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Chamale posted:Are there any violent video games where the protagonist doesn't murder hundreds of disposable people by the end of the game? It almost seems like an oxymoron, but hypothetically you could make a game that has combat but only as a last resort. I have never been alerted or killed a single person in any of my Metal Gear Solid saves. And there are 7 of them. Part of my issue with Last of Us because they don't program the game that way, and in 1, for instance, you are forced to kill at least 14 people (and more in cutscenes) to finish either game. They literally force you in like 20 situations per game with no matter how you sneak around or whatever, you have to kill a bunch of people unless you glitch it because the game just makes your character do what you havent been.
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Feb 1, 2023 03:26
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Chamale posted:Are there any violent video games where the protagonist doesn't murder hundreds of disposable people by the end of the game? It almost seems like an oxymoron, but hypothetically you could make a game that has combat but only as a last resort. Fallout and the Batman: Arkham ______ games can be played with it without killing IIRC.
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Feb 1, 2023 03:27
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Chamale posted:Are there any violent video games where the protagonist doesn't murder hundreds of disposable people by the end of the game? It almost seems like an oxymoron, but hypothetically you could make a game that has combat but only as a last resort. This is why Yoko Taro says his games have their famously bleak endings, because he doesn't believe a character who murders upwards of thousands of people over the course of a standard video game playthrough deserves a "happy" ending of any sort. nine-gear crow fucked around with this message at 07:51 on Feb 1, 2023 |
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Feb 1, 2023 03:29
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DeadFatDuckFat posted:Your only evidence of this is an inference based on the fact that they have a fence. At no point in the show are they depicted turning anyone away. FLIPADELPHIA posted:From the one episode, we don't know for sure what Bill's actual reaction to a friendly but desperate "refugee" or band of refugees would be. DeadFatDuckFat posted:This is not actually caring about others as if they were people. FEDRA murders them in the beginning of this episode. They are shown publicly executing them in the first. FLIPADELPHIA posted:I think it's reasonable to assume that if a bunch of needy, peaceful people ever showed up on his doorstep begging for entrance, he would have let them in or at least would offer some help. FLIPADELPHIA posted:The show doesn't present us with that scenario though- it purposefully makes the only other outsiders obviously violent murdering types that don't get any sympathy from the audience as they're burned alive and shot dead. FLIPADELPHIA posted:He's definitely not saying "gently caress off and die" to everyone else IMO.
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Feb 1, 2023 04:26
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Tiggum posted:So where are they then? They clearly have the space and resources for other people, and they definitely know how to contact other people, but they have never invited other people to join them. They could easily have done so but didn't. They know what life is like for people outside, but they're not doing anything to help anyone unless they get something in return and don't have to let anyone else in. 2/3rds of the times people are showing up at his town/compound thing after the apocalypse, Bill cooks them the best meal they've had in years with a god drat wine pairing. The other time the people showing up shot him. What was that about things being clearly demonstrated in the text?
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Feb 1, 2023 04:35
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Xiahou Dun posted:2/3rds of the times people are showing up at his town/compound thing after the apocalypse, Bill cooks them the best meal they've had in years with a god drat wine pairing. He didn't gradually open up to the possibility of other people being worth caring about. He didn't stop being a misanthropic isolationist. Frank, Joel and Tess are clearly rare exceptions. We can tell this from the fact that there are no others. He even says that Joel is the only one likely to be reading his note because no one else could get in, even after his death.
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Feb 1, 2023 04:42
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Tiggum posted:So where are all the people he's helping with his resources? Or are you saying there was simply nothing he could do? It would have been completely impossible to let anyone else in? Do we have to have a conversation about what the word "clear" means? We are shown three times when people show up and we have context clues about what happened in between. If you want to say that something definitely happened you need to point to it in the text. You don't have Bill turning a bunch of people away, stop making poo poo up to justify that read. Do you have actual evidence of this besides bald assertions? Because, again, we've got the 3 times : Frank is eventually invited in for lunch and then they live together and fall in love ; he learns to begrudgingly respect Joel ; he shoots the raiders (that are trying to murder him).
