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socialsecurity posted:Who said it was? Pretty much every article on the matter thinks it’s something to be concerned about. Places are already trying to implement programs to get more men in to college, so obviously they think it’s bad to have unequal gender enrollment. If the trends continue and in another 20 years we’re looking at 70-30 female to male ratio in college, then things are going to start getting “weird” in that we’ll likely start seeing women overtake men in places of power. Now something like that could take another 50+ years, but it would seem inevitable if men are that outnumbered in college degrees. May not be a bad thing, but it would definitely be not normal compared to current society, and that probably concerns some people.
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Feb 4, 2023 00:51
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Randalor posted:No one explicitly did, but going by how a fair number of people were discussing why so many men were not getting college educations made me think that this was some terrible thing that I was somehow missing. If it's just "slow news week, people wanted to discuss SOMETHING vaguely interesting", then that's a nice change of pace. It just feels like whenever there's a lot of discussion about a topic recently, there's always some doom-and-gloom reason. More women going to college than men isn't inherently bad. It's just the sheer scale of the change in a relatively small amount of time + part of the cause is that men are rapidly declining in relative educational achievement and income. It's basically 2:1 right now and it is still expanding. Combined with the fact that single women are now out earning single men and are becoming homeowners at a higher rate than men very rapidly, it is a huge social and economic change where one sex is rapidly declining and the other is rapidly rising. There's not a 100% clear reason why it is happening simultaneously across (almost) all developed countries. A collapse of education, income, and social/romantic relationships among men all at once has big social implications for both sexes. It will become basically numerically impossible for a large chunk of women to ever find a partner with their same level of education or income. You also have a large minority of men who are all becoming economically, socially, and educationally separated from the rest of society and deteriorating. When a large chunk of men are getting no education, no homes, and no incomes + no romantic/social partners, it means they have to survive on their own. But, when your education, income, and homeownership rates are all dropping dramatically and you have no social support or romantic partner, then it is very hard to survive on your own.
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Feb 4, 2023 00:55
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Dopilsya posted:Basically half of the kids these days are non-white and less than a third of them own guns. In 2022, male youth voted 53% for democrats. And while I'm younger than a lot of posters here, I'm not really connected with what the kids are into these days, but I still can't seriously imagine an 18 year old linking the Dobbs decision to higher education not being necessary. In fact, if anything it shows a surprising amount of civic engagement; if a kid told me that those things were all being taken care of, I'd expect him to be wearing a loving bow tie and waxing poetic about how he plans to join the Federalist Society when he gets to UVA or whatever. I don’t have stats on that, it was conjectured in the Atlantic article I believe. There’s still a lot more men in those blue collar jobs though. We’re talking on the margins too, if this affects 15% more men than women, it creates a disparity. If everyone you know is from the city or the burbs, then think about how many kids live in rural areas with very few college educated people around them. I have a whole side of my family from rural Illinois and none went to college because they all planned to get jobs in the farming industry. There’s definitely a feedback mechanism to this.
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Feb 4, 2023 00:58
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This seems like a question that functionally requires a cross-sectional survey, possibly of both college-age men and their parents.
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Feb 4, 2023 01:00
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Bird in a Blender posted:Pretty much every article on the matter thinks it’s something to be concerned about. Places are already trying to implement programs to get more men in to college, so obviously they think it’s bad to have unequal gender enrollment. I don't think any of those changes are a bad thing, but economic changes mean not getting a college education in a 1st world country is grossly undercutting quality of life which is a breeding ground for far right demagogues, so that's concerning. I do think there's a cultural element, of what society deems masculine and demands of men doesn't line up with how to navigate the world successfully. Just as an example, a large majority of my female friends have gone to therapy and a lot are actively in it while only a few male friends have done so. And it's not a mystery why-- they're very supportive of it, but I went to a session and made the mistake of revealing that outside of my current bubble (coastal, highly educated, left-leaning) and got immediately poo poo on for it (too weak to be a real man, you see). Discendo Vox posted:This seems like a question that functionally requires a cross-sectional survey, possibly of both college-age men and their parents. Hard pass. I'd rather argue my gut feelings and don't need any facts to get in my way. Dopilsya fucked around with this message at 01:08 on Feb 4, 2023 |
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Feb 4, 2023 01:03
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Hyper masculinity is a response to being unable to meet the norms of normal masculinity. The Proud Boys are a pretty good example of that at work. That’s all coming from a deeply insecure place. This all also isn’t really separate from terrorist radicalization, either. Young men need meaning and purpose and place. Malign folks can offer them distorted versions and a identity. So yes it’s a BFD of a problem.
