a tool for Ascian manipulation he also genuinely tried to improve the lives of the Garlean people. He went native for a while, it's his whole thing. SirSamVimes posted:There's also the fact that he may or may not have a deathwish after all this time. If he wanted he could easily just take a nap for a hundred years or so and resume his plans once you die of old age, but fighting you will either move their plans forward one step or let him finally put down his burden. Very explicitly past Emet says that he would have literally invited his own downfall by calling you there. He has no reason to, and past Emet is as horrified by the implication that he would give up on his duty to his people and functionally commit suicide by WoL, even subconsciously, as he is by his future actions. Jetrauben fucked around with this message at 08:58 on Jan 29, 2023 |
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Jan 29, 2023 08:55
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Taking a nap for a hundred or three years might not even work. The Ascians have always relied on the civilizational reset of the calamities to cover their tracks, but without one the Scions and others know about them and can thus be both forewarned about their machinations and also possibly devise countermeasures against them, such as white auracite. Think about it the Scions (and their progenitor organizations) knew about the Ascians for only a few years and managed to devise a way to permanently kill some of them. What could we do with much more time to prepare?
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Jan 29, 2023 09:09
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Galaga Galaxian posted:Taking a nap for a hundred or three years might not even work. The Ascians have always relied on the civilizational reset of the calamities to cover their tracks, but without one the Scions and others know about them and can thus be both forewarned about their machinations and also possibly devise countermeasures against them, such as white auracite.
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Jan 29, 2023 09:17
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Lord_Magmar posted:Emet straight up recognises you are Azem the first time he sees you in Shadowbringers, even if he's in denial. That's why he wants you to join him, he wants his friend back and you're the closest thing he's got in a long time. I think he knows (albeit in denial) that Azem would be horrified at what he's doing, and that's a big part of why he ends up going for suicide by WoL
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Jan 29, 2023 11:52
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Whenever this argument comes by, does it actually sway anyone? Because I feel like we are just on repeat here
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Jan 29, 2023 13:29
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Electric Phantasm posted:FFXIV-2 Starring Kan-E, Merlwyb, and Nanamo. yes yes yes 100 times yes.
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Jan 29, 2023 13:31
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Was Solus intended to be an anagram of souls or is that just an English coincidence
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Jan 29, 2023 15:33
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Itd be funny if we weren't actually affiliated with Azem at all and the ancients are just doing the aetherial soul equivalent of mistaking someone for a celebrity they look like
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Jan 29, 2023 15:43
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Cleretic posted:I personally have a mental image of 'my' Azem, but they basically only exist as sort of a protest against everything I dislike about both Azem OCs and the Ancients. Her name was Echidna, she solved problems by creating purpose-built crimes against nature, any time she turned up was absolutely horrifying, and the very notion that she had friends or allies warrants some level of cosmic condemnation on those people. I haven't nailed down how exactly individual people felt about her, which of the Ancients we'd met would've put 'friend' in air-quotes when referring to her. This is really funny because I don't ever read the OF, so the only OC Azems I'm familiar with are from Twitter and RPers in my FC, and by far the single most common shared trait among them that isn't something established by the game itself are that Azem was actually a terrifying cosmic horror. Well, that's the second most common trait, the most common is that they have a vaguely classical Greek name that is absolutely not any of the three you mentioned earlier that would make sense as a canon name for Azem and are apparently super common among OF OCs. Edit: to be fair, they more often than not are able to keep their horrifying aspects under wraps enough to still be in a polycule with Emet and Hyth, so at least you didn't check that box. Theris fucked around with this message at 16:57 on Jan 29, 2023 |
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Jan 29, 2023 16:48
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I think it makes a lot of sense on a first run to assume emet-selch is lying because one thing he's certainly not doing is acting in good faith. he shows up and tells you he wants to seek common ground, come to understand what drives of the hero of the source, and see if your motives are truly incompatible. none of those statements seem very plausible (it's very obvious what your motives are, on account of all the calamities), and by the time he reveals he wouldn't consider it murder to kill you, they all seem pretty fishy. and then in his undersea mind palace he rages at you about how you're being monstrously irrational if you think him killing everyone you know and love is anything like the final days killing everyone he knows and loves. also then he goes on and on about how pathetic and inadequate you all are in the same breath that he admits that the exarch has accomplished a feat well beyond the means of the ascians. he spends a lot of time not technically lying, but his stated reasons to accompany you are obvious bullshit, which doesn't really engender trust. also he's a tsundere, and isn't a lie of the heart like that the most fundamental lie of all? Valentin fucked around with this message at 16:53 on Jan 29, 2023 |
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Jan 29, 2023 16:51
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FuturePastNow posted:Was Solus intended to be an anagram of souls or is that just an English coincidence It is almost certainly intended to be the Latin word solus, which means "alone".
