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YaketySass posted:You could probably get a decent villain concept out of someone who uses their Social Links for evil instead of always making the bad guy a freak who's too stupid/sociopathic for human connections. Yes I was the Villain of P5R.
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Feb 3, 2023 22:25
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I said for evil, but touché I guess.
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Feb 3, 2023 22:31
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The villain of P6 is a MC but evil, and the schtick is both you and them are competing to raise s-links with the same people and first to 10 gets their help in the final battle.
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Feb 3, 2023 22:36
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I get the feeling P4 does not intend for you to clear dungeons the day they open up. Well that's gonna be a problem down the road, but at least I managed to barely squeak through the first one. also please don't actually confirm/deny this but I feel like I've learned how to spot a persona villain and I've met this Adachi guy twice and he's it. I'm glad I played P5R first because the villains actually managed to surprise me.
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Feb 3, 2023 22:53
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I do think in both P4 and P5 it makes more thematic sense if it takes a little while to clear the dungeons.
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Feb 3, 2023 23:01
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In my first run I only started finishing dungeons in one day by the fourth one. In my last run I'm pretty sure I took two days for the second dungeon but starting with the third one I managed to do them all in one day. This is the ideal strategy because I think certain characters like party members will be unavailable as long as you need to go into the TV World. So this will help you max out your S Links faster.
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Feb 3, 2023 23:03
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the sex ghost posted:As bad as the summer festival is you'd better believe I picked every dialogue option along the lines of 'were doing the drag show, youre just scared of how sickening my looks are going to be' Seeing Teddie just gleefully owning the 'Miss' Yasogami Pageant really upped my opinion of him. Too bad he had to immediately gently caress it all up with his judging of the other pageant. Really though the student body should've given more props to Yu's sukeban look, that was tight. Yukiko really did our boy a solid. edit: Also I'm halfway through November and I literally just met the Tower social link. At least when P5's Hanged Man was taunting you with that courage 4 requirement you could actually meet him. Shyrka fucked around with this message at 23:14 on Feb 3, 2023 |
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Feb 3, 2023 23:08
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SettingSun posted:I do think in both P4 and P5 it makes more thematic sense if it takes a little while to clear the dungeons. I feel like the deadlines in P5 gave you enough reason to take your time, with the one very notable exception, but I'm having a harder time buying we can leave that kidnapping victim in the nightmare dimension of horrible death for a couple weeks, they'll probably be fine until it rains as a rationale.
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Feb 3, 2023 23:27
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:I get the feeling P4 does not intend for you to clear dungeons the day they open up. Well that's gonna be a problem down the road, but at least I managed to barely squeak through the first one. Definitely not for the first dungeon. I think I spent two days on that dungeon, and the boss definitely was an endurance race that started to fall apart near the end. Definitely too much HP. I have been able to clear the remaining ones on the day I enter them via brute force, but this includes at least one day entering the metaverse outside of the dungeon periods to level up, grab items, upgrade personas, and get money. This is actually backwards from how the game expects you to do it, based on how you unlock new armor, but I'm stubborn and want to do them in one day. if you DO try to finish them in one day, I suspect you'll find many of the bosses damage spongey. They really aren't consistent in difficulty, though. For your spoiler: you and me both.
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Feb 4, 2023 00:00
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:I feel like the deadlines in P5 gave you enough reason to take your time, with the one very notable exception, but I'm having a harder time buying we can leave that kidnapping victim in the nightmare dimension of horrible death for a couple weeks, they'll probably be fine until it rains as a rationale. The rationale is that if you get careless and don't pace yourself, you risk getting killed by the shadows and then both you and the victims are dead. Which is a sensible argument if you don't look at it as a videogame where you know you can do it in one night (and that's the optimal way to play) but rather as a real, tangible life and death situation. Yosuke brings this point up in the first dungeon when Chie wants to save Yukiko as soon as possible. There's merit to taking your time and slowly progressing through the stages... or there would be if it wasn't so sub-optimal gameplay-wise  As for the "probably fine", Teddie says it's safe. Should you trust Teddie? Well, that's a different matter.
