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Dull Fork posted:Ah yes, nothing like a draft to calm german's fears of an authoritarian Germany rising again. But sending tanks was 'too unpopular' for scholz. Wild. Conscription was suspended in Germany something like a decade ago, but not officially abolished. It can be resumed in case of a war. The new defense minister recently stepped on some rakes by saying that the suspension was a mistake in his opinion. That's all there is to it. Everybody is basically going "are you high?" in response to his comment. It's a somewhat common opinion among staunch conservative cause kids learn ~duty and discipline~ or something while serving, but it's a minority opinion
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Jan 31, 2023 20:54
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Dull Fork posted:Ah yes, nothing like a draft to calm german's fears of an authoritarian Germany rising again. But sending tanks was 'too unpopular' for scholz. Wild. The draft was a staple of Germany, based on the theory that you can only have a real Democracy if you make sure the people will constantly be shuffled through the armed forces via the draft. This is to prevent authoritarian structures to build up, completely separated from the larger population. Over time, the draft then was shortened until it became basically uselessly short, then put in dormancy. Now there's talk about reviving national conscription, since history was mean and didn't end after all
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Jan 31, 2023 20:55
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Antigravitas posted:I honestly don't even know where to begin. Your premise is wildly off base, and connecting the Wehrpflicht to tanks just doesn't follow at all. I’m not that poster but I think the issue might have been word choice here. “Draft” is a loaded term in the US where it invokes images of people being chosen at random to be sent off to war. I don’t know what a less loaded word would be. Most of the German men I know who had to do conscription all chose (and were allowed to! I know you know this but maybe others don’t) to do other non-military forms of service instead of learning how to be a boot.
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Jan 31, 2023 20:58
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DTurtle posted:We had the draft up to about 10 years ago. Getting rid of it has been seen as one of the last worst things being done to the Bundeswehr with regards to having it be an effective force. A lot of recruitment for the Bundeswehr was done through people staying after their draft service. In addition, having a draft was actually seen as the opposite of being authoritarian, as it actually embedded the Bundeswehr more into normal society. Thanks for explaining. Its interesting to me that the draft is looked upon in that way. American context for the draft is heavily mixed in with anti-war sentiment due to its contentious nature around the Vietnam war. I'll admit I'm having trouble seeing compulsory military service as anything but authoritarian, but I can see the argument for it 'moderating' potential extremists that coalesce around state backed violence. National service, beyond just military is a great idea in my opinion though!
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Jan 31, 2023 21:15
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Isn't mandatory military service still quite common? I thought places like Singapore, South Korea, Sweden, Switzerland, etc, all still do it? Never heard it called a draft before though.
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Jan 31, 2023 21:17
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Antigravitas posted:I honestly don't even know where to begin. Your premise is wildly off base, and connecting the Wehrpflicht to tanks just doesn't follow at all. Thanks for the link, let me try to explain my line of thinking a little more clearly. Earlier in the thread posters were discussing Sholz's unwillingness to send tanks, and suggesting that due to his base's/Germany's own split on the issue, thusly Sholz was as well, even if it was the 'right' thing to do, it was politically unpopular. To an American, a draft is an extremely unpopular thing, due to the last time it was used, it was to send unwilling teenagers to die in Vietnam for a war they didn't support. So I saw an incongruency in action. Why is the German govt mumbling about bringing back the draft (in my mind a super unpopular decision) when sending tanks was too unpopular for Sholz constituents? Edit: This is not to reiterate the question, which I felt was answered by posters describing the differences in Germany's draft, and what the US did, just to clear up where I was coming from. Dull Fork fucked around with this message at 21:45 on Jan 31, 2023 |
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Jan 31, 2023 21:25
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WarpedLichen posted:Isn't mandatory military service still quite common? I thought places like Singapore, South Korea, Sweden, Switzerland, etc, all still do it? Conscription was very common in Europe up until the late 90's. Something happened in the early 90's to make the need to have large numbers of the population available for military service at short notice less of an imperative, it should not be surprising that as the defence policy trends of the 90's get re-evaluated that Conscription is one of the topics that gets raised. e: the other thing to bear in mind is that nobody in German politics has had to think seriously about defence policy in 30 years, so they're about to speedrun a public debate of all the classic bad ideas before they settle on a sensible national consensus. This is just a misfire.
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Jan 31, 2023 21:27
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A friend of mine from Germany if I remember correctly post high school he avoided mandatory military service by doing some kind of state sponsored public service work in of all places Russia. I forget exactly what he did there maybe teaching languages but I believe you had two choices at the time either a year of military service or working in public service elsewhere, this would have been late '00s.
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Jan 31, 2023 21:30
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Dull Fork posted:Thanks for the link, let me try to explain my line of thinking a little more clearly. Germans are not Americans and Germany is not America. I hope this helps (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 31, 2023 21:34
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Popete posted:A friend of mine from Germany if I remember correctly post high school he avoided mandatory military service by doing some kind of state sponsored public service work in of all places Russia. I forget exactly what he did there maybe teaching languages but I believe you had two choices at the time either a year of military service or working in public service elsewhere, this would have been late '00s. That was the Zivildienst, yes. I barely avoided ending up there because I declined military service, but then was too lazy to write the short essay explaining why I didn't think military service was good for me. 