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Feb 4, 2023 01:18
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Bar Ran Dun posted:Hyper masculinity is a response to being unable to meet the norms of normal masculinity. Left to it's "natural" course, highly educated women "marry down" to househusbands who find their purpose becoming the primary domestic engineer and childrearing partner for a few generations or ten.
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Feb 4, 2023 01:46
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Cheesus posted:Not saying it's not a problem, but it's not a BFD kind of problem. That’s a rather loaded assumption. “Natural” course carry’s a lot of weight in that assertion. It’s an appeal to myth btw. Where has it naturally played out like that in the past?
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Feb 4, 2023 01:52
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I suspect Cheesus is saying that that's how we got women forced into housewife roles in the past, more or less, and now the uncomfortable high heeled shoe is on the other foot
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Feb 4, 2023 02:01
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There's going to be an interesting intersection of college-educated women delaying childbirth, upheaval in modern family structures (return to multi-generational households, male/female breadwinner shifts), micro-plastics in our bloodstreams and reproductive systems, climate change forcing more urgent migration, science exploring the use of artificial wombs and the rise of artificial intelligence. All of my favorite high school sci-fi stories are coming true, and it's actually kind of scary.
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Feb 4, 2023 02:04
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Google Jeb Bush posted:I suspect Cheesus is saying that that's how we got women forced into housewife roles in the past, more or less, and now the uncomfortable high heeled shoe is on the other foot Yes but where the shoe has been on the other foot, it’s often led to more oppressive sex roles and more misogyny. Why would we expect a different outcome now?
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Feb 4, 2023 02:42
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What I've seen is two things, using pure anecdotal data based on my high-school acquaintances: 1) Men are more likely to find a manual labor job that doesn't need college degree. 2) Men are more likely to just fall apart and drop out of society. Women in contrast usually end up going for some degree, and even if they mess everything else about their lives up they can still get attached to a man and be a SAHM. Again, purely anecdotal.
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Feb 4, 2023 03:05
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Dopilsya posted:Hard pass. I'd rather argue my gut feelings and don't need any facts to get in my way. Too bad, motherfucker  New America's been running annual surveys of opinions on higher education for several years now. Proper stratification may help partially explain gender variance; though their visualizer only allows a single axis (and the dataset has other limitations). At a glance, there's a persistent, but slight, cross-sectional gender difference on perceived value of higher education. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 03:26 on Feb 4, 2023 |
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Feb 4, 2023 03:23
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Bar Ran Dun posted:Yes but where the shoe has been on the other foot, it’s often led to more oppressive sex roles and more misogyny. And I hope it doesn't sound like Im belittling the idea of "househusbands" as some kind of mocking. As a white male, there are times when I feel like my time would better serve society spending more time taking care of/teaching my kid than pushing the loving buttons to make the stupid numbers go up for techbros.
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Feb 4, 2023 03:42
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I wouldn’t count on any long-term stability like a do-over of 1950-2000 but with girls as the patriarchy. The US is in decline and I can’t imagine global warming is going to help.
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Feb 4, 2023 03:50
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American parents raise males to be "tough" and strong, or whatever that means and dumb. It doesn't matter what society influence is when they get their toxicity from home before they even interact with society at large.
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Feb 4, 2023 03:53
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Cheesus posted:If women become the dominant power in America, economically and politically, I don't see how wide spread misogyny could effectively be. There is always reaction. We already have existing organized social reaction to this trend.
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Feb 4, 2023 03:54
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Cheesus posted:If women become the dominant power in America, economically and politically, I don't see how wide spread misogyny could effectively be. I mean a whole lot of the patriarchy is held up by women who hate women. Things would certainly improve to for women if they had more power and influence, but never assume that someone is going to do the rational thing that is in their best interests. There are plenty of middle class, well educated white women who make Hitler look like a loving amateur. Their hated for everything not them is all consuming and blinding in it's intensity. People are people, the particular bits between their legs don't change the mechanics of hatred as much as you'd think.