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Feb 4, 2023 00:13
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Why did it take me until the end of November to discover that catching bugs doesn't cause time to pass? Well now I can catch up on my fishing. edit: Uh, I think I got a bad ending. And after all the time I spent worrying about maxing out the Aeon social link! I guess I have to go back and do something counter-intuitive? Shyrka fucked around with this message at 01:47 on Feb 4, 2023 |
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Feb 4, 2023 01:05
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Shyrka posted:Why did it take me until the end of November to discover that catching bugs doesn't cause time to pass? Uh oh, this doesn't bode well for me!
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Feb 4, 2023 01:56
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Shyrka posted:Why did it take me until the end of November to discover that catching bugs doesn't cause time to pass? I think all you have to do is answer a series of dialogue prompts correctly to continue the game past that point. iirc there is a social link you will want to max after that though
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Feb 4, 2023 01:58
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man nurse posted:I think all you have to do is answer a series of dialogue prompts correctly to continue the game past that point. iirc there is a social link you will want to max after that though Yeah, seems like. December spoilers: Obviously throwing the guy in the TV is a bad idea so I talked Yosuke out of that (also some really good lines from Chie and Yukiko in that scene, really heart-tugging stuff) but I made the mistake of being confused as to why Namatame was acting so scared instead of just being confused in general, I guess. At least I know throwing him in the TV was a bad call, that's what I thought was the counter-intuitive thing I'd have to go back and do.
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Feb 4, 2023 02:02
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Yeah, no, there is a very specific set of dialogue choices that you have to pick there. Anything else leads to a bad ending.
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Feb 4, 2023 02:16
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YaketySass posted:I said for evil, but touché I guess. killing wakaba all over again is evil@
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Feb 4, 2023 02:20
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Hellioning posted:Yeah, no, there is a very specific set of dialogue choices that you have to pick there. Anything else leads to a bad ending. Yeah, even on my second run I couldn't quite remember the exact dialogue to pick and got the bad ending again. That is the one thing I knew about P4 going into it - that there was a legendarily bullshit moment like that. Didn't know the context, just that it was dumb and you could very easily get the bad ending. Also very easy to miss the True Ending.
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Feb 4, 2023 02:38
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HootTheOwl posted:killing wakaba all over again is evil@ Enabling a well meaning but idiotic man's god complex is also evil.
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Feb 4, 2023 03:16
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HootTheOwl posted:killing wakaba all over again is evil@ There's a lot of kind of unexamined moral ambiguity if you assume that the cognitive people are actually alive in a meaningful sense (which isn't really clear - it seems to be the case for Akechi or Wakaba, while, for example, Haru's fake-dad seems more like a puppet designed to make her happy). The game just treats it as a conflict between giving the Phantom Thieves these things that give them a sort of "false happiness" or not doing so, but the stakes are a bit higher if you're one of the cognitive people.
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Feb 4, 2023 03:19
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Maruki's power relies on being able to read the hearts of others, be it from his therapy sessions with the thieves or his surveillance of Mementos. He is explicitly not a god like Yaldy - so it stands to reason his actualization power can really only "create" people from an amalgamation of how they're remembered in living people's hearts. So Wakabe is how Futaba and Sojiro remember her and Haru's dad likewise is clearly how Haru *wanted* to remember him, or perhaps how she describes him as being prior to becoming obsessed with money and status. We know Maruki is not adverse to mucking around a bit with people's perceptions to achieve a happy ending so it makes sense where he did bring people back to life, he brought back an idealized version of what those who mourned for them wanted. It's never explored if they could potentially grow and change and branch out from those remembrances they were created from, but given Maruki's world is implied to bring happiness through stasis I kinda doubt it.
