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Jaeluni Asjil posted:That (not the apartment) is going to come with such a huge list of restrictions and obligations. e: et CXCVIII goones, for maintaining the staires of the hus Guavanaut fucked around with this message at 01:29 on Feb 1, 2023 |
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Feb 1, 2023 01:26
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I love the fact that you can get an entire loving defensible barracks for half a mil. There are three bed semis round here which cost more than that. God, I want it.
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Feb 1, 2023 01:32
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Nothingtoseehere posted:But there was no measures the government could have taken that would have prevented people getting covid and long covid eventually - it's just too endemic for that. Better controls could have spread the curve thinner and limit how many cases happened before vaccination, but as soon as it escaped China everyone was going to catch covid eventually, whenever in 3 months, 2 years or 5 years. Covid became endemic not because it was inevitable, but because the governments of the western world are blood-gargling psychopaths who weighed the death and crippling of untold millions of people born and unborn against the short-term damage to Number that an effective covid response would have caused and made the obvious decision. Every single one of them should be tried for crimes against humanity.
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Feb 1, 2023 01:36
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"until the development of a sterilizing vaccine" is doing an awful lot of heavy lifting, seeing as how we're not there in year 3
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Feb 1, 2023 01:42
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Jaeluni Asjil posted:That (not the apartment) is going to come with such a huge list of restrictions and obligations. ok but when they come to arrest you for not meeting your obligations you're in a massive defensible barracks. checkmate
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Feb 1, 2023 01:42
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Angepain posted:ok but when they come to arrest you for not meeting your obligations you're in a massive defensible barracks. checkmate Boil the oil, serfs! Well even though I made that phrase up I had to Google that didn't I and there's a whole wiki on death by boiling. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_by_boiling Jaeluni Asjil fucked around with this message at 01:55 on Feb 1, 2023 |
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Feb 1, 2023 01:53
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Google Jeb Bush posted:"until the development of a sterilizing vaccine" is doing an awful lot of heavy lifting, seeing as how we're not there in year 3 The point is more that harsher lockdown measures would have granted us more time + less mutations. Lockdowns are a horrible infringement on personal liberty, but in the case of a pandemic enacted in service of a greater goal: the maximum guarantee of survival + overall quality of life going forward. Such a measure inevitably requires macroeconomic sacrifice, and different governments were willing to take that at different levels. This isn't an easy answer, however, as particularly food-exporting nations can't just suck up the economic cost, just as food-importing nations can't suck up the societal (read: potential starvation) cost. The pandemic was never going to be simple; it's not predictable basically by design. That doesn't mean we should forgive the flaws of the global economic system. Even the most ardent capitalist would struggle to defend the global response in terms of outcome.
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Feb 1, 2023 02:13
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Google Jeb Bush posted:"until the development of a sterilizing vaccine" is doing an awful lot of heavy lifting, seeing as how we're not there in year 3
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Feb 1, 2023 02:19
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It was lucky that brexit meant we had control of our borders so we could stay ahead of the pandemic.
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Feb 1, 2023 06:07
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Is he giving or receiving?
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Feb 1, 2023 08:50
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pumpinglemma posted:This is a comforting thing to believe, but I think it’s ultimately wrong. Look at how long China and Australia were able to maintain zero covid for, even after a huge initial wave in China. There is absolutely no reason why other countries couldn’t have done the same thing for a year or two - and without millions upon millions of infected people running around there would have been no delta and no omicron. Covid would either have been eradicated or tightly controlled until the development of a sterilising vaccine, with occasional local lockdowns on detecting a new infection but no major disruption and a global death count in the double digits annually. As soon as Covid left China, it got into pretty much every country in the world - including India and many African ones. We could and should have done a harsh Australia-style border lockdown in the Summer of 2020, after the first lockdown, to stop covid resurging. But doing that wouldn't change the fact that much of the developing world lacked both the strong state and the economic resources to do the same, and they would have become a reservoir for Covid. Whenever we reopened we would eventually got reinfected other populations, even if the whole West joined in. SARS-one was barely controlled, and that only had two major outbreaks - Hong Kong and Toronto. With Covid being actually airborne, and not aerosol spread like the WHO and experts were saying in the early pandemic, total control was impossible because we didn't understand the disease well enough. And if you think that a sterilising vaccine was just a matter of time then you wildly overestimate the competence of modern medical science. It was a loving miracle we had a working covid vaccine deployed within a year of the disease appearing, and required extremely cutting-edge techniques and alot of failures. 10 or even 5 years ago we would not have an effective vaccine at all, no matter the time or money, because the underlying technology just wasn't there. The world is a unhealthier place than it was 5 years ago now, and there's nothing that can be done to change that. We like to think that humanity can control the forces of nature, but microbiology still has us beat and we can only mitigate it, not defeat it.
