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Sir Lemming posted:At some point the 24 show runners definitely realized they'd stumbled into problematic stuff and they made an effort to fix it, but there was only so much you could do without throwing out the whole format, really. It necessitated oversimplification. Like at least people were more frequently like "wtf Jack stop torturing people" and they realized he was past the point of deserving a happy ending. And I think once he like, got blessed by an imam or something? And you have to give it up for Gregory Itzin. He was brilliant.
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Feb 4, 2023 00:03
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Macdeo Lurjtux posted:I remember a general mood 'We're kind of lovely for just assuming it was Muslims' after the Oklahoma City bombing. I kind of miss those days. When did muslim terrorists become acceptable villains? Eighties villains were drug dealers and communists and by 1994 True Lies the villains are part of the "Crimson Jihad". Did Gulf War cause this?
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Feb 4, 2023 11:18
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Fish of hemp posted:When did muslim terrorists become acceptable villains? Eighties villains were drug dealers and communists and by 1994 True Lies the villains are part of the "Crimson Jihad". Did Gulf War cause this? Probably a combination of the Lockerbie bombing, Gulf War, and the WTC bomb.
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Feb 4, 2023 11:34
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Thank you for linking that Jon Bois video because that reminded me of the existence of 'The Dumbest Boy Alive' and now my day is joyful. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eECjjLNAOd4 e: Fish of hemp posted:When did muslim terrorists become acceptable villains? Eighties villains were drug dealers and communists and by 1994 True Lies the villains are part of the "Crimson Jihad". Did Gulf War cause this? In Back to the Future, Doc Brown is dealing with Libyan terrorists. That was 1985.
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Feb 4, 2023 11:37
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I think it's more that Islamic terrorists went from being a stock villain for modern day stories, to the stock villain. Partly as a result of various racist and bigoted elements that need no explanation and barely need mention, and partly I suspect due to the fact a lot of the other stock villains were no longer applicable. The Cold War was over so the Russians were out, and while generic - generally black or latino - street thugs were still a classic go-to, they obviously only work for smaller scale stories. The scary Muslim terrorist can plausibly threaten an entire city or nation with some grand nefarious scheme, but really outside of the most ridiculous of movies - or beat-em-up games - you're not generally going to get stories where street gangs are a city or nation level threat. Spike the scary urban punk isn't going to be a plausible villain for a plot involving a nuclear bomb or a plane hijacking, generally speaking. Ahmed the scary Muslim terrorist is.
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Feb 4, 2023 11:48
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If Latinos want better representation onscreen they should release a bio-weapon.
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Feb 4, 2023 11:58
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You had PMCs or disgruntled ex military folks of various nations as villains in a lot of 90s and 00s stuff as well. That feels like it's aged better than the alternatives mentioned.
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Feb 4, 2023 12:02
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Which was the Chuck Norris movie that was like "this is what Republicans actually believe" and had like 80s versions of jihadis, urban minority street gangs, Cuban communists, Soviets, and more all teaming up and launching an attack with D-Day style landing boats and poo poo. Invasion USA?
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Feb 4, 2023 12:04
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Sir Lemming posted:At some point the 24 show runners definitely realized they'd stumbled into problematic stuff and they made an effort to fix it, but there was only so much you could do without throwing out the whole format, really. It necessitated oversimplification. Like at least people were more frequently like "wtf Jack stop torturing people" and they realized he was past the point of deserving a happy ending. And I think once he like, got blessed by an imam or something? Being that guy but there was another season a few years later called "Live Another Day". I remember it being actually quite good but they actually brought back the Chinese diplomat character we were talking about earlier as a surprise antagonist. It was really cartoonish because it's like the guy was just taking it personal instead of investigating an attack on the Chinese consulate. There was also a revival series without Kiefer Sutherland and what was the loving point? Agreed with your analysis of the show because it started off as an action-thriller series with an old-school action badass and after 9/11 happened they had to address Islamic extremism (because it's about a literal anti-terrorism unit). So you have these two very opposing formats with social commentary and old-school action thriller trying to co-exist. It's hilariously ham-fisted and tonally all over the place with Keifer Sutherland really just being the thing holding it together.