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Feb 4, 2023 03:55
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Also, hosed up marriage markets typically strongly correlate to civil unrest and what is colloquially known as The Cool Zone. It’s a legitimate problem.
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Feb 4, 2023 04:03
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Cheesus posted:If women become the dominant power in America, economically and politically, I don't see how wide spread misogyny could effectively be. Iirc, in nursing where women significantly outnumber men, men are still overrepresented proportionally in leadership positions like unit directors, charge nurses, and clinical leaders. In addition, as women enter fields, those fields tend to slowly become less prestigious. So, as women become more and more educated compared to men, I don't necessarily see societal power shifting in favor of women so much as just devaluing higher education. Hell, there are already pushes to do that for other reasons in the form of pushing trade schools instead. I'm not saying there aren't good reasons for that, just that there are easy ways to coopt existing movements to devalue higher education as women start dominating that area.
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Feb 4, 2023 04:06
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To not be able to be what you are expected by society to be or expect yourself to be is intolerable. It’s not a right or left thing. Both the right and the left cause it in different ways. Years ago I used this phrase: diastasis against modernity. Diastatis is: A pulling apart to the sides from the center. It’s slight modification of something Karl Barth said way back in like the thirties. Intolerability, the existential revolt drives that diastasis. With young men failing to be what they expect the danger is that it pulls apart toward the right wing. I’m going to cross post something I wrote for another thread to explain this. Bar Ran Dun fucked around with this message at 04:34 on Feb 4, 2023 |
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Feb 4, 2023 04:31
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It’s weird that we imagine conservative young men as uniquely alienated and frustrated by the status quo. Nobody I know is happy, but we understand who to blame. It’s not like most women have good lives, either.
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Feb 4, 2023 04:43
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How many of us would have killed to have been in college with a two-to-one ration of women to men? Be honest.
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Feb 4, 2023 04:47
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Bar Ran Dun posted:To not be able to be what you are expected by society to be or expect yourself to be is intolerable. It’s not a right or left thing. Both the right and the left cause it in different ways. This was original written for a religion thread to explain the concept of “existential revolt” So I was going to try to explain this existentialism business with Everything Everywhere All at Once, and other media and the whole issue of the personal and ideas (and this universals came up)... Let’s start where we did before with the “existential revolt”. This in EEAAO is Joy’s reaction to her mother refusing to call her girlfriend a girlfriend to the grandfather. Other examples of this moment are the previously discussed the “I’d prefer not to” of Bartelby, or Shinji refusing to continue to pilot ( or to potentially exist at all). In other recent media we could look at Andor. No one is getting out!  For a less fictional example we could look at Martin Luther. The existential revolt happens when we are in an intolerable state. This could be caused by a system, our parents, ourselves, an authoritarian government, capitalism, etc. The core of the thing is that one is being prevented from being what one is. In recent years this has been very much present and expressed in the discourse of the LGBTQ community. This gets called many things alienation, separation, sin, despair, they all point to this state of intolerability or of non-being. In some descriptions of this excretory language is used (a lot of which which comes from Martin Luther “man is like a divine poo poo, he fell out of God's anus.”). It is when we cannot be and it is intolerable to continue.  So this revolt could appear as depression (Shinji and Bartleby) or rage (Captain Ahab or Joy). “You shouldn’t be here”  In the real world in reactions to authoritarianism we can see a similar bifurcation. A inactive existential revolt might be like “laying flat” in a Chinese context. Rage is obvious, riots, violence, and violent revolution. Now this moment of existentialist revolt first seems persona, intensely interpersonal. In EEAAO the existential revolt of Joy in one universe creates Jobu Tupaki, in NGE Shinji determines the fate of all existence in his existential revolt. In Andor with Cassian it starts the rebellion. In these stories the existential revolt is not just personal, it extends to all of reality or all of society. So intensely personal potentially universal: “Everyone has their own Rebellion” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCgf3J7TwfY We tip others into revolt with our own revolt. In a less fictional setting we could say the existential revolt is also revolutionary energy. Martin Luther’s life is a good example here to understand this. His existential revolt starts the Protestant Reformation. Generally when the individual is experiencing revolt because of intolerability other individuals are too. One could also look at Miguel Hidalgo for another historical example. The existential revolt is intensely personal and it is universal or revolutionary. Now the reason for a historical philosophical divide between the existentialists and communists on the left is probably becoming apparent. Authoritarian communists will find a need to characterize any existential revolt as counterrevolutionary (as authoritarianism will produce it). Any way what’s the Christian religious language for this? What is the state where we are intolerably separated from ourselves those we love and our God? Sin. We exist. To exist is to be separate (the state of sin). Sometimes to be separate, sin, is intolerable. This causes revolt either passive or active. This is say to sin and grace these things we think about as religious folk... are political.
