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woke kaczynski posted:Allegedly pathfinding isn't the biggest FPS hit after all, according to Putnam's latest discoveries. quote:The main point I'm getting to is that 1%, 0.687s, is pathfinding. 1%. 1%. I was wrong earlier and I apologize; pathfinding is not a cause of FPS death at all. It is completely irrelevant to the "slow, inevitable" FPS death people complain about. 
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Jan 31, 2023 18:27
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I made my Captain of the Guard an adamantine mace to administer non-lethal beatings, but he just went up and killed a legendary armorer by punching him in the head  I double checked and he's carrying the mace around, too. Just didn't use it.
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Jan 31, 2023 18:49
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so the drains worked! hurray  downside: at least four dwarves decided to go swimming and then drowned while taking a shortcut or something Is this just about the only thing i can do to prevent this? short of walling the river off that is. i may even need to do that so drunk dwarves dont fall in, i guess 
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Jan 31, 2023 19:16
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Just nature taking its course. Don't worry about those fools.
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Jan 31, 2023 19:18
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Nosre posted:I made my Captain of the Guard an adamantine mace to administer non-lethal beatings, but he just went up and killed a legendary armorer by punching him in the head I think only the hammerer will use their assigned weapon for punishments. The fortress guard can be given weapons, which they will use if they end up in combat, but they will always use their fists for beatings. The problem with dwarves is that many of them end up monstrously strong even if they don't actually train martial arts. I've tried having fortress guards who didn't train, but even as amateurs they end up killing visitors convicted of thefts, although steel-clad dwarves are safe. I've had success with staffing the fortress guard only with humans. They are: - faster than dwarves and most visitors, meaning they can catch leaving suspects and can interrogate quicker - so far unable to accidentally kill convicts with beatings when they have no training - just fine with their regular clothing, meaning that they don't need armor sized for them A downside is that the guards will put jailed convicts into cages once their sentence is up. Since humans are weaker than dwarves, it takes them ages to empty the jail if they decide to pick up a heavy leaden cage. Stockpiles with lighter cages help.
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Jan 31, 2023 20:04
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Speaking of steel-clad dwarves, I wanted to make a fort one of these days where every single adult dwarf is a member of a militia and trains 1-2 months out of the year.
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Jan 31, 2023 20:07
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Someone upthread had a bunch of dorms instead of dedicated individual bedrooms and I liked the idea for thematic reasons, but did they assign it as a dorm or assign multiple dwarves to a large bedroom?
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Jan 31, 2023 20:11
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I don’t think you can designate a room with multiple beds as a bedroom, only a dorm
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Jan 31, 2023 20:17
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Are gremlins still a thing? Is "make a gremlin into your hammerer" the solution?
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Jan 31, 2023 20:18
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Benagain posted:Someone upthread had a bunch of dorms instead of dedicated individual bedrooms and I liked the idea for thematic reasons, but did they assign it as a dorm or assign multiple dwarves to a large bedroom? That was me and I assign them as dorms. It still seems like overall my dwarves are much happier with dorms than with individual bedrooms - and I am too because I don't have to dig and furnish hundreds of them e: Seriously - one ~20-30 bed dorm handles all of the sleeping needs of a 200 dwarf fort, somehow. But I tend to add in a few so there's always one nearby.
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Jan 31, 2023 20:25
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wrt pathfinding not being an fps hit, I do think there is a hit when the pathfinding is like, inaccessible but they keep pinging it? I had a fort slow to 5fps because an injured dog had fallen down my stairs into a cavern I hadn't finished building down into yet. Once I built stairs down and it was able to run up into my fort my fps shot back up. That was admittedly a weird edge case though. But yeah, that's some interesting information. Putnam seems really cool and I'm excited that they have someone else working with the code now. (Putnam is she/they btw, I've seen some people refer to them as a he accidentally!  )
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Jan 31, 2023 21:04
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Azhais posted:Putnam mentioned on one of Blind's streams that he was working on threading support, so maybe! Iirc Putnam uses femenine pronouns friend. There might be a “they” in there as well but don’t quote me on that.