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Feb 1, 2023 04:53
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Xiahou Dun posted:We are shown three times when people show up and we have context clues about what happened in between. If you want to say that something definitely happened you need to point to it in the text. Xiahou Dun posted:You don't have Bill turning a bunch of people away, stop making poo poo up to justify that read. Xiahou Dun posted:Do you have actual evidence of this besides bald assertions?
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Feb 1, 2023 05:05
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I see Tiggum's point. If Bill truly cared about humanity, he could have asked Joel and Tess to send any refugees they know of to his town. But there's a difference between being a kind person and a selfless altruist, and although Bill never became the latter, Frank made him into a kind person.
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Feb 1, 2023 05:08
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Tiggum posted:No, this is what I'm saying. You are ignoring the evidence that's right in front of you. One, lay off with this strawman idea that I'm saying Bill is secretly doing a giant saintly pledge drive. I never said that because it's ridiculous. Just as ridiculous as your assertion. Now please either show where Bill turned anyone away* or shut the gently caress up. *Not the raiders, obviously.
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Feb 1, 2023 05:10
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Frank would’ve needled Bill into letting in anybody that came by.
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Feb 1, 2023 05:25
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i really enjoyed the episode except for the part where bill stood out in the road like a big dummy to get shot. buddy how do you not have a watchtower lined up that's like #2 on the prepper build list. maybe third behind the fire fence you said would take care of it anyway!
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Feb 1, 2023 05:37
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Tiggum posted:Whether you care about other people for good reasons or for bad reasons, you will end up in a bad situation. The only people who have any safety and security are the isolationists. This is where we disagree I guess. We are shown a relationship where one person learns to trust multiple people and ends up in a good situation. There is a lot of screen time devoted to this. I get that you're saying that the lack of other people in their little town completely invalidates this, but I think we're just gonna have to agree to disagree there. imo, the amount of evidence we see to support your theme that caring about others for good/ill leading to bad situations is greatly outweighed by all the things we see in the episode about how caring and trusting someone else can lead to something good. There really isn't anything much more to discuss tbh. I can see how someone could absolutely hate the third episode based on your interpretation of it though, since almost all the scenes with Bill and Frank would essentially be wasted screentime. DeadFatDuckFat fucked around with this message at 05:46 on Feb 1, 2023 |
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Feb 1, 2023 05:44
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If Bill helped every random person that came by indiscriminately he would eventually be taken advantage of and killed and then the theme would more plausibly be "don't help people or you will die". Instead, he helped a few people and found happiness while still maintaining his characteristic isolationist point of view which supports the real theme "you don't have to shut out everyone to survive and thrive".
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Feb 1, 2023 05:56
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Also wait. Are we just assuming that there’s no trade besides what Joel has in his knapsack. Because if that’s an assumption of this world then it’s the dumbest loving poo poo ever. It’s already been established that outside of urban areas it’s entirely safe from infection with reasonable care and the biggest dangers are other humans (and like falling off a mountain and poo poo). Like, history happened, we know how that went. They crossed the entire Gobi Desert for god drat silk. Go gently caress yourself if you think your raiders are more dangerous than the Mongos.
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Feb 1, 2023 06:00
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Chamale posted:Are there any violent video games where the protagonist doesn't murder hundreds of disposable people by the end of the game? It almost seems like an oxymoron, but hypothetically you could make a game that has combat but only as a last resort. In Hitman you can take out your targets entirely through "accidents"
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Feb 1, 2023 06:01
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Kwolok posted:Yeah I mean if it were a standard hetero couple and a woman fell in the whole and used sex/appeal as a means to stay initially/longer that grew into actual romance no one would bat an eye but for some reason if a gay man does it too people are upset and calling him a "whore"? I really don't get what is wrong with how Frank initially got into Bill's good graces. Gay men can enjoy sex. Gay men can use sex as a tool. Gay men can experience a whole spectrum of sex between tool-eyness and enjoying-ness I agree that some people would be happy enough to call the hypothetical women a whore in that scenario but think people would also say the guy was using power imbalances to coerce sex out of a woman the needed help. But I guess the moral of the story is that in the zombie apocalypse you just never know who is going end up in your holes.
