Ukraine: The Aristoblyats

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Internet VFW > Ukraine: The Aristoblyats

Arishtat: Jan 2, 2011

So all shitposting and personal attacks aside the Ukranian Ministry of Foreign Affairs responded to Human Rights Watch with this statement: https://mfa.gov.ua/en/news/komentar-mzs-ukrayini-shchodo-zvitu-organizaciyi-human-rights-watch

Ukrainian Ministry of Foreign Affairs posted:

Ukraine took note of the Report of the International Non-Governmental Organization Human Rights Watch (HRW), which will be duly studied by the competent authorities of Ukraine.

Ukraine, exercising its right to self-defense in accordance with Article 51 of the UN Charter, fully implements its international obligations while russian occupants commit the war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide of the Ukrainian people.

Convention on the Prohibition of the Use, Stockpiling, Production and Transfer of Anti-Personnel Mines and on their Destruction (Ottawa Convention) and Convention on Prohibitions or Restrictions on the Use of Certain Conventional Weapons which may be deemed to be Excessively Injurious or to have Indiscriminate Effects (CCW) are important international instruments to ban such inhumane weapons as anti-personnel land mines.

The events of the last year proved that it is important now more than ever to universalize these multilateral mechanisms in the field of disarmament and arms control. We do expect that HRW, together with its international partners from non-governmental organizations and the entire world community, will intensify efforts in this direction, in particular, increase pressure on the russian federation to immediately cease the criminal war against Ukraine with its use of the entire range of inhumane weapons and to return to compliance with the international law.

We remind that according to the Ottawa Convention Ukraine has already destroyed 3 million antipersonnel mines, including stockpiles of extremely hazardous mines POM-2. Attacking Ukraine russia has used and continue to use all spectrum of prohibited mines, including those highly dangerous for civilians POM-3 �Medallion�.

Ukrainian side has always demonstrated its readiness for cooperation with the international non-governmental organizations, including the number of meetings with HRW representatives held last year.

We expect that HRW will actively assist Ukraine in order to consolidate international efforts on providing mine action relief to our state.

I only found out about the response by re-reading the Human Rights Watch post from 31 January 2023 where the response was noted inline in italics but without a timestamp or page revision history it's kind of hard to track when that was added. The Ukranian MofFA statement doesn't explicitly deny the use of antipersonnel landmines but it does state that "We remind that according to the Ottawa Convention Ukraine has already destroyed 3 million antipersonnel mines, including stockpiles of extremely hazardous mines POM-2. Attacking Ukraine russia [sic] has used and continue to use all spectrum of prohibited mines, including those highly dangerous for civilians POM-3 �Medallion�."

The POM-2 and POM-3 mines called out in the response are air-dropped antipersonnel mines of the 'Bouncing Betty' type, i.e. these guys:

Is it possible that they were employed trying to slow the advance of Russian forces in the spring of 2022? Yes.

Is it also possible that the Ukrainian government is lying about the employment of scattered mines? Yeah.

Is it likely given that Ukraine depends heavily on outside support and international goodwill to continue prosecuting the war? No.

The core case that the report makes for Ukrainian usage of scatterable PFM-1 mines is in these three paragraphs:

Human Rights Watch posted:

Human Rights Watch saw physical evidence of PFM antipersonnel mine use in seven of the nine areas in and around Izium. This includes unexploded mines, remnants of mines, and the metal cassettes that carry the mines in rockets. In multiple locations, researchers observed blast signatures that were consistent with the amount of explosive contained in PFM antipersonnel mines. In the two other areas, multiple witnesses said they had seen mines that matched the description of PFM mines.

In six of the nine areas, witnesses described attacks consistent with landmines delivered by rocket artillery. In three locations in the Izium area, Human Rights Watch saw how the rocket motor of an Uragan-series artillery rocket, which can be used for mine dispersal, was lodged in the ground or had hit a building in such a way that indicated it had come from the direction where Ukrainian forces controlled territory, and were within the 35-kilometer maximum range of these rockets, at the time of the attack.

The nine areas were all close to where Russian military forces were positioned at the time, suggesting they were the target. Russian forces were retreating from these positions in early September, but witnesses said that the two attacks Human Rights Watch documented on September 9 and 10 occurred when Russian forces were still present in those areas.

Barring additional evidence this is at best a correlative relationship even assuming that the stockpile of PFM-1 equipped rockets mentioned later in the report still exists, much less was released for use by the Ukrainian military.