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Jan 31, 2023 21:16
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Maybe I'm misunderstanding something fundamental, but I think it's wrong to say pathfinding isn't a big deal: afaik pathfinding checks every tile a dwarf has access to, so in a small tidy fort it's no big deal, but if you give your dwarfs the run of the surface + all 3 caverns it's a lot more significant
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Jan 31, 2023 21:18
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I dunno man, the person who is currently employed at Bay12 and working on identifying FPS problems by working directly with the code seems to think that's not the case.
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Jan 31, 2023 21:34
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Clocks posted:wrt pathfinding not being an fps hit, I do think there is a hit when the pathfinding is like, inaccessible but they keep pinging it? I had a fort slow to 5fps because an injured dog had fallen down my stairs into a cavern I hadn't finished building down into yet. Once I built stairs down and it was able to run up into my fort my fps shot back up. That was admittedly a weird edge case though. Yeah they mention this in the OP of that thread quote:Pathfinding is slow, yes. It's hilariously slow. The thing is, it doesn't happen often at all. When it does, fortresses drop to sub-single-digit FPS levels. This usually happens because you're using tightly closed doors. Don't do that. Presumably this applies to when dwarves are stuck as well
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Jan 31, 2023 21:36
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Kenning posted:I dunno man, the person who is currently employed at Bay12 and working on identifying FPS problems by working directly with the code seems to think that's not the case. I'm just saying, if I unlock all the doors to my caverns my FPS is cut in half. What is that, if not pathfinding?
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Jan 31, 2023 21:41
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Flavahbeast posted:I'm just saying, if I unlock all the doors to my caverns my FPS is cut in half. What is that, if not pathfinding? Putnam would be better suited to answer that question than we would so maybe you should go ask them
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Jan 31, 2023 21:43
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Every step deeper into the abyss they must once again decide if they love all of their acquaintances, individually.
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Jan 31, 2023 21:49
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I'm not looking for a solution, I'm sharing an anecdote also, as far as I can tell the "tightly closed" option for doors no longer exists in the Steam release
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Jan 31, 2023 21:50
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Promontory posted:I think only the hammerer will use their assigned weapon for punishments. The fortress guard can be given weapons, which they will use if they end up in combat, but they will always use their fists for beatings. Yea, the Captain of the Guard doles out the punishments if you don't have a Hammerer assigned (which I don't), so I figured it would be the same mechanically, but I guess not then
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Jan 31, 2023 21:57
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If anyone is looking for baby names, allow me to recommend Fuzzy Pumpkinrhymes.
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Jan 31, 2023 22:47
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Flavahbeast posted:I'm not looking for a solution, I'm sharing an anecdote It doesn't, it was removed based on Putnam's feedback. They are measuring the time that each part of the code takes to run using profiling tools. They have the only objective perspective on the matter.
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Jan 31, 2023 23:04
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FAT32 SHAMER posted:so the drains worked! hurray
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Jan 31, 2023 23:54
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If you never reveal the caverns then all the cavern entities don't populate on the Entities -> Other screen. I think the same is true if you reveal them and then seal it off by e.g. building a wall. There are all kinds of ways that could affect performance without involving pathfinding; it seems to me like if your fort has access to the caverns, cavern entities exist and are tracked in various ways (not just pathfinding but LoS, their needs, etc) which hurts FPS. If you have no access to the caverns, none of those entities need to be tracked at all.
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Feb 1, 2023 00:06
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I wonder what profiling tools they use. I can't help but think this would be an excellent use for dtrace, now that it's in Windows.
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Feb 1, 2023 00:07
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Found one of those 3x3 magma pits in the first cavern layer. Now I'm thinking... can I make a dump zone and assign some iron minecarts to be dumped in there. Will they all fill up from just one tile of magma? HMMMMM.
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Feb 1, 2023 00:23
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So I decided to breach the caverns of my reclaimed fort: This explains the constant "something has collapsed!" warnings that were centered underground. Fortunately its just the first cavern, the other two are fine.
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Feb 1, 2023 00:23
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I had a Goblin seige show up and ask to parley, so my baron went out to have a chat with them. They were demanding we hand over a legendary amulet one of my dwarves made a few years earlier. An amulet that I assigned the Baron to wear. I like to think he flaunted it in front of them before telling them to get bent.
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Feb 1, 2023 00:42
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The funniest thing is that, essentially, their demands come with a threat to kill all of the dwarfs but they don't seem to understand that nothing will kill more dwarfs than the entity in the sky that's designing their bedrooms, waterways, and magma pumps.