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Feb 1, 2023 09:28
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pumpinglemma posted:This is a comforting thing to believe, but I think it’s ultimately wrong. Look at how long China and Australia were able to maintain zero covid for, even after a huge initial wave in China. There is absolutely no reason why other countries couldn’t have done the same thing for a year or two - and without millions upon millions of infected people running around there would have been no delta and no omicron. Covid would either have been eradicated or tightly controlled until the development of a sterilising vaccine, with occasional local lockdowns on detecting a new infection but no major disruption and a global death count in the double digits annually. utter bullshit (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 1, 2023 09:58
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NotJustANumber99 posted:utter bullshit I know it's early in the morning but this is shamefully low effort especially given the post above.
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Feb 1, 2023 10:06
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Do we know a sterilising vaccine is even theoretically possible? I thought COVID got established in mucus membranes first, no vaccine can do anything til it hits the bloodstream. And sorry but yes, the West could have done megalockdown in theory (good luck with Americans), at great cost - not just to Number, people have been rioting in China, that's why they changed policy. Omicron develops in China or India. As even totalitarian dictatorship China has now discovered Omicron is going to come sweeping through eventually anyway. feedmegin fucked around with this message at 10:15 on Feb 1, 2023 |
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Feb 1, 2023 10:09
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Tesseraction posted:I know it's early in the morning but this is shamefully low effort especially given the post above. it accurately reflects my disdain for the post and there is no shame about that
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Feb 1, 2023 10:13
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The Perfect Element posted:I love the fact that you can get an entire loving defensible barracks for half a mil. There are three bed semis round here which cost more than that. God, I want it. Its grade 2 listed. If it wasn't protected it would probably go for more. pumpinglemma posted:the governments of the western world are blood-gargling psychopaths TBF, a lot of 'non-western countries' were also perfectly happy to let it run rampant. Mega Comrade fucked around with this message at 10:24 on Feb 1, 2023 |
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Feb 1, 2023 10:17
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feedmegin posted:And sorry but yes, the West could have done megalockdown in theory (good luck with Americans), at great cost - not just to Number, people have been rioting in China, that's why they changed policy. Omicron develops in China or India. As even totalitarian dictatorship China has now discovered Omicron is going to come sweeping through eventually anyway. FWIW the rioting in China is after two years and after a perceived ending of the pandemic and entry into endemic stage, in the context of shite vaccine uptake of an already less effective vaccine this coincided with a massive spike in cases in-part caused by the unrest
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Feb 1, 2023 10:28
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Covid could never have been contained because if governments locked down properly bill Gates would have had no choice but to go on an international doorknob licking tour and do the job himself
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Feb 1, 2023 10:33
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Mega Comrade posted:TBF, a lot of 'non-western countries' were also perfectly happy to let it run rampant. Like Tanzania's covid-denying president who died of covid in 2021 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/17/tanzanias-president-john-magufuli-dies-aged-61
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Feb 1, 2023 10:41
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For most of 2020 and 2021, China's draconian lockdown measures worked, and such 99% of chinese people didn't have to be imprisoned under them. As 2022 went on, more and more cases of Omicron leaked across international borders into China, and required more and more people and places to undergo forced imprisoned in the name of covid control while the systems to supply them collapsed. Without the ability to contain outbreaks in small places and bus in workers from outside those cities for enforcement and control - because everywhere was outbreaking at the same time - China had to retreat from zero-covid or face ever growing revolt.
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Feb 1, 2023 10:50
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Just because it was very unlikely we could've ultimately escaped a pandemic situation, doesn't mean it's wrong to be angry at the many reckless ways governments including our own squandered the willingness to help of people who actually understood what the stakes were, leading to hundreds of thousands of unnecessary deaths.
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Feb 1, 2023 10:53
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No one is saying that A competent UK government could have acted more decisively, prevented the NHS being overrun, prevented mass death before the vaccines became available and also prevented the huge backlog in other treatments that is now leading to a huge jump in cancer and heart disease deaths. Mega Comrade fucked around with this message at 11:06 on Feb 1, 2023 |
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Feb 1, 2023 11:03
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Much as it's frustrating to admit, America's (lack of) leadership was probably the largest overall factor in this pandemic being as terrible as it was. In the history books Donald Trump will probably go down as a major factor in why covid was so deadly. From his lack of action to his outright denialism to his promotion of absolute frauds.
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Feb 1, 2023 11:07
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 HIGH DRAHCK SEE KLORO QUEEN
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Feb 1, 2023 11:12
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Tesseraction posted:Much as it's frustrating to admit, America's (lack of) leadership was probably the largest overall factor in this pandemic being as terrible as it was. In the history books Donald Trump will probably go down as a major factor in why covid was so deadly. I would put a lot on Bojo as well, turning the worlds travel hub into a superspreader site.
