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kingturnip posted:Yeah, but if Labour talk about any of those things, people might develop an expectation that Labour will do anything to address those issues. See everyone who interpreted their "free public money for green** energy startups" as being a plan for a nationalised energy supplier.
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Feb 4, 2023 17:16
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Mega Comrade posted:If by peace you mean surrender of at least a quarter of its territory and the dismantling of its democratically elected government and replacement of a Russian approved one. Then sure, 'peace'. My expectation is that the war will end with those territories under Russian control anyway, lots more Ukranians dead in the meantime and the current government continuing its policies of restricting political and trade union freedoms as well as oppressing anyone wanting to speak Russian or be Russian Orthodox for the places it does control as it continues its sell off industry to the West and pay off war debt at the cost of any sort of state provision so yeah the war continuing is a vast attack on the Ukranian working class and a quick peace would have been better. The main enemy of the working class is at home is a very important principle to bear in mind. It applies to us, to Ukraine and to Russia.
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Feb 4, 2023 17:21
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Do you not expect that Russia if successful would likely launch another war and annex more territory, and pillage the country for its own gain?
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Feb 4, 2023 17:25
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OwlFancier posted:Do you not expect that Russia if successful would likely launch another war and annex more territory, and pillage the country for its own gain? Seems a lot less likely now given what this one has cost them
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Feb 4, 2023 17:26
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Tarnop posted:Seems a lot less likely now given what this one has cost them Well yes, I mean in the hypothetical alternate reality where Ukraine agrees to their demands without fighting, or with limited resistance.
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Feb 4, 2023 17:29
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Lot of people in here would make good teachers, you've really got the hang of punishing the bully and their victim equally for fighting + you've mastered falling for the old "sir I didn't take it, that's my action man, he's lying" bit
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Feb 4, 2023 17:35
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OwlFancier posted:Well yes, I mean in the hypothetical alternate reality where Ukraine agrees to their demands without fighting, or with limited resistance. Yeah peace talks now is a completely different thing to peace talks a year ago. A year ago I'd put money on Putin agreeing then just turning around and invading again over some made up slight a year later. This is imperialism 101, as a nation we wrote the book on it.
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Feb 4, 2023 17:37
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You'd have lost that money on a technicality cause he's done it before and proven he can't wait even a few months
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Feb 4, 2023 17:40
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There are currently lots of people up and down the country striking for better conditions, after decades of asking nicely and getting gently caress all. So with that in mind I find myself rather skeptical of the idea of negotiations that are not done at metaphorical or literal gunpoint. Without the force to back up an "or else" it's not negotiation, it's begging.
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Feb 4, 2023 17:43
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Dabir posted:Lot of people in here would make good teachers, you've really got the hang of punishing the bully and their victim equally for fighting Sovereign states aren't people and using anthropomorphisms to make moral analogies will inevitably fail.
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Feb 4, 2023 17:45
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Freudian posted:Sovereign states aren't people and using anthropomorphisms to make moral analogies will inevitably fail. Feel free to engage your brain long enough to figure out where it breaks down, I'll wait
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Feb 4, 2023 17:47
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Peace was never an option a year ago and it's not one now, the mobile crematoria that the russians brought with them are not something you need for a three day conflict... they are for all that comes after.
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Feb 4, 2023 17:47
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Dabir posted:Feel free to engage your brain long enough to figure out where it breaks down, I'll wait It makes the assumption that both Ukraine and Russia are monolithic blocs that can be reduced to simple personas, "bully" and "victim", when obviously this isn't true and there are a variety of viewpoints and actors on both sides, like anti-war Russians and the various Nazis in the Ukrainian military. Life isn't a political cartoon, Russians aren't a single mass of Asiatic orcs, and Ukraine doesn't consist entirely of sad-eyed refugees or heroic defenders of liberty out of a WW2 propaganda poster. Nuance exists.
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Feb 4, 2023 17:52
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Probably the truth is somewhere in the middle. At Рахів.