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Feb 1, 2023 00:53
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Well, besides cavern dwellers.
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Feb 1, 2023 00:57
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deep dish peat moss posted:If you never reveal the caverns then all the cavern entities don't populate on the Entities -> Other screen. I think the same is true if you reveal them and then seal it off by e.g. building a wall. There are all kinds of ways that could affect performance without involving pathfinding; it seems to me like if your fort has access to the caverns, cavern entities exist and are tracked in various ways (not just pathfinding but LoS, their needs, etc) which hurts FPS. If you have no access to the caverns, none of those entities need to be tracked at all. Are we sure this is true? I've sealed off my caverns and I get updates to its activity all the time. Mostly in the form of Forgotten beasts who fight each other or genocide the caverns of life (fire breathers are the worst). I'll even get "you've struck black diamond!" and such when I dig near a gem pillar, even when there's no way for my dwarves to see or access it. Zeruel posted:This explains the constant "something has collapsed!" warnings that were centered underground. Fortunately its just the first cavern, the other two are fine. Finish the job. 
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Feb 1, 2023 01:46
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I'm not 100% sure if sealing them up works the same way (I avoid opening them in the first place because of the hit to fps), but if you never reveal them you definitely won't get any notices about forgotten beasts or cavern invaders or anything
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Feb 1, 2023 02:22
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deep dish peat moss posted:I'm not 100% sure if sealing them up works the same way (I avoid opening them in the first place because of the hit to fps), but if you never reveal them you definitely won't get any notices about forgotten beasts or cavern invaders or anything How are you avoiding them? DFhack? Farm plot exploit?
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Feb 1, 2023 02:58
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FAT32 SHAMER posted:Update: gave it a go and flooded the base again someone else has probably answered you but I'm not at the most recent page. instead of building fortifications, you smooth the final layer of rock from the edge then carve fortifications into it.
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Feb 1, 2023 03:00
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Are there any materials that make for better armour than steel - aside from the obvious divine metal/adamantite? Like how if you get lucky and get an artifact platinum hammer those make for really, really, good hammers.Technical Analysis posted:I had a Goblin seige show up and ask to parley, so my baron went out to have a chat with them. They were demanding we hand over a legendary amulet one of my dwarves made a few years earlier. An amulet that I assigned the Baron to wear. I like to think he flaunted it in front of them before telling them to get bent. I always say yes to Parleys, wait for the goblins to line up nice and neat; then send my army to race out ahead of the baron to slaughter them all.
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Feb 1, 2023 04:12
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GruntyThrst posted:How are you avoiding them? DFhack? Farm plot exploit? I just set the first cavern layer to be 100+ z-levels down in world gen and deal with not having magma 
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Feb 1, 2023 04:20
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deep dish peat moss posted:I'm not 100% sure if sealing them up works the same way (I avoid opening them in the first place because of the hit to fps), but if you never reveal them you definitely won't get any notices about forgotten beasts or cavern invaders or anything I can definitely say that sealing them up does not prevent them from spawning.  These are kinda cute though (edit): and yeah there's a shitload of forgotten beasts wandering on and off the map down there all the time
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Feb 1, 2023 05:48
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deep dish peat moss posted:I just set the first cavern layer to be 100+ z-levels down in world gen and deal with not having magma If you really don't want to deal with the caverns you can set the number of cavern layers to 0 in world gen. Possibly this messes around with things and makes it so that cavern stuff is unavailable in the whole game? So maybe no silk for example. You can also just tunnel through them without revealing them if you check with the farm plot and maybe a save or two.
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Feb 1, 2023 06:44
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Hi folks! DONT DESIGNATE A GIGANTIC PLANT GATHER ZONE THE SIZE OF YOUR MAP. This generates a ton of jobs that wont ever go away til they're done, even if the zone is cancelled. the only way to get rid of all your dwarves gathering plants forever is to disable plant gathering. 
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Feb 1, 2023 06:59
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One of the first things I normally do is assign 1-2 herbalists and set them as the only ones can go gathering stuff Also, I have a well designated as a water source, and yet I keep getting warnings that Urist McFuckhead is canceling task: drink dangerous terrain because he’s trying to drink from the river at the edge of the map way outside the fort instead of drinking some gd water from the well next to the water fall
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Feb 1, 2023 07:12
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