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OwlFancier posted:I suppose the difficulty is I don't really have a concept of economics that isn't basically marxist, the idea that you look at the material, provable relations between real things and work from there. An idealistic fascist (and I recognise that it's an ideology that by design contains a lot of room for purely cynical bandwagoning) might well say that they do exactly that. It's just that they have different metrics of what's a trustworthy means of attaining material proof of how the real world works, and different value judgements on how to proceed once they have the facts available to them. Recognising that welfare provides an effective safety net to keep vulnerable people from starving, for instance, can lead you to one of two very different conclusions depending on how your personal worldview and moral compass are aligned. EDIT: Animal tax: 
Darth Walrus fucked around with this message at 16:25 on Jan 30, 2023 |
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Jan 30, 2023 16:13
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Also appealing to narrativistic ideas of the world. A lot of people simply won't believe that we could make the world far better with no downsides if we worked to take apart the hierarchical stratification of society, but will happily believe that we could make it better if we just hosed up certain people really bad.
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Jan 30, 2023 16:13
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His Divine Shadow posted:Speaking about more political / leftist stuff. Been seeing more people sayign fascism has roots in socialism and marx and the like, and if you google it you mostly get right wing sites supporting said conclusion. Anyone know a good source to counter this? I don't know poo poo about the historical origins of that, or if it matters much since fascism has in practice always allied with the right. Strictly speaking fascism does have roots in socialism. Mussolini was a member of the Italian Socialist Party, specifically of the Maximalist wing which was sympathetic to the Bolsheviks in Russia, pre-World War I. He was leader of the Socialist Party bloc in the Milan City Council & actually purged more reformists from the local party. He was arrested in 1911 for speaking out against the imperialist invasion of Libya, he was was well read on Marx & Engels Of course by the time war in Europe breaks out Mussolini is already moving away from egalitarianism & core parts of socialism, & by October he was openly breaking from the PSI to support Italy joining the war to reclaim territory from Austria-Hungary, by November he has founded Il Popolo d'Italia (a paper funded by the French & British governments as they eagerly wanted a new front to open) as a voice for irredentism & militarism. By December 1914 he was denouncing class conflict & had completed his transformation into a nationalist. He claimed to be a nationalist socialist at this point but this is when the core of what would be fascism begins to coalesce around Il Popolo d'Italia & Mussolini. But this is like blaming the Labour Party for Oswald Mosley, or the entire legal profession for Alan Dershowitz. By the time of the March on Rome Mussolini's influences are much more Nietzche & Sorel than they are Marx, Engels & Lenin. Like, maybe there was still some influence in the concept of the vanguard party, but with the concept of class conciousness stripped away it was perverted and replaced by people of any class deemed "dynamic". But I'm not sure vanguardism is even strictly a Marxist concept. Ultimately his time as socialist is interesting from a "huh" perspective but I don't think it really has any significant influence on what came afterwards. It's a disingenuous red herring when right wing people bring it up & deserves to be ignored & treated with contempt. It also really differs nation to nation: socialism had no direct influence on the growth of fascism in Germany, Spain, Romania or Croatia except in that they were a reaction against socialism & communism.
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Jan 30, 2023 16:17
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OwlFancier posted:Also appealing to narrativistic ideas of the world. A lot of people simply won't believe that we could make the world far better with no downsides if we worked to take apart the hierarchical stratification of society, but will happily believe that we could make it better if we just hosed up certain people really bad. A set of paragraphs from Mussolini and Gentile's Doctrine of Fascism is relevant here: quote:4. This positive conception of life is clearly an ethical conception. It covers the whole of reality, not merely the human activity which controls it. No action can be divorced from moral judgment; there is nothing in the world which can be deprived of the value which belongs to everything in its relation to moral ends. Life, therefore, as conceived by the Fascist, is serious, austere, religious: the whole of it is poised in a world supported by the moral and responsible forces of the spirit. The Fascist disdains the "comfortable" life. This ties into what I was saying about fascism not just deriving from a misunderstanding or rejection of reality, but a knowing moral reaction to the facts at hand. It was politics as an art project, rejecting peace, comfort and happiness because it actually considered suffering and struggle towards an unreachable ambition to be more aesthetically appealing. See also, Speer's obsession with 'ruin value' - the Third Reich was literally built to celebrate its own beautiful failure.