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Jan 29, 2023 17:02
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Theris posted:This is really funny because I don't ever read the OF, so the only OC Azems I'm familiar with are from Twitter and RPers in my FC, and by far the single most common shared trait among them that isn't something established by the game itself are that Azem was actually a terrifying cosmic horror. Amusingly just today I've ended up working out what my WoL OC's Azem is like. Specifically due to watching Puss in Boots the Last Wish and the opening in particular. The energy of Fearless Hero is exaclty the energy of Azem(Apollo). Which is notable because my actual WoL is not like that at all, the only simularity is the heroism.
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Jan 29, 2023 17:10
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Jetrauben posted:You're assuming that his role as Solus was a lie. The most consistent read is that it wasn't, that as much as it was a tool for Ascian manipulation he also genuinely tried to improve the lives of the Garlean people. He went native for a while, it's his whole thing. His role as Solus absolutely was a lie. I don't care if, for a brief period, he thought the empire was the tightest poo poo. He started that empire explicitly to cause chaos and ring in a new calamity and that is also how it ended. Calling doing this a role (in the same vein as taking on another persona in a play or tv) is the dumbest poo poo I have seen in a hot minute. Yeah, he took on the role of genocidal autocrat to uplift the heretofore downtrodden garleans and I am 100% certain that he never once gave a speech about how this was all in order to wipe just about everyone out because hmm I wonder how his society would feel about being used that way? Do you think they would be like cool beans, living is bad? Also be explicitly lied about The Burn. Emet Selch will say and do whatever it takes to bring back his lost society. He only doesn't spend Shadowbringers lying to us because he thinks if he gives us the truth then we will come around to his way of thinking. And apparently he is correct for at least some portion of the playerbase.
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Jan 29, 2023 17:42
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Antivehicular posted:Maybe I missed this, but... he directly lies to us for most of Shadowbringers to try and get us to ally with him, saying that the end goal of the Ascians is the Source we know just with full soul density? Lots of "you have everything to gain" language there. It's only after it's made clear that we're not willing to kill other worlds for our theoretical benefit that he admits that, yep, the Source is going into the blender too once the souls are dense enough to make a decent smoothie for Zodiark. I don't know how you interpret that as anything other than a deliberate lie. As I understood that, he explains that later. He was genuine with the 'working together'. I think the idea was 'You understand that rejoining is great and wonderful, you help me perform them, with me making sure you're left alive during them. And than at the end, when we sacrifice EVERYONE ELSE, you get to stay alive, because you are 'worthy'.
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Jan 29, 2023 19:25
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it's not so much that emet-selch would never lie about anything so much as there's a clear distinction between which subjects he would lie about and which he's compelled to be truthful about. his entire thing is preserving ancient civilisation, through bringing it back and through passing on its memory and history, especially when his two closest companions are a man with a history of responding to trauma by lobotomising himself and a kid who doesn't know where he ends and zodiark begins. he can lie about the burn, but he can't lie about amaurot because that'd betray the memory of his people and his duty to keep said memory alive. also, we literally kill the man for wanting to destroy the world. kind of an important bit of his character arc
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Jan 29, 2023 19:26
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Shogeton posted:As I understood that, he explains that later. He was genuine with the 'working together'. I think the idea was 'You understand that rejoining is great and wonderful, you help me perform them, with me making sure you're left alive during them. And than at the end, when we sacrifice EVERYONE ELSE, you get to stay alive, because you are 'worthy'. except you never could have, because as he knows from the moment he first sees you (iirc amaurot-hyth is basically like "oh okay emet definitely knows...lmao"), you're one of the people who absolutely has to die for him to get the world he wants back. like yshtola or whoever is not a big deal to him, but you're the sundered soul of his best friend. There's no scenario where he wins and you live, and he knows it from moment one
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Jan 29, 2023 19:50
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Qwertycoatl posted:I think he knows (albeit in denial) that Azem would be horrified at what he's doing, and that's a big part of why he ends up going for suicide by WoL Elpis also confirmed Emet will deny anything that might embarrass him or belittle him or his precious office.