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Feb 4, 2023 04:47
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I AM GRANDO posted:It’s weird that we imagine conservative young men as uniquely alienated and frustrated by the status quo. Nobody I know is happy, but we understand who to blame. It’s not like most women have good lives, either. It’s not unique. Most everyone is alienated and frustrated right now. That makes all this worse.
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Feb 4, 2023 04:56
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Celexi posted:American parents raise males to be "tough" and strong, or whatever that means and dumb. It doesn't matter what society influence is when they get their toxicity from home before they even interact with society at large. And that's all to say that I'm not sure I fully buy your take on how American parents raise males. I don't think being tough and strong are bad things. You can be a tough and strong guy while also being kind and empathetic and smart. I also don't really buy the idea that people are intentionally raised to be foolish. But honestly in my experience, I've run into dudes who go against being tough, strong, and dumb, and are still toxic pieces of poo poo. I've known rednecks who are the kindest people I've ever met. I think when we say toxic masculinity, I think we're talking about something else. I think that Mediocre's thesis resonates with me more, that the general issue we see with lovely men is: --A shared belief that they are entitled to greatness or supposed to be great which manifests into male superiority, resentment, and inferiority complexes as the system is not actually designed to reward them --A mythologizing of rebellion against some nebulous other that puts them down which can be weaponized and often misdirected
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Feb 4, 2023 05:05
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I AM GRANDO posted:It’s weird that we imagine conservative young men as uniquely alienated and frustrated by the status quo. Nobody I know is happy, but we understand who to blame. It’s not like most women have good lives, either. I don't think the argument is that it's unique, just that it's dangerous.
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Feb 4, 2023 05:06
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Gumball Gumption posted:I don't think the argument is that it's unique, just that it's dangerous. I think it’s also the root of a lot of our inability to talk to each other right now. If one has experienced that intolerable state and is then responded to with data or expert opinion that often turns into : “gently caress you”. Which in turn is then looked at as irrational.
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Feb 4, 2023 05:17
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Way I've seen is is that American- and Western males aren't even necessarily raised to be 'tough', 'strong', or 'hard'. If anything, the problem is that many of them aren't raised to be anything at all. Goons should have a lot of first-hand experience with this but it seems a lot more common than anyone things that young men especially in suburbs and regional areas are basically raised as indoor feral children, given little real guidance or attention beyond being thrown out into the playground and expected to figure things out. And at home, the parents mainly keep them alive and vaguely presentable while throwing consumer electronics at them to keep them quiet, and do nothing but stare blankly at the idea of their boys have any kind of problems or needing help and support, leading to them being raised by pop culture and the internet. Not that it's exclusive to boys, really, but definitely a specific observable phenomenon with them. Timeless Appeal posted:I think that Mediocre's thesis resonates with me more, that the general issue we see with lovely men is: There's definitely also a phenomenon especially with young men of post-boomer generations being raised to expect the world on a silver platter, having every authority figure in their lives reinforce that they will be rewarded for following the archetypes set out for them, then growing up to find out they got jack poo poo and not one of those authority figures they're told to listen to has any real answers.
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Feb 4, 2023 05:43
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Act 2 of the weird Chinese spy balloon story: Another Chinese weather balloon "blew off course" over Costa Rica today. China also forgot to notify Costa Rica about this off course balloon as well. https://www.politico.com/news/2023/02/03/pentagon-says-another-chinese-spy-balloon-spotted-over-latin-america-00081198 quote:The Chinese spy balloon above the United States isn’t the only one flying somewhere it shouldn’t be.