Human Rights Watch posted:

Ukraine inherited a substantial stockpile of antipersonnel mines after the breakup of the Soviet Union. It destroyed more than 3.4 million antipersonnel mines between 1999 and 2020, including PFM mines. In 2021, Ukraine reported to the UN secretary-general that 3.3 million stockpiled PFM mines still need to be destroyed. According to Ukrainian officials, the only type of antipersonnel mines remaining in Ukraine�s stockpiles are PFM mines contained in 9M27K3 220mm rockets. Human Rights Watch previously documented the use of antipersonnel mines in Ukraine in 2014 and 2015 by Russian-backed armed groups.

At this point it would be very difficult to prove usage without a leak such as video footage of PFM-1 carrying rockets somewhere in the field in Eastern Ukraine or paperwork documenting the transfer of the rockets from storage to a line unit.

The bottom line is that in my opinion it is far more likely that the PFM-1 mines were found adjacent to remnants of a conventional explosive Uragan rocket and the theorycrafting spun from there.

EDIT: added names to clarify the origin of the quotes

Arishtat fucked around with this message at 05:41 on Feb 4, 2023

# ? Feb 4, 2023 05:30

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# ? Jun 1, 2024 02:26

M_Gargantua: Oct 16, 2006; STOMP'N ON INTO THE POWERLINES; Exciting Lemon

If you do have to destroy the village to save it there are plenty of regular, large bombs capable of doing that without the long term ramifications of anti-personnel mines.

# ? Feb 4, 2023 05:35

My Spirit Otter: Jun 15, 2006; CANADA DOESN'T GET PENS LIKE THIS

SKILCRAFT KREW Reppin' Quality Blind Made American Products. Bitch.

Crab Dad posted:

Lose there will be no Ukrainians. This has been made very clear by Russia.

people arent condemning the mining because it was methodically laid out positions marked on internal maps and marked as a mine field, to slow an advance, but indiscriminately launched cluster mines near russian-occupied towns

# ? Feb 4, 2023 05:39

Gaius Marius: Oct 9, 2012

I think we everyone should be united in making sure post war Ukrainian's have a leg up not a leg off

# ? Feb 4, 2023 05:41

mllaneza: Apr 28, 2007; Veteran, Bermuda Triangle Expeditionary Force, 1993-1952

Gaius Marius posted:

I think we everyone should be united in making sure post war Ukrainian's have a leg up not a leg off

# ? Feb 4, 2023 06:28

Quackles: Aug 11, 2018; Pixels of Light.

Gaius Marius posted:

I think we everyone should be united in making sure post war Ukrainian's have a leg up not a leg off

# ? Feb 4, 2023 06:48

Comrade Blyatlov: Aug 4, 2007; should have picked four fingers

Gaius Marius posted:

I think we everyone should be united in making sure post war Ukrainian's have a leg up not a leg off

loving hell

# ? Feb 4, 2023 06:53

Steezo: Jun 16, 2003; Now go away, or I shall taunt you a second time!

Lovely Joe Stalin posted:

Out of interest, have you spent much time near firing artillery?

I have and gently caress Russia, they can go get hosed with a rusty pipe.

# ? Feb 4, 2023 07:31

Herstory Begins Now: Aug 5, 2003; SOME REALLY TEDIOUS DUMB SHIT THAT SUCKS ASS TO READ ->>

Gaius Marius posted:

I think we everyone should be united in making sure post war Ukrainian's have a leg up not a leg off

lord almighty

# ? Feb 4, 2023 08:51

madeintaipei: Jul 13, 2012

Herstory Begins Now posted:

lord almighty

Christ on a crutch

# ? Feb 4, 2023 09:39

Murgos: Oct 21, 2010

OctaMurk posted:

Friend, while your on probation, do yourself a favor and buy WARNO. Its better than Wargame was.

Have they added the single player campaign and single player QoL improvements they promised, yet?

Cause, as much as I like the premise of Eugen�s RTS games they really sort of suck unless you are a hyper focused cpm master.

# ? Feb 4, 2023 14:18

slurm: Jul 28, 2022; by Hand Knit

Gaius Marius posted:

I think we everyone should be united in making sure post war Ukrainian's have a leg up not a leg off

# ? Feb 4, 2023 14:38

OctaMurk: Jun 21, 2013

Murgos posted:

Have they added the single player campaign and single player QoL improvements they promised, yet?