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Feb 4, 2023 17:54
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Freudian posted:It makes the assumption that both Ukraine and Russia are monolithic blocs that can be reduced to simple personas, "bully" and "victim", when obviously this isn't true and there are a variety of viewpoints and actors on both sides, like anti-war Russians and the various Nazis in the Ukrainian military. Life isn't a political cartoon, Russians aren't a single mass of Asiatic orcs, and Ukraine doesn't consist entirely of sad-eyed refugees or heroic defenders of liberty out of a WW2 propaganda poster. Nuance exists. Yes but I’ve met very few Ukrainians who like the thought of rolling over and being conquered by the Russian state because Russia isn’t a monolith. Like everyone knows what you and namesake are saying, we just think it’s daft and you’d be openly laughed at by every Ukrainian I’ve ever spoke to about this (a lot). Like i hate the British state and all but if the EU became (more of) a kleptocratic, geopolitically aggressive body with strong views on LGBT people, people of colour and, well, most things that aren’t straight cis white fellas with big muscles, and then invaded the UK, I’d be joining up to defend us. Not because I think all Europeans are orcs or Britain is a nation of glorious heroes whose benevolent state needs defending, but because ultimately it’s still where I and most of the people I know live and I wouldn’t want them to get brutalised by an oppressive foreign regime. I don’t see why this is so hard to understand. In before ‘it’s already under a brutal regime’ yes I know that but as bad as the UK is the military isn’t regularly raping and torturing it’s way through Scunthorpe. Likewise the Ukrainian state, for all its flaws, is going to be much less unpleasant to live under for most Ukrainians than the Russian one. I don’t know, I just don’t see how people get by seeing everything through the lens of political theory. Sometimes it’s as simple as ‘oh poo poo there’s some people trying to invade and kill us, better stop them!’
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Feb 4, 2023 18:01
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I've just used my alternative universe machine to look up the exact effect that the various butterfly effects stemming from different uk leadership from 2019 would have on the russian invasion of ukraine, but i got distracted by the range of toppings available at the local nationalised sausage stand and forgot to check the news while I was there, sorry
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Feb 4, 2023 18:04
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Angepain posted:I've just used my alternative universe machine to look up the exact effect that the various butterfly effects stemming from different uk leadership from 2019 would have on the russian invasion of ukraine, but i got distracted by the range of toppings available at the local nationalised sausage stand and forgot to check the news while I was there, sorry They’ve put JAM on HOT DOGS????
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Feb 4, 2023 18:05
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Jakabite posted:Yes but I’ve met very few Ukrainians who like the thought of rolling over and being conquered by the Russian state because Russia isn’t a monolith. Like everyone knows what you and namesake are saying, we just think it’s daft and you’d be openly laughed at by every Ukrainian I’ve ever spoke to about this (a lot). Like i hate the British state and all but if the EU became (more of) a kleptocratic, geopolitically aggressive body with strong views on LGBT people, people of colour and, well, most things that aren’t straight cis white fellas with big muscles, and then invaded the UK, I’d be joining up to defend us. Not because I think all Europeans are orcs or Britain is a nation of glorious heroes whose benevolent state needs defending, but because ultimately it’s still where I and most of the people I know live and I wouldn’t want them to get brutalised by an oppressive foreign regime. I don’t see why this is so hard to understand. I didn't think I was arguing that Ukrainians are calling for peace with Russia, I thought I was saying that things are more complicated than reducing nation states to the kind of political cartoon world where organisations are represented by stereotyped people with helpful labels to tell you who's good and who's bad.
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Feb 4, 2023 18:06
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Freudian posted:I didn't think I was arguing that Ukrainians are calling for peace with Russia, I thought I was saying that things are more complicated than reducing nation states to the kind of political cartoon world where organisations are represented by stereotyped people with helpful labels to tell you who's good and who's bad. Apologies, this was a general reply to the ‘ending the war at any cost should be priority 1’ crowd
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Feb 4, 2023 18:33
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Jakabite posted:I don’t know, I just don’t see how people get by seeing everything through the lens of political theory. Sometimes it’s as simple as ‘oh poo poo there’s some people trying to invade and kill us, better stop them!’ War is inherently political though, so even if peoples thoughts don't operate on that level then the eventual result of their actions do and that makes it important to assess and argue not about their intentions (the Ukranian desire for self defence and self determination are GOOD intentions!) but what are the influential class forces in play and how are their relationships changing by the course of the war. Similarly the involvement of the UK state needs to be analysed at that level because apart from a few mercenaries and lunatics travelling over there to fight that's the only thing we can actually influence (aside from whatever organisational relationships you've developed with Ukranian or Russia society). Giving only enough armaments to keep the Ukrainian military fighting but not winning at the cost of turning Ukraine into the land of shell craters and minefields because it degrades Russian military strength is the absolute worst position and yet generally seems to be the approach taken by the NATO states and that should be criticised. If that means you think that more weaponry should be being sent then that's something to discuss but it's absolutely a political discussion. Jakabite posted:Apologies, this was a general reply to the ‘ending the war at any cost should be priority 1’ crowd My attitude is that I'll support whatever is best for the working class and towards the development of socialism but unfortunately the Russian and Ukranian working classes are not visibly building the sort of obvious working class political power separate from their capitalist states conducting the war and so all I see is both sides working classes suffering due to its continuation. The Russian military saying 'gently caress all of this' and/or the Russian working class saying 'Sod it, our government is terrible for starting this war' and overthrowing it would probably satisfy literally everyone itt.