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Jan 30, 2023 16:38
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That to me is a rejection of reality, however. Because when it does inevitably collapse there isn't beauty left behind, there are just millions of people dead and millions more in misery. It is a fanciful idea put forward by those who most likely would not live to see the results. It is a rejection of reality the same way shitheads telling you that hardship is "character forming" is a rejection of reality. It is a lie they tell themselves because they aren't willing to face up to the idea that the things they have spent their lives doing, the ideals they have upheld, are simply not useful to others and make them miserable. It is an inability to recognize that other people are real, that their suffering is real, and most importantly that it is likely in response to things that we might have lived our whole lives with but which do not need to be eternal. But instead they are cast as eternal, as things which cannot be changed and for which trying to change them is either foolish or outright reprhensible. It might have some basis in things the adherent observes but there are a lot of people for whom that results in a fundamental rejection of reality, and the substitution of an idea that sounds appealing to them and which interfaces with enough of their observations that they can convince themselves that it is real. Observing that we do not have peace, comfort and happiness and conjecturing therefore that we can't ever have them, as an intrinsic rule of the universe, is rejecting reality as far as I'm concerned. It is observing an element of reality but forming from it conjectures about the holistic nature of reality which are simply not empirically supportable. It is as close to reality as lord of the rings is, in that rings and swords and battles exist but that doesn't mean that orcs and elves and balrogs do. Lots of people start from observing the world but then build their conception of how it works on magical thinking that appeals to them aesthetically. And that's the difference from marxism as I understand it, in that the latter is scientific, it should change and respond to evidence, it should challenge itself, it should be a tool that can help the person who uses it see how the world actually works and help them achieve whatever they set out to do. Which is something that magical thinking can't do because it fundamentally cannot accurately describe the world, it might make the adherent feel better in some way but it will inevitably fail when it runs up against reality because it can't describe or account for reality. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 16:58 on Jan 30, 2023 |
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Jan 30, 2023 16:54
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lol. Literally impossible to find someone to do an investigation into corruption who isn’t part of the Eton/Oxford Chum Complex https://twitter.com/harryyorke1/status/1620084921665753089?s=46&t=cKX3vfOu0gGTR2BWWoq48w
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Jan 30, 2023 17:03
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Only Kindness posted:Speaking of jail, An Occasional Public Service Taxxe Gave them £35 at the start due to very fond memories of Freelancer, but still haven't played the game. 
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Jan 30, 2023 17:03
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Why can't we live in this timeline? Putin, baby, just nuke Davos. 
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Jan 30, 2023 17:41
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I like that it suggests that russia had developed a specific johnson seeking missile.
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Jan 30, 2023 17:45
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OwlFancier posted:I like that it suggests that russia had developed a specific johnson seeking missile. I think Pynchon wrote something about this but I never got to the end
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Jan 30, 2023 17:48
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Does the graun get ALL of it's op-ed writers from the Spectator? Get in the ground already Simon. 
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Jan 30, 2023 17:50
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Diet Crack posted:Does the graun get ALL of it's op-ed writers from the Spectator? The only fatberg is the one in between his ears where his commentariat addled brain should be
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Jan 30, 2023 17:53
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IMO The big picture similarity between Fascism and Socialism is that they are both revolutionary; they both decry a corrupt status quo and offer explanations and narratives to those who are dissatisfied and seeking answers. In this regard Fascism is a cancerous offshoot of Socialism. Mussolini mimicked those revolutionary narratives but attached them to ugly lizard-brain bullshit rather than forming any sort of coherent ideology. also even if you never buy a pixel space ship the UK is shelling out several million pounds of 'tax relief' every year to Chris Roberts, yuck!
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Jan 30, 2023 17:54
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His Divine Shadow posted:Speaking about more political / leftist stuff. Been seeing more people sayign fascism has roots in socialism and marx and the like, and if you google it you mostly get right wing sites supporting said conclusion. Anyone know a good source to counter this? I don't know poo poo about the historical origins of that, or if it matters much since fascism has in practice always allied with the right. Ask them if they know the famous "First they came for..." poem, and then ask them who they actually came for first.
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Jan 30, 2023 18:00
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Comrade Fakename posted:Ask them if they know the famous "First they came for..." poem, and then ask them who they actually came for first. Trap sprung motherfucker that guy was (at one point) a Nazi supporter and an antisemite
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Jan 30, 2023 18:08
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hires corrupt motherfucker despite advice he's a corrupt motherfucker has to get rid as Sleaze Mountain erupts clearly everything I did was right why all the ballyhoo? next, braverman
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Jan 30, 2023 18:11
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:also even if you never buy a pixel space ship the UK is shelling out several million pounds of 'tax relief' every year to Chris Roberts, yuck! Yup, and the UK "company" broadly only exists to be a catchall for "accounting errors" as they embezzle money (all the actual income comes from the US side) from both their customers and the British taxpayer. sebzilla posted:Trap sprung motherfucker that guy was (at one point) a Nazi supporter and an antisemite Um what happened to separating the art from the artist um er
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Jan 30, 2023 18:19
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Diet Crack posted:Does the graun get ALL of it's op-ed writers from the Spectator? The point of the Guardian is to police who is Sensible. Since the average British commentator has gone more and more into frothing lunacy and spite the Guardian's job is to agree with even the most bare figleaf of respectability and encouraging others to hand over their wallet to the wallet inspector to maintain decorum.
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Jan 30, 2023 18:23
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 which one of you wanks is writing a level chemistry papers?