Cause, as much as I like the premise of Eugen’s RTS games they really sort of suck unless you are a hyper focused cpm master.

No singleplayer campaign yet, hold off if that is a big draw for you. The game does have a lot of general QoL improvements from SD2 and some of its own too.

# ? Feb 4, 2023 15:53

EasilyConfused: Nov 21, 2009; one strong toad

Gaius Marius posted:

I think we everyone should be united in making sure post war Ukrainian's have a leg up not a leg off

# ? Feb 4, 2023 15:53

Hyrax Attack!: Jan 13, 2009; We demand to be taken seriously

Alan Smithee posted:

https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1621538639485308933

Didn�t Soviet propaganda claim resourceful civilians took out a poorly supported panzer with sledgehammers? Although with the scale of the war and how there was a documented longbow kill & an elderly Crete man beat a Fallschirmj�ger to death with his cane, assuming someone must have brought down a fighter with a musket.

# ? Feb 4, 2023 21:56

Alan Smithee: Jan 4, 2005; A man becomes preeminent, he's expected to have enthusiasms.

Enthusiasms, enthusiasms...

i mean if a tank found itsself in the wrong part of town you could probably blind the optics easy and from there just gum up the works, but Football riot to counter tanks is probably not the best strat overall

# ? Feb 4, 2023 23:26

Bored As Fuck: Jan 1, 2006; Fun Shoe

Hyrax Attack! posted:

Didn’t Soviet propaganda claim resourceful civilians took out a poorly supported panzer with sledgehammers? Although with the scale of the war and how there was a documented longbow kill & an elderly Crete man beat a Fallschirmjäger to death with his cane, assuming someone must have brought down a fighter with a musket.

One dude took out a Panzer with an Axe. He was a cook. Dude ruled.

# ? Feb 4, 2023 23:30

Coasterphreak: May 29, 2007; I like cookies.

I think the internet has broken me because I�m laughing at a page full of jokes about people being maimed or killed.

Then again, I greatly enjoy John Wick movies.

# ? Feb 4, 2023 23:34

Alan Smithee: Jan 4, 2005; A man becomes preeminent, he's expected to have enthusiasms.

Enthusiasms, enthusiasms...

Coasterphreak posted:

I think the internet has broken me because I�m laughing at a page full of jokes about people being maimed or killed.

Then again, I greatly enjoy John Wick movies.

the worldbuilding makes more sense

# ? Feb 4, 2023 23:45

Jimmy Smuts: Aug 8, 2000

Coasterphreak posted:

I think the internet has broken me because I�m laughing at a page full of jokes about people being maimed or killed.

Well, hail (SS-18) Satan so...

# ? Feb 5, 2023 00:36

Hyrax Attack!: Jan 13, 2009; We demand to be taken seriously

Alan Smithee posted:

the worldbuilding makes more sense

The first one holds up especially the spectacular nightclub shootout, but dang the sequel made me stop trusting rotten tomatoes. Trying to have a serious plot around the idea of New York having an assassination based economy?

# ? Feb 5, 2023 01:08

GD_American: Jul 21, 2004; LISTEN TO WHAT I HAVE TO SAY AS IT'S INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT!

Jimmy Smuts posted:

Well, hail (SS-18) Satan so...

The S-35 Progress missile was doing more than 600 miles per hour when it hit Satan in the chest. The kinetic energy of the blow alone was enough to send Satan reeling backwards but that was inconsequential. The missile also had a 3,300 pound explosive warhead that was configured as a shaped charge. Normally it had a copper lining but this one had been modified with an iron liner and sintered iron powder in the cavity. One thing hadn�t changed; the warhead on Progress was behind the main fuel tank and that tank was filled to capacity with jet engine fuel.

The explosion as the warhead went off was powerful enough to bring rocks down from the ceiling and enough even to roil the lava far below. It blasted a mixture of iron plasma, powdered iron and blazing jet fuel deep into Satan�s chest, leaving him blasted burned and poisoned. The great figure, its chest ripped open and splayed apart staggered backwards, slumping down to the floor to sprawl out in a pool of boiling purple blood. Incredibly, the body was already beginning to repair itself when a second missile erupted through the portal.