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Feb 4, 2023 06:12
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Leon Trotsky 2012 posted:amazon mega corp stuff tbh amazon trying to be the omni everything mega corp company doesnt bother me as much as all the random alphanum sellers and companies that sell (cheap knockoff) stuff. their under shirt that I might be wearing right now or is in my closet is better and lasted longer than more proper NAMEBRANDS though them doing otc and even medical RX (oh and me finding out literally right now. some sort of tele health/ tele clinic service now) is probably a cross line thats a bit tooo far.
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Feb 4, 2023 06:36
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Amazon has no incentive to do anything about that because they have so much market power that their listings being full of garbage doesn’t reduce their income very much
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Feb 4, 2023 06:39
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Star Man posted:How many of us would have killed to have been in college with a two-to-one ration of women to men? Be honest.  at this freudian slip
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Feb 4, 2023 07:23
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Bird in a Blender posted:From that Atlantic article, college enrollment for men is still up from 10 years ago, it's just that women's college enrollment has skyrocketed past. The cultural thing is touched on in the article too, and I largely agree with it. For a long time, men were able to find construction, manufacturing, and other labor heavy jobs easily, and those don't require a college education. The attitude that you didn't need a college education is still carried by a lot of blue-collar men. More women are entering the workforce, and they are pushed to go to college harder than men because men think they have more non-college alternatives. This is what I call the 'Reading is for fuckin' queers' problem, and it's not new. It seems pretty universal that in very general terms, rural and to some extent suburban areas tend to really discourage reading and acquiring "book knowledge". Because book-knowledge and book-learning is the hallmark of city-folk, those uptight, prancing fuckers that look down their noses at good, honest working folk and think that their poo poo don't stink, and if you - heaven forbid - like reading? Why, you're saying that you want to become like them, and turn your back on your roots and your community, betraying your roots and Your People to join up with those perverts at the universities with their homosexuality and atheism and fifty genders! Reading, in moderation, is okay for girls, but definitely not for MEN. Unless it's the sports-section, or a diagram of how to fix something like a tractor or a threshing-machine. Or maybe scripture. So, boy. What the gently caress are ya readin' for?! Now, obviously the above is a parody, but it's not that much of one. Certainly, where I grew up in the 1980s, reading was very much not an acceptable activity for a young boy. You were supposed to either do sports or attend church, and the expectation was that you'd go into manual labor of some kind. Plumber, farmer, construction-work, all fine choices. Wanting to get a degree was treated as if you had some sort of weird mental illness... which was expressed by the kids as 'reading is for queers'. Failing grades in certain subjects were badges of honor, not shame. If you did well in language or history or civics? By god you were a loving weirdo. And yeah, part of that attitude came from the fact that it really was a man's world back then and more often than not you didn't need more than a high-school or vocational-school diploma to get a job - certainly not if you were going to take over the farm. But it's also a deeply rooted problem in a specific type of masculine culture that's been lionized out of all proportion: The Cult of Man as Manual Laborer, with his salt-of-the-earth wisdom earned through lived experience, best summed up as "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach." Whatever Shaw originally meant, that pithy little line of bullshit has become an astounding devaluation of education, of knowledge, of improving your own mind, and most importantly, of listening to experts. And so, now that that mindset has seeped into enough of the culture that in our current society where a degree is just about mandatory for a decent job, men that hold to that view of the world are now the losers. And they will continue to be the losers, because holding on to that world-view just relegates them to the lower classes forever. Women and the men who are willing to buck those ideas? They'll rise to the top.
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Feb 4, 2023 07:41
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haveblue posted:Amazon has no incentive to do anything about that because they have so much market power that their listings being full of garbage doesn’t reduce their income very much Yup, I work at Amazon, albeit on the logistics side, and you can see it in the poo poo we package. If someone wants a specific name brand thing they'll search for it and get it. So you'll still see the big stuff: LEGO, Mr. Coffee, etc. etc. But it feels like 60-70% of the product we shift is from "companies" who's names are created by a random generator. Just Hctuz shirts and Pokyalu cheap silicone fidget poppers and Mokwa cheap knives.