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Jan 31, 2023 21:35
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Libluini posted:That was the Zivildienst, yes. I barely avoided ending up there because I declined military service, but then was too lazy to write the short essay explaining why I didn't think military service was good for me. Ah thanks. Looking into it he must have qualified as a Entwicklungshelfer working as a foreign aid helper, kinda like Peace Corps.
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Jan 31, 2023 21:41
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Dull Fork posted:Thanks for the link, let me try to explain my line of thinking a little more clearly. Alright, I've written about him, let me quote it, because I intend to not stray far from the last sentence: Antigravitas posted:Tbh what irritates me the most about Scholz is his absolute unwillingness to explain his rationale on anything. He's an arrogant jackass who develops sudden memory loss when questioned about things. He is that way on every issue. His persistent unwillingness to lay down the rationale driving decisions displays a warped understanding of what elected officials are supposed to do and who they represent. There are politicians in his own coalition who understand this, like Habeck who will go in front of angry oil refinery workers to explain to them why their job may be in danger. The primary problem we have is that we simply do not know the reasoning. When he addressed parliament, he said to "just trust me, bro". If you forced him to answer, he won't remember. Public opinion is pretty fickle, and the tank "debate" has been so incredibly stupid I don't doubt it heavily weighted on polls. People voted for a male Merkel though, who was a weather vane on every issue. But since nobody's talking, who the gently caress knows what drives decisions. There is one line that has been leading German policy, which is that it will not act without a broad consensus, i.e. without others also having skin in the game as well. The Wehrpflicht has much more to do with the simple problem that the Bundeswehr is severely suffering from a lack of soldiers which is putting several goals at risk, including NATO commitments. However, the problems with it haven't been solved, so the answer to Pistorius is "lol no".
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Jan 31, 2023 21:43
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Dull Fork posted:Ah yes, nothing like a draft to calm german's fears of an authoritarian Germany rising again. But sending tanks was 'too unpopular' for scholz. Wild. Regular drafts aren't uncommon or quite so controversial outside the United States. 100% volunteer armies are more the exception than the rule.
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Jan 31, 2023 22:12
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Vox Nihili posted:Regular drafts aren't uncommon or quite so controversial outside the United States. 100% volunteer armies are more the exception than the rule. People always forget how much bigger the US population is compared to European countries.
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Jan 31, 2023 22:23
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Vox Nihili posted:Regular drafts aren't uncommon or quite so controversial outside the United States. 100% volunteer armies are more the exception than the rule. This isn't true at all 
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Jan 31, 2023 23:10
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Compulsory Service is a better term than Draft. At least for us dipshits in the US. Draft is ‘oh hey you’re of age come fight and die’ VS hey you have to do you two years before you go to college or whatever.
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Jan 31, 2023 23:11
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It reminds me how several weeks ago there was a rumor that Poland is going to bring back compulsory military service and reactions were about as positive as you might expect.
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Jan 31, 2023 23:20
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https://twitter.com/DefMon3/status/1620546991968100354 if trueE: https://twitter.com/DefMon3/status/1620550484263325698
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Jan 31, 2023 23:35
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:This isn't true at all OP is technically/objectively incorrect but it was mentioned previously (and it's a fair point too) that it used to be very common in Europe until countries largely gave up on non-grift related military expenditure after the USSR collapsed, which included ending mandatory military service. Since we're talking about Germany potentially reintroducing it, here's the status/history of conscription from wikipedia for the European Union member states, so you can compare.. to me it shows that this was pretty normal until relatively recently. Definitely within living memory for significant chunks of the population, but probably not for the kids who would be called into it  e: forgot to timg it boofhead fucked around with this message at 23:52 on Jan 31, 2023 |
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Jan 31, 2023 23:44
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:This isn't true at all I think costa rica and panama are reversed here
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Jan 31, 2023 23:45
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Flavahbeast posted:I think costa rica and panama are reversed here
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Jan 31, 2023 23:58
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fatherboxx has graciously agreed to IK this thread. Feel free to offer them your condolences. We may (hopefully) yet find a second IK.
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Feb 1, 2023 00:08
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Feb 1, 2023 00:10
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Fritz the Horse posted:fatherboxx has graciously agreed to IK this thread. Feel free to offer them your condolences. We may (hopefully) yet find a second IK. 
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Feb 1, 2023 00:26
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Fritz the Horse posted:fatherboxx has graciously agreed to IK this thread. Feel free to offer them your condolences. We may (hopefully) yet find a second IK. Long may he defend the thread, should the Tankies return (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Feb 1, 2023 01:13
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Fritz the Horse posted:fatherboxx has graciously agreed to IK this thread. Feel free to offer them your condolences. We may (hopefully) yet find a second IK. 