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Feb 1, 2023 06:01
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I think it should be said about the word “whore” that it came from Frank’s mouth.
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Feb 1, 2023 06:06
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nine-gear crow posted:This is why Yoko Taro says have games have their famously bleak endings, because he doesn't believe a character who murders upwards of thousands of people over the course of a standard video game playthrough deserves a "happy" ending of any sort. Noah Hawley, who's been leading the Fargo TV show had an incredible interview at one point where he talked about violence in Coen Brother's films. In short - it needs to gruesome, ugly and awful, not glorified, and have consequence. A lot of shows have been doing that well lately, including the hyper-violent The Boys. This show seems smart enough to be taking a similar approach so far, but we'll see! From listening to the podcast, I don't think this show has any chance of being the next Game of Thrones if they manage to write past the games. Craig Mazin is giving this poo poo thought.
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Feb 1, 2023 06:14
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Mage_Boy posted:Something to remember about Hollywood: gas doesn't go bad in films/television. I'm embarrassed to admit that until I read Station Eleven I had no idea that gas goes bad after a few years.
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Feb 1, 2023 07:02
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That DICK! posted:i really enjoyed the episode except for the part where bill stood out in the road like a big dummy to get shot. buddy how do you not have a watchtower lined up that's like #2 on the prepper build list. maybe third behind the fire fence you said would take care of it anyway! That popped up in my brain too but I very quickly realized it was congruous, especially with Bill yelling at Frank to get back inside. Less bullets going towards the backstop of the house, where Frank is. Big violent target to shoot at the in middle of the road. I also considered the watchtower angle, and with something like a zipline for escape. At any rate, what happens if you get wounded up in a tower? You're not getting down without assistance, and if you get something like hit in the arm you will have major problems dealing with even a pre-prepared escape like a zip line.
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Feb 1, 2023 07:06
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Alhazred posted:I have some bad news for you about your posting That conducting public executions, while poo poo, is not ipso facto evidence that a government doesn't care about its people, unless they're executing them for something like "seditious thought" or whatever DeadFatDuckFat posted:Do you mean as a choice? You could play the Dishonored games by doing a fairly minimal amount of murder if you wanted to. You can get through the entirety of Dishonored without ever killing anyone, although all the non-lethal options for your targets are hilariously worse than death
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Feb 1, 2023 07:10
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No one in this thread have been defending the US government executing prisoners, so what the hell are you arguing?
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I mean if we're being strict in what we've only seen in the show life isn't too bad 5 hours out from Boston. One zombie, unless I missed the other zombie scene or the pile of zombies one group of raiders, who never came back seeking revenge one pair of smugglers I honestly don't see why he even needed the fence after 15 years if we're being this literal. Obviously the wonderful part is they don't show or tell any of us this so we can infer, or not, whatever we want. E: I also want to add this thread is such a nice breath of fresh air (no sarcasm here). In the show threads I'm usually in they typically devolve in to hate watching. While I didn't love this episode I can appreciate others might and seeing so many come to its defense is nice. Optimus_Rhyme fucked around with this message at 07:37 on Feb 1, 2023 |
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Feb 1, 2023 07:29
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Optimus_Rhyme posted:One zombie, unless I missed the other zombie scene or the pile of zombies He chuckles and says "never gets old" when his trap kills the zombie, and I think there's a scene where he mentions needing to regularly reset traps.