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Feb 4, 2023 08:44
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I AM GRANDO posted:It’s weird that we imagine conservative young men as uniquely alienated and frustrated by the status quo. Nobody I know is happy, but we understand who to blame. It’s not like most women have good lives, either. I wouldn't say they're uniquely alienated and frustrated, as opposed to being uniquely coddled, given a massive media environment that says it is not their fault and finding sympathy across society. If you are a frustrated progressive black female you're not going to find an army of apologists running for your help from right, centre and left with billions of media pieces speculating as to why are you frustrated and how your frustration can be resolved. Some may imagine conservative (white) young men being uniquely frustrated but that is because the media highlights their frustration exponentially more compared to any other group and they have a larger voice in society.
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Feb 4, 2023 09:22
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A lot of men build these tough guy fantasies when their lives are falling apart, there's a lot of people who are not doing ok and got nothing to give themselves a sense of value besides peaky blinders tough guy memes and motivational text over pictures of lions. Also, and this is just my guess I don't know any research about this. I think it's about 5% of American adults are prescribed benzodiazepines and 10% that have used in the past year? Then on top of that, alcoholism is probably even higher. Then you have other kinds of drug abuse that lend themselves to bad politics, amphetamines don't help. I really think that's a part of it. There have been so many public right wing meltdown events that, no one seems to notice but I see them and think, that's what a lot of Xanax looks like. This guy I knew way back in the day publicly and embarrassingly went through it all, and the more his life fell apart the more hardcore into Qanon stuff he got until his wife left him and took the kids, and he went to rehab for all the meth. The more things proved him wrong the deeper he got into it, because he had to think of himself as good and successful and strong and poo poo. That sounds like a big, rare kind of trainwreck but I really think a lot more young men are like that than you'd think.
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Feb 4, 2023 13:48
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Discendo Vox posted:Too bad, motherfucker Thanks for that, that is interesting. The difference seems so little that enrollment splits can't just be due to some perception by men that it's less valuable or necessary. Star Man posted:How many of us would have killed to have been in college with a two-to-one ration of women to men? Be honest. I'm a grad student in this situation right now. NGL it's pretty sweet, but in some ways it's a little disorienting. I like a lot of traditionally male activities and there isn't really anyone to share that with. I wouldn't say I have any close male friends and that's something that I do miss out on. I know I'm like a millionaire complaining that my mansion doesn't have enough garage space for all fancy cars, so I never bring it up, but there it is. On the other hand, I know of several men that aren't exactly doing well with the dating pool here. They definitely come off as bitter and frustrated and even if they weren't they're still the sort of men that I would expect to not have many women interested in them to begin with. It's certainly not the majority, but it does surprise me how much in our liberal bubble if I go to an event I'll hear guys repeat a bunch of bullshit they got from Top G or pickup artists or talk about how to be an alpha male.
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Feb 4, 2023 13:56
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The phenomenon of people (young men) not living in or living up to the successful future they were promised is big, and it does lead to all sorts of issues. Alcohol/substance abuse, or bitter otherization (like "I'd be successful if it weren't for [group]" or "they think I'm the loser but I'm smarter/stronger/ otherwise better than them!") That definitely does make people more susceptible to all sorts of problematic messaging and ideologies, you throw the internet into that mix and you see people adopt some horrible and/or insane ideas. I've seen (and somewhat experienced) instances of people building this validating/empowering identity for themselves in the face of being a "loser" (in career, dating, health, w/e). Should that identity be successfully challenged*, one falls apart or doubles down hard. *for instance, "I'm only single/unemployed/whatever because of my unique spiritual ideas". Expose that individual to people with similar spiritual beliefs who are successful and happily married, their entire identity is challenged. Fwiw, ignoring all the external/societal/economic issues (and solutions we likely won't apply) and focusing on individuals, I think more young people should be exposed to philosophy. Not to simply latch onto one ideology or another, but to learn to think about how they think. And since some this post is obviously coming from personal experience (as a "promising" young man turned anarchist laborer), I think experiences with psychedelics and disassociatives combined with some exposure to philosophical thought can produce a feelings of "oneness with all" and a healtbh perspective on one's individual human experience. "I've got AP tripping today can't be late!"
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Feb 4, 2023 14:54
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BRJurgis posted:Fwiw, ignoring all the external/societal/economic issues (and solutions we likely won't apply) and focusing on individuals, I think more young people should be exposed to philosophy. Not to simply latch onto one ideology or another, but to learn to think about how they think. It's finally time for Neon Genesis Evangelion to be required viewing
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Feb 4, 2023 14:59
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