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Feb 1, 2023 01:33
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f, but also thanks
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Feb 1, 2023 01:36
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Mild  warning - dude shows off his mostly healed war scars and for some vivid descriptions of frontline combatThis is an interview with one of the guys in the CivDiv video who was wounded by artillery shortly after the video ended. He talks about what fighting is like, what it was like being wounded and funneled through the CCP to the field hospital to a city hospital to recuperate. The casualty recovery in Ukraine seems to be pretty good, but still not pleasant. He also discusses how the Russians behaved in combat against him, what surrenders looked like and how BMPs have a shitload more armor than you'd think. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUjqUQgnq3o
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Feb 1, 2023 01:47
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Fritz the Horse posted:fatherboxx has graciously agreed to IK this thread. Feel free to offer them your condolences. We may (hopefully) yet find a second IK. Tossing back a vodka in respect of our poor IK. "Будем здоровы!" Vincent Van Goatse fucked around with this message at 04:49 on Feb 1, 2023 |
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Feb 1, 2023 04:44
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cinci zoo sniper posted:https://www.ustranscom.mil/cmd/panewsreader.cfm?ID=257C0F16-BEFD-D743-9EBE363136787004&yr=2023. Looks like Bradleys have finally shipped. That’s the ARC Integrity. I’ve boarded that vessel in the past for work.
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Feb 1, 2023 07:06
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Dull Fork posted:Thanks for explaining. Its interesting to me that the draft is looked upon in that way. American context for the draft is heavily mixed in with anti-war sentiment due to its contentious nature around the Vietnam war. I'll admit I'm having trouble seeing compulsory military service as anything but authoritarian, but I can see the argument for it 'moderating' potential extremists that coalesce around state backed violence. National service, beyond just military is a great idea in my opinion though! If you want some reading related to the subject, I found this essay from the historian Bret Devereaux interesting. Here's a relevant portion (emphasis in original): quote:Encouraging soldiers to see themselves as ‘warriors’ means encouraging them to see their role as combatants as the foundational core of their identity. A Mongol warrior was a warrior because as an adult male Mongol, being a warrior was central to his gender-identity and place in society (the Mongols being a society, as common with Steppe nomads, where all adult males were warriors); such a Mongol remained a warrior for his whole adult life. Likewise, a medieval knight – who I’d class as a warrior (remember, the distinction is on identity more than unit fighting) – had warrior as a core part of their identity. It is striking that, apart from taking religious orders to become a monk (and thus shift to an equally totalizing vocation), knights – especially as we progress through the High Middle Ages as the knighthood becomes a more rigid and recognized institution – do not generally seem to retire. They do not lay down their arms and become civilians (and just one look at the attitude of knightly writers towards civilians quickly answers the question as to why). Being a warrior was the foundation of their identity and so could not be disposed of. We could do the same exercise with any number of ‘warrior classes’ within various societies. Those individuals were, in effect born warriors and they would die warriors. In societies with meaningful degrees of labor specialization, to be a warrior was to be, permanently, a class apart.
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Feb 1, 2023 07:18
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https://twitter.com/Tatarigami_UA/status/1620616498095226881 It will be interesting to see how this shakes out. Apparently some better units like VDV have been around Kreminna recently. There were some reports Ukraine had been pushed back in the area and recently it appears they're not only not past Dibrova but it's still apparently Russian controlled and I'd wondered if that had been successful Russian counters.
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Feb 1, 2023 07:36
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cinci zoo sniper posted:Small housekeeping update for the thread – I have resigned from being a D&D moderator. As someone who ate two probes in this thread...thank you for all the work you've done.
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Feb 1, 2023 07:40
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Fritz the Horse posted:fatherboxx has graciously agreed to IK this thread. Feel free to offer them your condolences. We may (hopefully) yet find a second IK. What does IK stand for? Also in keeping with discussion of current events, what are the most likely targets for Ukraine if they get the longer ranged missiles? It looks like they can strike at what remains of the Black Sea fleet but I'm not sure worthwhile targets they would be since they've been sitting in port for awhile (AFAIK).
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Feb 1, 2023 08:43
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Idiot King, I believe.
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Feb 1, 2023 08:46
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Yes. Thread-specific mini-mods, usually.
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Feb 1, 2023 08:53
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Does fatherboxx know he's an IK? It'd be bleakly thread-appropriate if he woke up and found himself with mod buttons.
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Feb 1, 2023 08:54
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Picked off the streets to be mobilized as an IK, that's appropriate.
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Feb 1, 2023 09:00
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TK-42-1 posted:Compulsory Service is a better term than Draft. At least for us dipshits in the US. Draft is ‘oh hey you’re of age come fight and die’ VS hey you have to do you two years before you go to college or whatever. I don't think it's even two years in most cases. In Denmark for example it's usually between 4 and 12 months. I get the impression that these days, for the smaller european nations at least, conscription is more about keeping the Basic Training pipeline continually active rather than getting actual labor out of the conscripts. Slashrat fucked around with this message at 09:12 on Feb 1, 2023 |
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Feb 1, 2023 09:04
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lol fatherboxx issuing probes and bans that he'll rescind, if you buy avs and start accounts that he can sell on the side
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