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Feb 4, 2023 03:39
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Sydin posted:Maruki's power relies on being able to read the hearts of others, be it from his therapy sessions with the thieves or his surveillance of Mementos. He is explicitly not a god like Yaldy - so it stands to reason his actualization power can really only "create" people from an amalgamation of how they're remembered in living people's hearts. So Wakabe is how Futaba and Sojiro remember her and Haru's dad likewise is clearly how Haru *wanted* to remember him, or perhaps how she describes him as being prior to becoming obsessed with money and status. We know Maruki is not adverse to mucking around a bit with people's perceptions to achieve a happy ending so it makes sense where he did bring people back to life, he brought back an idealized version of what those who mourned for them wanted. It's never explored if they could potentially grow and change and branch out from those remembrances they were created from, but given Maruki's world is implied to bring happiness through stasis I kinda doubt it. P5R 3rd semester spoilers. Akechi's clearly pretty well realised as his own person who doesn't want to live as Maruki's 'puppet' but his own desire to do so kind of cuts the strings away anyway. Except in the bad endings he does have kind of a Stepford vibe so I dunno if that's something where his will of rebellion failed him? Like having a Persona is exactly why he's able to still be his own person and defy Maruki through January, or it's because Joker imagines Akechi as that kind of guy but if Joker gives up and embraces Maruki's reality then his actualization of Akechi shifts to match?
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Feb 4, 2023 03:46
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Also doesn't Wakaba disappear when the Phantom Thieves reject Maruki initially? Seems pretty clear that she's not a real person. There's also some interesting side conversations with random NPCs that frame the issue that way. Like, Adorable Woman in the Shibuya Underground Walkway at night spends the entire main game complaining that her boyfriend from the countryside is overprotective and keeps trying to get her to move back home (until he eventually returns at the end of the year) and in the third semester he's totally accepting iirc and it freaks her out.
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Feb 4, 2023 03:47
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Shyrka posted:P5R 3rd semester spoilers. Akechi's clearly pretty well realised as his own person who doesn't want to live as Maruki's 'puppet' but his own desire to do so kind of cuts the strings away anyway. Except in the bad endings he does have kind of a Stepford vibe so I dunno if that's something where his will of rebellion failed him? Like having a Persona is exactly why he's able to still be his own person and defy Maruki through January, or it's because Joker imagines Akechi as that kind of guy but if Joker gives up and embraces Maruki's reality then his actualization of Akechi shifts to match? Obviously at this point I'm just spitballing since none of this is explicitly confirmed in the game itself, but Maruki is also kind of a naive idealist so it's possible he created Akechi as Joker saw him with the belief he or Joker could convince Akechi on a fresh start. When that obviously falls apart as soon as the first palace infiltration Maruki then puts all the onus on Joker for accepting the new reality or not. That if you do take Maruki's deal in the bad end Akechi just kind of accepts it speaks to me that he's an actualized version created by Maruki, and once Joker accepts his reality Maruki says gently caress it and tweaks Akechi to accept it as well. The "real" Akechi, or even an unaltered but otherwise accurate cognition of Akechi, would never accept Maruki's world no matter what and would outright suicide charge Maruki solo before settling down into his placid dream life.