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Jan 30, 2023 18:53
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:IMO The big picture similarity between Fascism and Socialism is that they are both revolutionary; they both decry a corrupt status quo and offer explanations and narratives to those who are dissatisfied and seeking answers. In this regard Fascism is a cancerous offshoot of Socialism. Mussolini mimicked those revolutionary narratives but attached them to ugly lizard-brain bullshit rather than forming any sort of coherent ideology. Yeah, but there were liberal revolutions before socialist ones, USA, Spanish Latin America, France, Haiti, 1848 across Europe. I'd also point out that while Mussolini may have come at it from a revolutionary perspective, the Nazis didn't, the Falange didn't, the Ustase didn't, the BUF didn't, the Unity Party in Hungary certainly didn't as they were formed after the Communist Revolution there was overthrown in 1919. The Iron Guard in Romania could be argued to have. But this again comes back to the whole "fascism isn't really much of a cohesive ideology"
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Jan 30, 2023 18:56
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sebzilla posted:Trap sprung motherfucker that guy was (at one point) a Nazi supporter and an antisemite Seems like then he would have a good insight into the relative order of persecution re:socialists and Jews then?
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Jan 30, 2023 19:01
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Failed Imagineer posted:Seems like then he would have a good insight into the relative order of persecution re:socialists and Jews then? Yeah iirc the poem really is just him having a leopards eating faces moment First they came for the Socialists and I was like "gently caress yeah, get 'em lol" etc.
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Jan 30, 2023 19:29
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sebzilla posted:Yeah iirc the poem really is just him having a leopards eating faces moment Yeah the poem is a mea culpa, because: quote:Martin Niemöller was a German Lutheran pastor and theologian born in Lippstadt, Germany, in 1892. Niemöller was an anti-Communist and supported Adolf Hitler's rise to power. But when, after he came to power, Hitler insisted on the supremacy of the state over religion, Niemöller became disillusioned. He became the leader of a group of German clergymen opposed to Hitler. In 1937 he was arrested and eventually confined in Sachsenhausen and Dachau. He was released in 1945 by the Allies.
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Jan 30, 2023 19:33
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smellmycheese posted:Eton/Oxford Chum Complex I think even sharks would turn their nose up at this
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Jan 30, 2023 20:51
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 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-64352634
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Jan 30, 2023 20:52
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That's a lady part. Not sure what you were hovering over here expecting 
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Jan 30, 2023 21:04
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Jan 30, 2023 21:05
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That's nobody's business but the Turks'.
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Jan 30, 2023 21:15
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all hail the inter-dimensional squid
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Jan 30, 2023 21:18
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 The langoliers cometh
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Jan 30, 2023 21:20
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Only Kindness posted:That's nobody's business but the Turks'. Some people ITT are getting to be nearly as old as me.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wcze7EGorOk
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Jan 30, 2023 21:26
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I've been trying for ten minutes now to find out what this is in reference to and I'm absolutely drawing a blank. https://twitter.com/amethystarlight/status/1619728419889242112?t=OUi5Q4dhiiNP6zDTMNU9Dw&s=19
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Jan 30, 2023 21:31
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Jaeluni Asjil posted:Some people ITT are getting to be nearly as old as me.... They might have heard the They Might Be Giants cover, and just be old rather than very old.
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Jan 30, 2023 21:38
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I think it was on Animaniacs as well
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Jan 30, 2023 21:44
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HopperUK posted:I think it was on Animaniacs as well 30 years ago 
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Jan 30, 2023 21:45
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sinky posted:30 years ago Oh totally, I'm old as hell. Though the talk above bewildered me. I know Sooty, Sweep and Soo but who the gently caress is Scampi
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Jan 30, 2023 21:47
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Bobby Deluxe posted:I've been trying for ten minutes now to find out what this is in reference to and I'm absolutely drawing a blank. They're American and it's something to do with not wearing masks in public places anymore  Working in a hospital I haven't really stopped wearing masks since the start of the pandemic, our clinic still has obligatory masks for patient-facing areas which is basically everywhere. Being out in public without a mask still feels weird, it sucks.
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Jan 30, 2023 21:47
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HopperUK posted:Oh totally, I'm old as hell. Though the talk above bewildered me. I know Sooty, Sweep and Soo but who the gently caress is Scampi Little cousin scampi too
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Jan 30, 2023 21:52
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HopperUK posted:Oh totally, I'm old as hell. Though the talk above bewildered me. I know Sooty, Sweep and Soo but who the gently caress is Scampi the british equivalent of scrappy doo to scooby doo
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Jan 30, 2023 21:53
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It's definitely about immunodeficiency and masks and that bit makes sense, but I cannot find any context for the "co-opt" bit at all. Also "Leftists" could mean anything, but most likely "nominally a US Democrat" i.e. a right-winger, throwing more confusion into the mix.
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Jan 30, 2023 21:54
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