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Jan 29, 2023 19:52
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Valentin posted:except you never could have, because as he knows from the moment he first sees you (iirc amaurot-hyth is basically like "oh okay emet definitely knows...lmao"), you're one of the people who absolutely has to die for him to get the world he wants back. like yshtola or whoever is not a big deal to him, but you're the sundered soul of his best friend. There's no scenario where he wins and you live, and he knows it from moment one There's no way to get the Azem Hades knew back in the first place. All of the sundered are dead and gone, memories washed away after generations in the lifestream, and there's no recovering them. It's still on the plate to get 3/4 of the ancient world back, those who are a part of Zodiark. The best the rest can get would be memories restored from the convocation stones and the like. If it were even possible for the WoL to ally with Emet-Selch and finish the rejoinings, they're the closest thing Hades would get to their friend back. The WoL's death would be far from assured or necessary.
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Jan 29, 2023 20:03
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:There's no way to get the Azem Hades knew back in the first place. All of the sundered are dead and gone, memories washed away after generations in the lifestream, and there's no recovering them. I think he would assume that WoL is still Azem where it counts in some core atman way, it seems to be a big part of Ancient spirituality. Also, he's just wrong and he knows it on some gut level. Emet is well aware that the people of the present are people, and his creations reflect his true feelings on them - that they are children who need guidance and protection. He's doing something he loathes because he's not emotionally strong enough to accept that the Star has moved on and his people live on as new people, but Amaurot cannot be revived.
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Jan 29, 2023 20:37
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It would in fact be pretty funny if we turned out to have not been Azem so much as "an Ancient who probably could have qualified as Azem in a few centuries if not for the Twitterpocalypse," but I feel the only way this could be funnier is if Hildibrand was confirmed Azem.
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Jan 29, 2023 20:48
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Nessus posted:It would in fact be pretty funny if we turned out to have not been Azem so much as "an Ancient who probably could have qualified as Azem in a few centuries if not for the Twitterpocalypse," but I feel the only way this could be funnier is if Hildibrand was confirmed Azem. I mean, he does do a lot of traveling and solving people's problems, or at least causing problem-solving circumstances to occur
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Jan 29, 2023 22:35
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Antivehicular posted:I mean, he does do a lot of traveling and solving people's problems, or at least causing problem-solving circumstances to occur A Gentleman of Light and a Warrior of Light are two different, if equally important, roles. 
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Jan 29, 2023 22:37
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Nessus posted:It would in fact be pretty funny if we turned out to have not been Azem so much as "an Ancient who probably could have qualified as Azem in a few centuries if not for the Twitterpocalypse," but I feel the only way this could be funnier is if Hildibrand was confirmed Azem. I'd argue that wouldn't be as funny because it's too obvious a joke, but now I'm picturing all the myriad Ancient-fuckers getting kicked out of their imaginary polycule on a canonical level in favor of THAT GUY, and no, that's pretty top-tier. If I may submit a potential alternative on that level: Ilberd.
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Jan 29, 2023 22:48
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Cleretic posted:I'd argue that wouldn't be as funny because it's too obvious a joke, but now I'm picturing all the myriad Ancient-fuckers getting kicked out of their imaginary polycule on a canonical level in favor of THAT GUY, and no, that's pretty top-tier. I cannot think of a more inane writing choice than either of these. Way to completely gut a core emotional beat and theme in favor of Showing Them For Liking the Wrong Dude.
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Jan 29, 2023 22:54
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Azem wasn't defined by succeeding at goals, but by independently perambulating and solving problems through derring-do, even if derring-do wasn't what could solve the Final Days. Azem presumably died historic on the fury road beating blasphemies to death with a cricket bat or similar. Ilberd succeeds at his specific goal at enormous cost. He did succeed, but boy! Hildibrand would come closer because Hildibrand's greatest impairment is being a complete loving dumbass, but he is clearly as good a person as the WoL (and inferentialy Azem) is. But, hopeandjoy posted:A Gentleman of Light and a Warrior of Light are two different, if equally important, roles.