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Feb 4, 2023 03:54
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It's a good thing (this is P5R spoilers by the way) that your biggest links to Maruki, other than the Phantom Thieves, are Akechi and Sumire. Akechi describes the revived people as something more than Cognitions; they seem to be, for all intents and purposes, actual alternate universe versions of the people who died, with Okumura having had his change of heart. It could be argued that Akechi just doesn't know any better, but I don't think Maruki's Cognitive Akechi would be quite so hostile to Maruki himself. Akechi makes it quite clear where he stands on Maruki; not just in the scenes where he implores Joker to not even consider the rewrite, but also in his reaction when Maruki uses his brainwash tentacles on Sumire. He is genuinely upset on behalf of another person as he watches their agency get literally stripped away. Sumire is the chief example of the kind of person Maruki wants to save, and yet he does nothing but cause her harm. Her "life" as Kasumi is a total trainwreck and it is absolutely gut-wrenching to look back at her early confidant ranks where she says "my coach is always complimenting me, saying Kasumi's strength is her boldness" and talking about her body feeling wrong. Maruki only ever met her at her very lowest, and decided that what a freshly traumatized teenager expressing suicidal ideation needed was the sweet release of ego death. Which it turns out is absolutely not what Sumire wanted or needed, something she unwittingly tells you when she is the only person in Tokyo who admires yet disagrees with the Phantom Thieves, and then goes on to demonstrate when she's finally allowed to spend five minutes as Sumire, an individual not solely defined by her sister's death. It actually pissed me off when he asks how Sumire's doing on the final evening, Joker says she's stronger than he thinks, and he just goes "I wish I could believe that," and I never get angry at video games. Maruki is a terrible therapist who refuses to process his own trauma, and he projects all his poo poo onto a bunch of deeply traumatized teens who are having absolutely none of it. It kind of rules. There could have been a big nuanced question of whether Maruki really was providing a greater good and if you have any right to deny Wakaba or even chalk-throwing-teacher a new lease on life, but I think Sumire and Akechi provide the answer: Whatever good Maruki's power could have done would always be limited by the part where it's Maruki doing it, and the guy's idea of happy and healthy is just categorically wrong, which their storylines serve to demonstrate. They even managed to thread the needle of doing that while keeping him as a sympathetic and compelling character, which is no mean feat. E: Yeah, also the ol' gossip stroll through Tokyo also reveals a far amount of people having very mixed feelings about having their unexamined wishes come true. Zulily Zoetrope fucked around with this message at 04:20 on Feb 4, 2023 |
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Feb 4, 2023 04:15
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Look, anyone who's True Self takes the form of fuckin' Azathoth isn't playing with a full deck to begin with.
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Feb 4, 2023 04:23
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also yes
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Feb 4, 2023 04:26
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But Adam Kadmon is arguably the coolest looking final boss design in the series, so who can say if he's wrong or not
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Feb 4, 2023 04:41
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:It actually pissed me off when he asks how Sumire's doing on the final evening, Joker says she's stronger than he thinks, and he just goes "I wish I could believe that," and I never get angry at video games. Yeah this really hits the nail on the head: everything Maruki does doesn't just stem from his inability to face his own trauma, but as a way for him to justify his decision to mindwipe Rumi as correct. And of course for that decision to be correct, it must mean that Rumi could have never moved past her trauma on her own or with normal help, which must mean nobody else can either. Everybody must be completely and hopelessly cornered by their traumas in the same way Maruki is and he perceived Rumi to be, so the only cure is to totally excise those traumatic memories even if it means also removing key aspects of a person's identity (or their entire identity, in Sumire's case). A phenomenally written "well meaning but woefully misguided" antagonist.
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Feb 4, 2023 04:42
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ajkalan posted:But Adam Kadmon is arguably the coolest looking final boss design in the series, so who can say if he's wrong or not How well that persona fits (P5R 3rd semester spoilers) Maruki's entire situation still blows my mind. Like, the persona series never really took much from Kabbalah. Everything remotely close from Judeo-Christian mythos was usually whatever pop-Christian variant. A being as close to God as possible without being God, yet still formless, more like a force of nature but simultaneously divine. Fitting for the guy who is trying to act as a god without being a god who still manifests a force more powerful than pretty much any small-'g' god ever conceived.
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Feb 4, 2023 05:02
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The transition from Blind Idiot God to Perfect Man is great symbolism for Maruki's intense god complex.