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Feb 4, 2023 12:23
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HopperUK posted:Thank you for linking that Jon Bois video because that reminded me of the existence of 'The Dumbest Boy Alive' and now my day is joyful. Whenever Mario 64 speedrunners try to convince me that a half-button press is something that actually exists I think about this video.
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Feb 4, 2023 12:58
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Mister Kingdom posted:And you have to give it up for Gregory Itzin. He was brilliant. It's a really cool scene with great Army of Two vibes that i initially watched with my dad. I like how he aimed near the perimeter of the windshield instead of shooting directly in the center. There's some safety class for getting out of crashed vehicles I took when I started driving that emphasized you're never supposed to try and kick out the center like they do in movies.
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Feb 4, 2023 13:06
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Fish of hemp posted:When did muslim terrorists become acceptable villains? Eighties villains were drug dealers and communists and by 1994 True Lies the villains are part of the "Crimson Jihad". Did Gulf War cause this? This video isn’t in chronological order, but it does demonstrate how muslims as stock terrorist villains develop out of an older tradition of seeing arabs as generally threatening uncivilized raiders and ungrateful colonial subjects: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vC3hwKtv_OU As far as why win out as boogeymen in action movies after the fall of the soviet union, it was them or renegade former soviet generals leading breakaway eastern bloc rogue states, and arabs were easier for people to understand. The end of history era only had room in its imagination for barbarians trying to halt the eternal growth liberalized markets, so them seeming really foreign and being outside the borders of civilization was a plus. Every once in a while you’d have an actual American who couldn’t get over the end of the cold war, but Americans don’t like that as much.
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Feb 4, 2023 13:15
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Never forget that an actual USA Supreme Court Justice defended torture by referencing Jack Bauer.
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Feb 4, 2023 13:37
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exquisite tea posted:Whenever Mario 64 speedrunners try to convince me that a half-button press is something that actually exists I think about this video.
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Feb 4, 2023 14:19
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You’ll change your tune once you face Bowser’s Evil Test.
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Feb 4, 2023 14:36
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RoboChrist 9000 posted:Which was the Chuck Norris movie that was like "this is what Republicans actually believe" and had like 80s versions of jihadis, urban minority street gangs, Cuban communists, Soviets, and more all teaming up and launching an attack with D-Day style landing boats and poo poo. Invasion USA? Yeah, that's invasion USA. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgbPUHfBJA0&t=2906s The D-day landings in Florida is at 48:26 if the time in the clip is off.
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Feb 4, 2023 14:50
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Mister Kingdom posted:I started watching the 70s Britcom Robin's Nest and there's been a few casually racist remarks in just the first four episodes. Throwaway lines, but still. Megillah Gorilla posted:Well if it's racism you're looking for, British shows from the 70s are the loving motherlode. Megillah Gorilla posted:Now do "Love Thy Neighbour" There was actually a sequel series to Love Thy Neighbour in 1980 which was set in Australia, with Eddie emigrating to Australia and continuing his hilarious racist ways in suburban Sydney, except this time he didn't have a West Indian neighbour to bounce off so he just wandered around being racist at random people. It was execrable. It also co-starred Robert Hughes who Australians will be familiar with as the dad from the beloved late 80s-early 90s sitcom Hey Dad! who was later revealed to be a serial child molester (it turned out that the cops had been trying to bust him since at least 1985) and he was finally arrested in 2012, sentenced in 2014 and paroled and deported last year. Snackmar posted:I remember when I first learned about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_and_White_Minstrel_Show and how it was on the BBC for twenty years.. I thought "that can't possibly be real" and holy poo poo I was wrong mind the walrus posted:Holy gently caress this is bad. After the TV show ended the troupe kept touring theatres and doing live shows until 1989 Minstrel shows were also pretty popular in Australia and blackface performances continued for a LONG time. Popular 70s/80s/90s TV variety show Hey Hey It's Saturday used to have the occasional blackface act in their 'Red Faces' amateur talent show segment and when they tried to revive the show in 2009 they brought that back too which did NOT go over well https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEtjaZ8ZuNU
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Feb 4, 2023 15:46
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 "Develop respect for Harry Connick Jr for being a class act in handling racist dipshits with disapproval" was not on my bingo card for this morning.