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Jan 29, 2023 23:02
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Nessus posted:Azem wasn't defined by succeeding at goals, but by independently perambulating and solving problems through derring-do, even if derring-do wasn't what could solve the Final Days. Azem presumably died historic on the fury road beating blasphemies to death with a cricket bat or similar. Yeah, this is why I put forward Ilberd more than just spite or comedy. He genuinely does fit the bill to an interesting degree, much like how it retrospectively makes perfect sense that Ysayle of all people was one of Venat's chosen. Azem was a wandering hero of the people who was known for making allies wherever they could find them; if there was ever another person who could've been Azem, Ilberd is genuinely pretty high up there. It just happens to ALSO be very funny.
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Jan 29, 2023 23:12
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Antivehicular posted:I mean, he does do a lot of traveling and solving people's problems, or at least causing problem-solving circumstances to occur This sounds like a great time to remind everyone that Azeyma is, in addition to her other roles, the Goddess of Inquiry. Her arena in Aglaia is even named as such.
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Jan 29, 2023 23:13
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Orcs and Ostriches posted:There's no way to get the Azem Hades knew back in the first place. All of the sundered are dead and gone, memories washed away after generations in the lifestream, and there's no recovering them. is there anywhere in the text where emet says this? Obviously it's how the mechanics work now but for all of 5.0 he 1) very obviously knows you are azem, he says it in the very first cutscene he shows up in on the first and 2) keeps being like "just like in the old days...not that you'd remember haha...unless...?" it's tough because azem wasn't explicitly a thing by 5.0 so he never actually talks about "okay so here's what I hope will happen with all my friends who got sundered and WEREN'T part of zodiark" but he's generally pretty full throated that what he's seeking is not merely a 14/14 source but the return of amaurot. (and personally I just think emet's stuff gets kind of unbearably stupid if we're supposed to believe he'd be cool with a 14/14 WoL but is mad about the 8/14 WoL, i.e. if he's not expecting the rejoining to cause some greater change in the source beyond merely aether density. pining for the cultural, aesthetic, and moral superiority of long-lost amaurot is much more compelling and tragic than being like "none of you are real until you can do sufficiently big aether zaps") Valentin fucked around with this message at 23:31 on Jan 29, 2023 |
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Jan 29, 2023 23:25
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Valentin posted:(and personally I just think emet's stuff gets kind of unbearably stupid if we're supposed to believe he'd be cool with a 14/14 WoL but is mad about the 8/14 WoL, i.e. if he's not expecting the rejoining to cause some greater change in the source beyond merely aether density. pining for the cultural, aesthetic, and moral superiority of long-lost amaurot is much more compelling and tragic than being like "none of you are real until you can do sufficiently big aether zaps") I mean, at the end of the day Emet-Selch is such a fascist shithead that he invented in-universe fascism as a means to an end. Of course he drew the conditions of what counts as 'True Humanity and Civilization' to be exactly his people and none of those he considers 'lesser'. Declaring the Sundered to be lesser is just the biologically racist parallel to the cultural racism of his Amaurot superiority. It makes complete internal sense, it's just awful because Emet-Selch is, internally, an awful person.
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Jan 29, 2023 23:41
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Yeah, I think it's pretty important that he (and the rest of the Ascians/Ancients committed to pulping the world for Zodiark) isn't just looking for an aetherically complete world, but specifically the world that was destroyed -- a complete return to the pre-Final-Days status quo both physically and psychologically, which obviously wouldn't have been possible even if the Rejoining had gone off without a hitch, and is especially not possible now that the souls involved have spent 12000 years either in the reincarnation cycle or in nightmarish Zodiark purgatory. On some level, I suspect Emet recognized this, at least for himself: that even if he succeeded, he would never be his past self again, which fueled both massive denial and the death wish that takes him at the end.