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Feb 4, 2023 05:04
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Yeah, I like Maruki as an antagonist largely because his motivations explain his actions so well. Everything stems from him inadvertently wiping himself from Rumi's mind and needing to justify that to himself as having been necessary. It's just a little frustrating that a power that could be used for immense good is treated as inherently wrong because a guy is using it stupidly. Maruki's arguments ("sometimes there's nothing you can do and bad things cause permanent harm with zero upside") are basically correct if applied to many issues, and particularly material ones (which it seems like his powers are somehow capable of addressing). I feel like the game partially acknowledges this with the homeless guy who is still homeless in Maruki's world. So while Maruki's actions are wrong, the Phantom Thieves are also wrong (and a bit hypocritical) with their "accepting the ways things are is for the best" argument (since the real problem with Maruki's actions is the "brainwashing without consent" part, not the "changing peoples' lives" one).
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Feb 4, 2023 05:08
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To be fair Morgana does have a line where he straight up tells Maruki that his power could be genuinely helpful to people if he put in the work to recognize who selectively needs it, but instead he decided to force it on everybody so it's time to get owned by the Phantom Thieves. But yeah it's an avenue that probably deserved to be explored more than just a throwaway line or two.
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Feb 4, 2023 05:15
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Sydin posted:To be fair Morgana does have a line where he straight up tells Maruki that his power could be genuinely helpful to people if he put in the work to recognize who selectively needs it, but instead he decided to force it on everybody so it's time to get owned by the Phantom Thieves. But yeah it's an avenue that probably deserved to be explored more than just a throwaway line or two. Ah, I forgot about that! I feel like it would have been pretty easy to address, since it doesn't require an actual change to the plot. Maruki is only able to do this stuff in the first place because of his hosed up views, so there's no actual option of "Maruki's powers, but used well." So you'd just need some changes to dialogue that frame "you're brainwashing people, and in ways that don't even truly address their problems (and often make them even worse, as in Sumire)" as the main motive for opposing him, as opposed to the one we ended up with where it just seems like they're opposed to the very concept of using powers to change reality.
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Feb 4, 2023 05:22
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That option does exist. Take the deal. I can't fix him.
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Feb 4, 2023 05:40
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Every one of you who defeated maruki killed that little girl's dog. I will make you see, by the myriad truths, how wrong you are. Or face the sinful shell. I have completed the true rehabilitation. There is no room for discussion here
HootTheOwl fucked around with this message at 05:45 on Feb 4, 2023 |
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Feb 4, 2023 05:42
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Delusional homie
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Feb 4, 2023 05:44
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Gaius Marius posted:Delusional homie Behold the myriad truths!
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Feb 4, 2023 05:45
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:I get the feeling P4 does not intend for you to clear dungeons the day they open up. Well that's gonna be a problem down the road, but at least I managed to barely squeak through the first one. The first dungeon is the hardest to clear in a single day, as you'll eventually get help with the main issue (SP). If there is anybody who didn't at least fight to clear the November dungeon in a single day I do not want to meet this person.
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Feb 4, 2023 09:28
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I like the part in that one Persona 3 song where it goes "doodoodoo doo wah"
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Feb 4, 2023 09:52
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P5R final boss spoilers. One thing I really love is how it works to sell Maruki as a cognitive psientist. He doesn't have a Morgana telling him all the lore, but by coming in with no preconceptions and working off just what he sees and hears he does wild stuff. His whole plan only worked because he was able to come up with it all from Joker telling him fairly basic stuff about Mementos. Then when you actually fight him he's like, "How did you call this power forth? 'Persona.'" because obviously he's seen them doing it a bunch in his palace. And when he's finally cornered he takes the, "I am Thou and Thou art I," concept to its logical conclusion and merges himself fully with Adam Kadmon. For all his lack of imagination when it comes to creating a perfect world, the cognitive world is a place where his creativity really shines. I hope P6 does something with having a cognitive psientist in your actual team who can explore this stuff more. Plus there's a ready made source of drama in pitting them against the Morgana/Teddie type character. Unless the psientist completely replaces them as the Metaverse expert in the group.
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Feb 4, 2023 13:57
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