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Feb 4, 2023 15:57
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And the poo poo he got in the Aussie press for it was even more shameful than the blackface.
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Feb 4, 2023 16:06
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Snowglobe of Doom posted:There was actually a sequel series to Love Thy Neighbour in 1980 which was set in Australia, with Eddie emigrating to Australia and continuing his hilarious racist ways in suburban Sydney, except this time he didn't have a West Indian neighbour to bounce off so he just wandered around being racist at random people. It was execrable. I remember Tony Martin was going to do a segment on it for Get This but there wasn't a single moment from the show he could put to air.
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Feb 4, 2023 16:07
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Megillah Gorilla posted:And the poo poo he got in the Aussie press for it was even more shameful than the blackface.
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Feb 4, 2023 16:10
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credburn posted:It is a perfect encapsulation of the times. It aged badly, but is so well preserved. It's like a thirty year-old hamburger that looks like it was just cooked; you don't want to eat it, but you can't help but appreciate it. My mom loves shows that I call cop porn. poo poo like BlueBloods and Law and Order, shows where cops are always right even when they beat suspects. Screaming you don't need a lawyer while threatening to kill suspects. She recently started watching the first season of NYPD Blue. And more than once had to stop it, and I heard her muttering how any cop who acted like this should have been fired and probably in jail. Maybe it's because Sipowitz isn't a super hunky cop.
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Feb 4, 2023 16:12
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Cowslips Warren posted:My mom loves shows that I call cop porn. quote:She recently started watching the first season of NYPD Blue. And more than once had to stop it, and I heard her muttering how any cop who acted like this should have been fired and probably in jail. 
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Feb 4, 2023 16:19
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Snowglobe of Doom posted:Minstrel shows were also pretty popular in Australia and blackface performances continued for a LONG time. Popular 70s/80s/90s TV variety show Hey Hey It's Saturday used to have the occasional blackface act in their 'Red Faces' amateur talent show segment and when they tried to revive the show in 2009 they brought that back too which did NOT go over well holy poo poo
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Feb 4, 2023 16:20
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hawowanlawow posted:holy poo poo That is pretty insane
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Feb 4, 2023 16:35
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Megillah Gorilla posted:I remember Tony Martin was going to do a segment on it for Get This but there wasn't a single moment from the show he could put to air. It's all on Youtube if you wanna watch it! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0g_y7q9AprI
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Feb 4, 2023 16:37
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mind the walrus posted:Also called "copaganda" which are shows designed to normalize ridiculous societal conceptions of cops as existing outside the bounds of normal legal procedure and essentially acting as The Avengers keeping order in a world of bottomless chaos. This. It's PR for cops. They're all good people trying to do the right thing, but those darn technicalities stop them from bringing down all of the super mega criminals that run rampant and that's why it's not only ok, but cool and good and right, to break a suspect's arm while denying him a lawyer.
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Feb 4, 2023 17:41
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the_steve posted:This. It's PR for cops. They're all good people trying to do the right thing, but those darn technicalities stop them from bringing down all of the super mega criminals that run rampant and that's why it's not only ok, but cool and good and right, to break a suspect's arm while denying him a lawyer. There was a good episode of the podcast Citations Needed that covered this type of show.