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Jan 29, 2023 23:52
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emet realized a long time ago that the sundered were people and that his actions were probably abhorrent, but to acknowledge that would mean giving up on his people and would be catastrophic to his sense of self. this is the whole reason why he digs in and refuses to yield, while also creating opportunities for us to kill him.
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Jan 29, 2023 23:54
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Valentin posted:except you never could have, because as he knows from the moment he first sees you (iirc amaurot-hyth is basically like "oh okay emet definitely knows...lmao"), you're one of the people who absolutely has to die for him to get the world he wants back. like yshtola or whoever is not a big deal to him, but you're the sundered soul of his best friend. There's no scenario where he wins and you live, and he knows it from moment one I don't see that the same way. I mean, as I understand it, even if things go EXACTLY As he wants it, his old friend Azem died and returned to the star then got Sundered. The big 'Resurrection' will bring back those who sacrificed themselves to empower Zodiark (like Hythlodaeus) Everyone else had their soul go in the lifestream and got the old memory bath. He could rejoin the worlds, and find all the bits and pieces of Azem's soul and make sure they're collected, but it wouldn't be Azem. That old friend is lost, but the WoL probably reminds him enough that his sentimental side goes 'Well, what if I get them to work along, and I'll have someone with Azem's soul restored, and they've got some of the same attitudes' What Emet Selch could restore is about 3/4 of the Ancients (A bit less considering this was 3/4th of the Ancients that weren't killed by the Final Days before Zodiark stopped it) that were stuck in Zodiark, which would be plenty to bring back his old world. (And quite frankly, I get the feeling he'd do that and then return to the star afterwards) And in that plan, the Warrior of Light could be let live, if he's playing along.
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Jan 29, 2023 23:57
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Zomborgon posted:This sounds like a great time to remind everyone that Azeyma is, in addition to her other roles, the Goddess of Inquiry. Azeyma whispered, "My precious child, when you saw only one set of footprints, It was then that I was busy providing the backlighting for the shiny version of Hildebrand's pose
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Jan 30, 2023 00:00
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Hildy's second name is Heliodor, a yellow gemstone whose name translates to "gift of the sun." Coincidence?
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Jan 30, 2023 00:05
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Cleretic posted:I personally have a mental image of 'my' Azem, but they basically only exist as sort of a protest against everything I dislike about both Azem OCs and the Ancients. Her name was Echidna, she solved problems by creating purpose-built crimes against nature, any time she turned up was absolutely horrifying, and the very notion that she had friends or allies warrants some level of cosmic condemnation on those people. I haven't nailed down how exactly individual people felt about her, which of the Ancients we'd met would've put 'friend' in air-quotes when referring to her.
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Jan 30, 2023 00:14
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Cleretic posted:I mean, at the end of the day Emet-Selch is such a fascist shithead that he invented in-universe fascism as a means to an end. Of course he drew the conditions of what counts as 'True Humanity and Civilization' to be exactly his people and none of those he considers 'lesser'. Declaring the Sundered to be lesser is just the biologically racist parallel to the cultural racism of his Amaurot superiority. What a weird read.
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Jan 30, 2023 00:28
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Dwesa posted:Yes, I can see Azem as a creator of moogles. My Azem made moogles along with Venat and then also made Chocobos.
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Jan 30, 2023 00:30
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Dwesa posted:Yes, I can see Azem as a creator of moogles. Azem creating Moogles would be a very "Ah, so these are the consequences of my actions" moment given the Churning Mists.
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Jan 30, 2023 01:32
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Azem went out in search of the mystery behind the Pixie -> Beaver change, and that's why they disappeared entirely.
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Jan 30, 2023 01:47
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Cleretic posted:I mean, at the end of the day Emet-Selch is such a fascist shithead that he invented in-universe fascism as a means to an end. Of course he drew the conditions of what counts as 'True Humanity and Civilization' to be exactly his people and none of those he considers 'lesser'. Declaring the Sundered to be lesser is just the biologically racist parallel to the cultural racism of his Amaurot superiority. he invented fascism because it is a disastrous catastrophe of government literally designed to fail and cause chaos edit: Like that is still a heinous thing to do, creating a system of government that's designed to cause international chaos and pain but he absolutely does not believe in fascism. SirSamVimes fucked around with this message at 02:20 on Jan 30, 2023 |
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