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Feb 4, 2023 18:44
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The unfortunate reality is that Russia is a nuclear power, so their complete military defeat is not an option, and so the war is functionally an extended negotiation to see how little gain they can be conclusively persuaded to stop fighting at without going 'gently caress it, we're glassing Ukraine'. There's the additional factor that the situation within Ukraine is sufficiently chaotic, sufficiently filled with grifters and neo-Nazis, and sufficiently poorly-vetted (I mean, Christ, the official NATO Twitter account had to delete a pro-Ukrainian publicity photo with a Black Sun badge at least once), that there are very real threats to domestic and international stability in just pouring in weapons and training random dudes willy-nilly, just as there were during the Syrian Civil War, the occupations of Afghanistan and Iraq, and so on. Personally, I'm just mentally counting down until a Western country gets its first far-right terror attack by people who were armed and trained by the Azov Battalion - it seems like an inevitability at this point. All of the above means that even if you accept the entirely reasonable premise that Russia's war of aggression should be halted as a matter of urgency, there's a solid argument for focusing more on economic sanctions to cripple their military capacity (and economic aid/refugee support for Ukraine) rather than going balls-deep into a proxy war (especially since the former option also requires you to wean yourself off fossil fuels), and even the most hawkish folks realise that this whole mess will eventually end around the negotiating table.
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Feb 4, 2023 18:48
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DesperateDan posted:Cool car stuff Skoda?
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Feb 4, 2023 19:00
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Yeah, definitely can’t disagree with you that a revolution would be the best outcome here but unfortunately i’m doubtful! Given that I really do think that more support to Ukraine would be a good thing ultimately as it would help end the war quicker and with a more favourable outcome for Ukraine, including (particularly?) the Ukrainian working class.
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Feb 4, 2023 19:11
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With that in mind, corbyn's green investments and nationalized energy would probably make greater economic sanctions against russia practical and less painful to the UK, and I doubt he would object to using that tactic either.
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Feb 4, 2023 19:26
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Angepain posted:I've just used my alternative universe machine to look up the exact effect that the various butterfly effects stemming from different uk leadership from 2019 would have on the russian invasion of ukraine, but i got distracted by the range of toppings available at the local nationalised sausage stand and forgot to check the news while I was there, sorry Use your free internet to check, comrade
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Feb 4, 2023 20:09
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Corbyn would have said something inflammatory before 24 Feb 2022, revised hastily into something more ambiguous and not totally at odds with the party's own official position on NATO, and then backing down further in a few month's time after a media circus had already erupted - but only in a way with generates more headlines about him (this being, in the event, exactly what transpired with the Stop the War statement and then Corbyn's eventual 20 Apr Times Radio interview where he clarified that he actually meant "I don’t blame Nato for the fact that Russia has invaded Ukraine." and then immediately followed up with "I would want to see a world where we start to ultimately disband all military alliances" in the same interview) I don't think being Leader actually altered this style as an MP during his term in office, it's always worked great for him as a backbencher and it's back to working out great again In the meanwhile his long-suffering shadow cabinet (that thing you have when you're not a backbencher) would, in deference to the largely pro-
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Feb 4, 2023 20:14
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Someone with more patience than me, can you confirm ronya took this opportunity to reinforce their thesis that Corbyn, and everyone else ever, is a neoliberal?
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Feb 4, 2023 20:17
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forkboy84 posted:Someone with more patience than me, can you confirm ronya took this opportunity to reinforce their thesis that Corbyn, and everyone else ever, is a neoliberal? Something like that. I just skim his posts, but it hit all the predictable markers.
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Feb 4, 2023 20:21
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NotJustANumber99 posted:Skoda? yeah I got a kodiaq
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Feb 4, 2023 20:27
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Payndz posted:Be pure! Be vigilant! Behave! The thing about questions like this is they will never be asked by our press until its politically convenient to ask them. Peter Mandelson should be so toxic that being seen with him should invite scrutiny but there he is, chief advisor to Keir Starmer. https://twitter.com/classicide/status/1621902782746824704?s=19 Not British but lmao.