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Feb 4, 2023 17:48
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the_steve posted:This. It's PR for cops. They're all good people trying to do the right thing, but those darn technicalities stop them from bringing down all of the super mega criminals that run rampant and that's why it's not only ok, but cool and good and right, to break a suspect's arm while denying him a lawyer. Last Week Tonight did an episode about it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNy6F7ZwX8I
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Feb 4, 2023 17:49
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the_steve posted:This. It's PR for cops. They're all good people trying to do the right thing, but those darn technicalities stop them from bringing down all of the super mega criminals that run rampant and that's why it's not only ok, but cool and good and right, to break a suspect's arm while denying him a lawyer. At least old L&O would often take a jab at landlords.
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Feb 4, 2023 18:22
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Absurd Alhazred posted:At least old L&O would often take a jab at landlords. Yeah the original L&O, even the reboot from the past couple years, is far less copaganda than SVU. Nothing like Blue Bloods, for sure.
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Feb 4, 2023 20:04
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Copagandra aside, how is Blue Bloods?
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Feb 4, 2023 20:38
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Coproganda
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Feb 4, 2023 21:11
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I like how cop shows have Internal Affairs show up and they’re super evil, scummy and unnecessary. Sorry for expecting the police to have some level of standards enforced; I guess? SVU knowingly skirt the rules constantly and are shocked that they’re scrutinised. Even Brooklyn 99 does this! And that’s barely a cop show! Some weeks they don’t even have a crime.
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Feb 4, 2023 21:37
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Yet in real life I would imagine the police investigators are very helpful in covering up the police’s crimes—one of the more useful aspects of tv’s propaganda function, probably. That dynamic has a long history. I remember an episode of GI Joe where a professional negotiator and diplomat, hopelessly naive, foolishly attempted to negotiate with Cobra. The GI Joe guys tried to warn her that Cobra could never be trusted and deserved only the final solution of total extermination, but they were so good that they rescued her in the end even though she was a total bitch to them earlier in the episode.
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Feb 4, 2023 21:44
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There also seems to be a new brand of copaganda emerging that basically does the same thing from the opposite direction: All cops are shown as 100% conscientious, flawlessly dotting every i and crossing every t and doing everything exactly by the book all the time. Rather than excusing unethical behaviour by cops, these shows instead just pretend it simply doesn't happen. Any misbehaviour is quickly shown to be just the work of individual bad actors who are then quickly set right or expelled entirely. No systemic problems to see here, just Good Cops solving crimes and catching killers. Brooklyn 99 had a bit of that, but I also noticed it in The Rookie a whole lot.
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Feb 4, 2023 22:08
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Peralta is depicted as pretty bad at paperwork and process unless pushed. I’d assumed everyone else looked the other way because he’s so gifted/fortunate at solving actual crimes.
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Feb 4, 2023 22:14
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A cop show where the cops actually do their jobs well and get rid of dangerous idiot cops sounds like a good cop show. Idealistic, competent cops that root out police corruption are universes better than shows that glorify dangerous idiot cops who are allowed to get away with whatever they want.
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Feb 4, 2023 22:21
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oldpainless posted:Copagandra aside, how is Blue Bloods? Schubalts posted:A cop show where the cops actually do their jobs well and get rid of dangerous idiot cops sounds like a good cop show. Idealistic, competent cops that root out police corruption are universes better than shows that glorify dangerous idiot cops who are allowed to get away with whatever they want. Marvel has gone far out of its way to make sure that the official brand line is that The Punisher franchise hates appropriation of the logo by fascists and that the police specifically should not look to him as any sort of model. And it has zero effect because fascists see coercive force in spite of protest as a noble end unto itself. Some people are just broken like that.
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Feb 4, 2023 22:35
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I discovered a podcast recently that could be of interest to this thread. It's called Unclear and Present Danger with Jamelle Bouie and John Ganz and they mostly cover post-Cold War political and military thrillers. There are a lot of running themes involving America's place in the world etc. but they also talk about the topic earlier in this page concerning who the new baddies could be
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Feb 4, 2023 23:33
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