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Feb 1, 2023 11:22
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True, but I think Johnson somewhat took his cue from Trump, given how much the "special relationship" mostly just involves the UK licking boot.
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Feb 1, 2023 11:30
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Not sure if it is taking cues as much as they just think the same things. Ignoring problems is a founding principle of conservatism.
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Feb 1, 2023 11:31
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I suppose that if Hillary Clinton was president, she'd have taken a swifter and more aggressive approach that would give the UK government impetus to take this more seriously. But you're right, Boris would probably still have gone on his superspreader tours, just maybe with a mask on.
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Feb 1, 2023 11:33
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The UK response was basically ignoring it until someone presumably put a senior member of the government in a headlock and screamed at them that there would be societal collapse unless they curtailed the spread. And then did the same thing several times because as soon as the number went down they forgot why it was necessary in the first place.
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Feb 1, 2023 11:38
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Tesseraction posted:FWIW the rioting in China is after two years It wasn't easy for people to deal with before that either. China's government had a lot of initial buy-in with its population on zero covid, it takes time for that to erode, but it was a massive hardship for the people (entire cities, note, so let's not go with this 'hardly anyone was actually affected') getting locked down.
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Feb 1, 2023 11:40
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feedmegin posted:It wasn't easy for people to deal with before that either. China's government had a lot of initial buy-in with its population on zero covid, it takes time for that to erode, but it was a massive hardship for the people (entire cities, note, so let's not go with this 'hardly anyone was actually affected') getting locked down. Oh yeah the lockdowns in China were harsh as poo poo, although there was some interesting stuff to learn from what the Chinese government did - hiring taxi drivers to become deliverers of goods to people who were locked down in their homes, having designated people to check in on everyone to make sure they weren't sick / were keeping to lockdown / ordering groceries for aforementioned taxi drivers.
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Feb 1, 2023 12:24
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Tesseraction posted:I suppose that if Hillary Clinton was president, she'd have taken a swifter and more aggressive approach that would give the UK government impetus to take this more seriously. Well known carer about people over number, Hillary Clinton
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Feb 1, 2023 12:34
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Mega Comrade posted:TBF, a lot of 'non-western countries' were also perfectly happy to let it run rampant. A couple have been so severe it's actually noticable in the mutation rate statistics The major ones have been Brazil, thanks single handedly to Bolsanaro's weird and stupid approach, and South Africa where multiple generations of germ theory denialism (in fairness that was a western import) resulted in an institutional blasé attitude at a population level.
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Feb 1, 2023 12:36
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Tarnop posted:Well known carer about people over number, Hillary Clinton Yeah I'm not convinced she would have been especially bothered, though I also doubt a democratic president would have been quite as aggressively rejecting of reality as trump was, just doesn't really at all vibe with the whole conflict in US politics at the time.
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Feb 1, 2023 12:41
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OwlFancier posted:Yeah I'm not convinced she would have been especially bothered, though I also doubt a democratic president would have been quite as aggressively rejecting of reality as trump was, just doesn't really at all vibe with the whole conflict in US politics at the time. They just reject reality in a way that the sensibles agree with. It's no less wrong, there's just a lot less media interest in pointing out how wrong it is. We can look forward to the same thing here in a couple of years
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Feb 1, 2023 12:45
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Elements of it yes, but not, I think, specifically the plague that is affecting the entire planet.
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Feb 1, 2023 12:47
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https://twitter.com/FactionMan/status/1620381512754683905
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Feb 1, 2023 12:52
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Tarnop posted:Well known carer about people over number, Hillary Clinton As we know, letting the pandemic just roll across the population is just as bad for number, and would likely gently caress your reelection chances. In fact we have some striking evidence to that effect!!
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Feb 1, 2023 12:58
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Tarnop posted:Well known carer about people over number, Hillary Clinton Counting the number of people dying is a number too. In most cases, it’s not really a matter of choosing between the two; New Zealand was better at both. The issue was politicians in charge who wanted to demonstrate their commitment to one over the other. Which means failure to increase one can be mitigated by evidence of a decrease in the other. If it helps, you can imagine some hypothetical ultra-communist saying ‘ok, we failed to contain COVID, but we gave up 30% of GDP to do so’. Would you still blame them and ask more? Or would you say ‘this person shares my values; they are a Good Egg’. Or if that is too much of a stretch of the imagination, look at the entirely non -hypothetical case of the western turbo-capitalist politicians who told their masters ‘OK, GDP growth was down this year, but in my defence there was a 6 figure death toll’
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Feb 1, 2023 12:59
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radmonger posted:Counting the number of people dying is a number too. Yeah and what part of ‘number must go up’ would that violate Everything working as intended
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