The operator had done a fine job with the first missile, he�d hit a small moving target with a weapon never designed for the task and which had been hastily modified. The second shot was much easier. Satan�s body was almost still and the few twitches it made didn�t affect the firing solution. The second Progress missile plowed straight into Satan�s head, vaporizing it completely. The great body gave one more jerk and was still. Satan was dead.

# ? Feb 5, 2023 02:25

M_Gargantua: Oct 16, 2006; STOMP'N ON INTO THE POWERLINES; Exciting Lemon

Tactically nuke Cthulhu

# ? Feb 5, 2023 03:02

Comrade Blyatlov: Aug 4, 2007; should have picked four fingers

M_Gargantua posted:

Tactically nuke Cthulhu

No you'll only make it stronger

# ? Feb 5, 2023 03:36

Icon Of Sin: Dec 26, 2008

M_Gargantua posted:

Tactically nuke Cthulhu

You�ll do by accident what cultists failed to do by design.

# ? Feb 5, 2023 03:48

Pine Cone Jones: Dec 6, 2009; You throw me the acorn, I throw you the whip!

M_Gargantua posted:

Tactically nuke Cthulhu

Read A Colder War by Charles Stross.

# ? Feb 5, 2023 03:50

Kei Technical: Sep 20, 2011

Pine Cone Jones posted:

Read A Colder War by Charles Stross.

A novella that answers an honestly important question: how cool would a nuclear ekranoplan be?

# ? Feb 5, 2023 03:52

Terrifying Effigies: Oct 22, 2008; Problems look mighty small from 150 miles up.

Kei Technical posted:

A novella that answers an honestly important question: how cool would a nuclear ekranoplan be?

I think you're thinking of Missile Gap (another excellent Stross Cold War scifi)

# ? Feb 5, 2023 03:57

papasyhotcakes: Oct 18, 2008

GD_American posted:

The S-35 Progress missile was doing more than 600 miles per hour when it hit Satan in the chest. The kinetic energy of the blow alone was enough to send Satan reeling backwards but that was inconsequential. The missile also had a 3,300 pound explosive warhead that was configured as a shaped charge. Normally it had a copper lining but this one had been modified with an iron liner and sintered iron powder in the cavity. One thing hadn’t changed; the warhead on Progress was behind the main fuel tank and that tank was filled to capacity with jet engine fuel.

The explosion as the warhead went off was powerful enough to bring rocks down from the ceiling and enough even to roil the lava far below. It blasted a mixture of iron plasma, powdered iron and blazing jet fuel deep into Satan’s chest, leaving him blasted burned and poisoned. The great figure, its chest ripped open and splayed apart staggered backwards, slumping down to the floor to sprawl out in a pool of boiling purple blood. Incredibly, the body was already beginning to repair itself when a second missile erupted through the portal.

The operator had done a fine job with the first missile, he’d hit a small moving target with a weapon never designed for the task and which had been hastily modified. The second shot was much easier. Satan’s body was almost still and the few twitches it made didn’t affect the firing solution. The second Progress missile plowed straight into Satan’s head, vaporizing it completely. The great body gave one more jerk and was still. Satan was dead.

I have been trying to track down an story someone was writing in some forums about an invasion of hell set in the the modern world. It featured at first the great legions of demons pouring through a portal and then getting their asses handed to them by the military and afterwards the invasion of hell by the humans when they realize they can actually win. Is this from that story?

# ? Feb 5, 2023 04:04

Kei Technical: Sep 20, 2011

Terrifying Effigies posted:

I think you're thinking of Missile Gap (another excellent Stross Cold War scifi)

Ah poo poo, you�re right.

Enjoy fanart as compensation: https://itcrawlsthroughthefax.tumblr.com/post/131482465046/smelost-sketches-soviet-nuclear-ekranoplan

# ? Feb 5, 2023 04:08

Hyrax Attack!: Jan 13, 2009; We demand to be taken seriously

papasyhotcakes posted:

I have been trying to track down an story someone was writing in some forums about an invasion of hell set in the the modern world. It featured at first the great legions of demons pouring through a portal and then getting their asses handed to them by the military and afterwards the invasion of hell by the humans when they realize they can actually win. Is this from that story?

Is this it? https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/TheSalvationWar

# ? Feb 5, 2023 04:15

Steezo: Jun 16, 2003; Now go away, or I shall taunt you a second time!

papasyhotcakes posted:

I have been trying to track down an story someone was writing in some forums about an invasion of hell set in the the modern world. It featured at first the great legions of demons pouring through a portal and then getting their asses handed to them by the military and afterwards the invasion of hell by the humans when they realize they can actually win. Is this from that story?