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Feb 1, 2023 07:35
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Chamale posted:He chuckles and says "never gets old" when his trap kills the zombie, and I think there's a scene where he mentions needing to regularly reset traps. Plus it's never explained how Bill got that infected-tester doodad he used immediately on Frank. A lot happened in all of those years the episode never touched on, leaving it to our imaginations to fill in all the gaps. 
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Feb 1, 2023 07:44
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Three television seasons of Bill and Frank dealing with raiders and infected and trading with Joel to fill in the gaps, please.
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Feb 1, 2023 07:48
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Just spectacular television
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Feb 1, 2023 08:09
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Tiggum posted:
lol fact Simultaneously saying that since something didn't happen on screen, it couldn't/wouldn't happen but also that same thing that didn't happen occurring a different way that wasn't shown is a concrete fact that can't be argued.
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Feb 1, 2023 08:12
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Feb 1, 2023 09:02
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Optimus_Rhyme posted:one group of raiders Why do cars need crumple zones? They only save people from one crash at most.
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Feb 1, 2023 09:55
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DeadFatDuckFat posted:This is where we disagree I guess. We are shown a relationship where one person learns to trust multiple people and ends up in a good situation. There is a lot of screen time devoted to this. I get that you're saying that the lack of other people in their little town completely invalidates this, but I think we're just gonna have to agree to disagree there. imo, the amount of evidence we see to support your theme that caring about others for good/ill leading to bad situations is greatly outweighed by all the things we see in the episode about how caring and trusting someone else can lead to something good. There really isn't anything much more to discuss tbh. I can see how someone could absolutely hate the third episode based on your interpretation of it though, since almost all the scenes with Bill and Frank would essentially be wasted screentime. I'm not sure if I'm agreeing or disagreeing with you, but let me throw this out there: the only reason anything bad happened to Bill was because he didn't care about enough people. From the text, we get from Bill the line, "But there's no one at my side", "There is no girl", that he "used to hate the world" before Frank, and there "was one person worth saving". So we know that initially, he was alone, and unhappy. His idyllic life, with music and strawberries and tears, didn't start until he let Frank in. Theoretically, that's great, but it also meant that once Frank was gone, he had nothing else to live for. By his own admission, he didn't really care for Joel or Tess. Frank was his purpose in life. Maybe if he had a rich family, brothers and sisters and nieces and nephews and children (found family included), then when Frank died, he would have still had a reason to stay alive. Maybe he met or helped other survivors off-screen, maybe not, I mean he got that medical tester from somewhere, but even if he helped them, he didn't let any of those people in emotionally. Not enough to save him, anyway. That's why to me, it's both a beautiful thing that Bill devoted himself fully to Frank, but also a tragedy. It can be both. Also, in regards to the comment that the only way to be completely safe is to completely cut yourself off from anyone else... well, yes, that's true. But that's not necessarily an endorsement of isolationism. Bill was safe in his bunker before Frank, when he came up so rarely that there was a visible level of dust on every surface. But he wasn't happy. His life had no meaning. Vulnerability makes you vulnerable by definition, but it's also necessary for human connection, which is necessary for love. But the route he took of devoting himself complete to one other person didn't quite work out, either. It led him to take reckless actions to protect Frank from the raiders. Consider that before Frank, the last time thugs came into town, he just hid out in his bunker 'til they left. He could have done that again, if he was alone. He wasn't protecting himself, or his town, he was protecting Frank. He says as much in the letter. And that mentality eventually led to his death. A romantic death, but a death none the less. I imagine this is leading to the idea that it's important to value not only people that you personally like, but people in general. They're showing us a variety of people and situations to build up to this. I haven't played any of the games so I have no idea, but in the show, this tracks to me because of Joel and Ellie. If Joel is to become the "hero" and fully accept this quest he's been given, he needs to let Ellie in and devote himself to caring for her, but not only that. He needs to decide that he cares about the world in general, about saving everyone, because that's what the broader goal of the quest is. But for him, it's not just for the sake of saving the world, that's almost secondary; the real stakes are whether Joel can more generally recover emotionally from the death of his daughter and the trauma of the pandemic, and what he'd need to do to do that. Which, of course, is a more relevant tale to tell than whether a man can save a world from fungus zombies and fight off raiders and poo poo. He needs to learn to care about, and thus be vulnerable to, many people. In this way, Bill is essentially a stand-in for Joel and the point he's just starting to reach in his development right now, thereby indicating the direction he's headed, that of learning more and more to open up. Could be wrong but it would be cool to see.