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Feb 4, 2023 20:28
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Darth Walrus posted:The unfortunate reality is that Russia is a nuclear power, so their complete military defeat is not an option, and so the war is functionally an extended negotiation to see how little gain they can be conclusively persuaded to stop fighting at without going 'gently caress it, we're glassing Ukraine'.... even the most hawkish folks realise that this whole mess will eventually end around the negotiating table. Yeah, it's this. Western countries are officially steadfastly insisting that Russia must be completely defeated in Ukraine but they don't actually mean it. If they genuinely saw this as a ww2 existential crisis against an implacable enemy, places like the UK would be introducing conscription, nationalising key industries and turning them over to military production, borrowing hugely to rapidly build up the armed forces, interning Russia citizens and sympathisers in prison camps etc etc. They're doing none of that and don't have the faintest intention of starting. What's happening instead is that enough money and equipment is being fed into Ukraine to keep the conflict simmering along but sufficient support to actually end it is firmly off the table. I've got very little doubt that the USA and Russia are already quietly discussing what requirements have to be met to bring the conflict to an end and meanwhile the killing continues. That's how I see the situation and why I think we should have immediate peace talks now rather than in a year's time, when nothing much has changed and a whole bunch more people are dead.
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Feb 4, 2023 20:39
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OwlFancier posted:With that in mind, corbyn's green investments and nationalized energy would probably make greater economic sanctions against russia practical and less painful to the UK, and I doubt he would object to using that tactic either. I'm pretty sure that's exactly the course of action he's been leaning towards vis-a-vis Russia in the past decade. It's also worth remembering that a lot of the more militarist Russian hawks have been openly attempting to deflect from their own corrupt business connections with Russia by extolling the virtues of BAE Systems as a peacekeeping tool.
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Feb 4, 2023 20:42
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the interesting question is rarely "do you want to talk" - even in war, feelers can be put out through non-official representatives - but "what are you ready to to give up"
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Feb 4, 2023 20:49
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ronya posted:the interesting question is rarely "do you want to talk" - even in war, feelers can be put out through non-official representatives - but "what are you ready to to give up" ronya I do appreciate your insights but I'm about to swirly u 4 this
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Feb 4, 2023 20:54
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Pistol_Pete posted:Yeah, it's this. Western countries are officially steadfastly insisting that Russia must be completely defeated in Ukraine but they don't actually mean it. If they genuinely saw this as a ww2 existential crisis against an implacable enemy, places like the UK would be introducing conscription, nationalising key industries and turning them over to military production, borrowing hugely to rapidly build up the armed forces, interning Russia citizens and sympathisers in prison camps etc etc. They're doing none of that and don't have the faintest intention of starting. Being fair, I find it difficult to imagine that if aliens invaded earth tomorrow that a lot of governments wouldn't immediately suggest handing them a PFI contract rather than attempting to turn the country into a state controlled military powerhouse.
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Feb 4, 2023 20:56
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DesperateDan posted:yeah I got a kodiaq Cool Skodas are cool.
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Feb 4, 2023 20:57
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Pistol_Pete posted:Yeah, it's this. Western countries are officially steadfastly insisting that Russia must be completely defeated in Ukraine but they don't actually mean it. If they genuinely saw this as a ww2 existential crisis against an implacable enemy, places like the UK would be introducing conscription, nationalising key industries and turning them over to military production, borrowing hugely to rapidly build up the armed forces, interning Russia citizens and sympathisers in prison camps etc etc. They're doing none of that and don't have the faintest intention of starting. The support that Ukraine has received from it's Allies has allowed it to inflict massive casualties on the Russian army, retake huge amounts of territory that Russia seized in early 2022 and prevent them from pushing Westwards after their initial botched attempts at going for places like Kyiev. Western nations have been very disjointed at times in their supply of equipment (see all the problems with artilary or tanks). but without it, Ukraine likely would have fallen by now. Ukraine's allies could be doing more, but there is also the notion that too much intervention too fast would allow Russia to try and escalate the war to essentially World War 3. It's highly unlikely, but at the end of the day Russia still has nukes. You can't poke it with sticks, you've got to go with the "frog in boiling water" approach. After all the Allies to Ukraine have been able to supply it with equipment now that if it had happened in early 2022 would have almost certainly been used as a red line issue by Russia.
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Feb 4, 2023 21:05
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I think you can certainly argue that Russia needs to be put under a certain amount of pressure in order for it to start taking negotiations seriously. The question is whether there are better, less dangerous ways to apply sufficiently meaningful pressure than 'gently caress it, let's give a bunch of neo-Nazis our most advanced weaponry and training, I'm sure this won't backfire like it did all the other times we tried this'.
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Feb 4, 2023 21:10
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https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/1621870594919743489?s=46&t=rmuZLs2Tg43d0v5oyb7sIw 'MUCH anticipated'.
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Feb 4, 2023 21:25
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Tesseraction posted:ronya I do appreciate your insights but I'm about to swirly u 4 this I remarked back in March that I'm not opposed in principle to the notion that political movements have a moral obligation to their people, in that Melian dialogue way, to surrender to a clearly superior power, but I rarely see speakers outside of the really hardcore pacifists consistently advocating that outlook
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Feb 4, 2023 21:28
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