Reminds me of the better bits of Argonian lore to come out after Oblivion. They not only fought off Mehrunes forces, they pushed back, invaded part of his plane and went "this is nice, I like it here" and built some settlements.

# ? Feb 5, 2023 04:19

Pine Cone Jones: Dec 6, 2009; You throw me the acorn, I throw you the whip!

http://www.infinityplus.co.uk/stories/colderwar.htm

A very good novella worth your time. A scenario set during the cold war wherein the soviets attempt to control shoggoths to use in Afghanistan which quickly snowballs into much worse things.

# ? Feb 5, 2023 04:20

papasyhotcakes: Oct 18, 2008

Hyrax Attack! posted:

Is this it? https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/TheSalvationWar

This is it! Thank you so much! A shame that the author died before finishing it 😢 but at least I can read the first two parts.

# ? Feb 5, 2023 06:35

mllaneza: Apr 28, 2007; Veteran, Bermuda Triangle Expeditionary Force, 1993-1952

Pine Cone Jones posted:

http://www.infinityplus.co.uk/stories/colderwar.htm

A very good novella worth your time. A scenario set during the cold war wherein the soviets attempt to control shoggoths to use in Afghanistan which quickly snowballs into much worse things.

That's a really, really creepy story. Stross completely nails the tone. The hair on the back of my neck stood up when the penny dropped for what I was looking at. It's the Iran Contra team, but with shoggoths and worse, much worse, things. Having those assholes anywhere near national defense was bad enough, here they're literally working with things mankind was not meant to know and should never gently caress with. As a bonus, the story includes Project Pluto nuclear ramjets intended to bomb the hell out of a greater entity. That URL is one of the pro-est of clicks and I'd have linked it if I hadn't been efb.

# ? Feb 5, 2023 09:28

Herman Merman: Jul 6, 2008

papasyhotcakes posted:

This is it! Thank you so much! A shame that the author died before finishing it 😢 but at least I can read the first two parts.

The writing is really terrible but the OORAH gently caress YOU SATAN element is somewhat intriguing, thanks for reading my review.

# ? Feb 5, 2023 11:55

Humbug Scoolbus: Apr 25, 2008; The scarlet letter was her passport into regions where other women dared not tread. Shame, Despair, Solitude! These had been her teachers, stern and wild ones, and they had made her strong, but taught her much amiss.; Clapping Larry

mllaneza posted:

That's a really, really creepy story. Stross completely nails the tone. The hair on the back of my neck stood up when the penny dropped for what I was looking at. It's the Iran Contra team, but with shoggoths and worse, much worse, things. Having those assholes anywhere near national defense was bad enough, here they're literally working with things mankind was not meant to know and should never gently caress with. As a bonus, the story includes Project Pluto nuclear ramjets intended to bomb the hell out of a greater entity. That URL is one of the pro-est of clicks and I'd have linked it if I hadn't been efb.

The ending of that story is bleak to an insane level. I've been recommending it for years. Definite proclick.

# ? Feb 5, 2023 17:25

Fivemarks: Feb 21, 2015

Humbug Scoolbus posted:

The ending of that story is bleak to an insane level. I've been recommending it for years. Definite proclick.

It and Missile Gap are the only good things Stross has ever done. His Laundry stories are just straight up bad, especially stuff like Equuiod.

# ? Feb 5, 2023 18:06

GD_American: Jul 21, 2004; LISTEN TO WHAT I HAVE TO SAY AS IT'S INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT!

Yeah Salvation War is pretty goony but worth a read when you want a chuckle. Scratches a Clancy itch and the author wasn't an insane horny chud.

# ? Feb 5, 2023 18:19

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# ? Jun 1, 2024 02:26

Cugel the Clever: Apr 5, 2009; I LOVE AMERICA AND CAPITALISM DESPITE BEING POOR AS FUCK. I WILL NEVER RETIRE BUT HERE'S ANOTHER 200$ FOR UKRAINE, SLAVA

Fivemarks posted:

It and Missile Gap are the only good things Stross has ever done. His Laundry stories are just straight up bad, especially stuff like Equuiod.

I attempted to read the first of the Laundry Files books and it didn't click at all after a few chapters. Maybe I'll have to give these a preview, though.

# ? Feb 5, 2023 18:25

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