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Feb 1, 2023 09:58
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flashy_mcflash posted:Fallout and the Batman: Arkham ______ games can be played with it without killing IIRC. *insert Detective Mode Pic Of A Jeremy Renner’d Crook Body here* “Still breathing.”
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Feb 1, 2023 10:47
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Chamale posted:Are there any violent video games where the protagonist doesn't murder hundreds of disposable people by the end of the game? It almost seems like an oxymoron, but hypothetically you could make a game that has combat but only as a last resort. Tomb Raider Anniversary (a remake of Tomb Raider 1) features Lara Croft killing a bunch of animals and guts monsters but only like two or three human beings. This is treated as a big deal for her, which is made all the funnier by having the reboot trilogy be all about how she's actually just a psychopathic mass murderer.
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Feb 1, 2023 11:04
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Chamale posted:Are there any violent video games where the protagonist doesn't murder hundreds of disposable people by the end of the game? It almost seems like an oxymoron, but hypothetically you could make a game that has combat but only as a last resort. Most immersive sim games like Dishonored you can. It's always harder but possible. Old CRPGS like Fallout too where it's possible to talk yourself out of every situation. And technically Kiryu hasn't killed anyone. Just taught them a lesson with his fists and a pile driver into concrete and a bicycle to the groan.
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Feb 1, 2023 11:37
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freebooter posted:That conducting public executions, while poo poo, is not ipso facto evidence that a government doesn't care about its people Yes, it is. A society that cares about it's people, even the ones that break the law, does not execute them.
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Feb 1, 2023 11:44
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The Deus Ex games generally give you a way of stealthing through every situation, or non-lethally taking people down (though the effect is the same as killing them anyway). Janitor: "Why are all the air vents stuffed with unconscious bodies?"
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Feb 1, 2023 12:34
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Cyberpunk 2077 has non-lethal takedowns and mods and also ends up similar with lots of unconscious bodies stuffed in trunks and trash containers. The Thief series also had no-kill options to knockout guards and other taffers. There's a fun category in speedrunning for pacifist runs, including rather difficult games like Cuphead, Battletoads or Ninja Gaiden (except for the bosses or if it's absolutely necessary to progress). So these games weren't necessarily made with that in mind, but it's surprising a way can be found to not kill https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_JeooffKp0&t=345s
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Feb 1, 2023 13:54
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Feb 1, 2023 13:58
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AzureSkys posted:Cyberpunk 2077 has non-lethal takedowns and mods and also ends up similar with lots of unconscious bodies stuffed in trunks and trash containers. The Thief series also had no-kill options to knockout guards and other taffers. At launch the Cyberpunk non lethal mod was hilariously buggy. Sometimes it'll knock someone out. Sometime you'll take their head clean. Also how could I forget Death Stranding. It has plenty of lethal weapons but if you kill a person it has the most appropriate and arduous punishment for killing I've ever seen in a video game. You literally have to drag their body up a mountain and cremate them within a certain time limit or a part of the map is permanently deleted.
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Feb 1, 2023 14:24
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XboxPants posted:
This post was cool and good. I really like this interpretation, it just fits. And it makes Offerman's performance even more moving. I especially like your point about the dusty furniture upstsirs. Bill lived in a bunker before Frank, and a house after. A simple but powerful metaphor for the man's way of abiding in the world. FLIPADELPHIA fucked around with this message at 14:53 on Feb 1, 2023 |
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Feb 1, 2023 14:49
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