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Just got to the second P4 dungeon and I can already tell that this will definitely be a wholesome time that treats the subject matter with the respect it deserves and will absolutely not be a horrible potpourri of all the lowest late-aughts "humor." I really like the Investigation Team so far. It's a neat twist on the dynamic that I'm the vulgar boy who wants to rush through things while Yosuke is the level head advising caution. I'm sure I'll discover why he sucks in time, but he has yet to rise above the baseline creep level that all Persona boys reach, and he's been cool outside of that so far. Chie is clearly the best egg, she's a simple girl who hasn't been a creep to anyone, and she's a kicker, but Yukiko is also adorable. Teddie, uh, I like Morgana more than most but I can't say the same for this guy, I really hope the better navigator shows up soon. The Dojima residence is still extremely uncomfortable; I unlocked the cop dad confidant where he tries to grill you on being clearly involved with the case and it's weird when the only link so far is that you hang out with Yukiko, when she is clearly an established part of your friend group before she was kidnapped. Nanako continues to be perfect and stands up for you, bless her. Also I get why they shouldn't involve the police, but I'm not sure I buy the narrative rationale. Sure it's supernatural, but you have access to the scene of the crime and nothing is stopping you from dragging cop dad into the TV and show them where Saki and the reporter were murdered.
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Feb 4, 2023 14:39
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:Just got to the second P4 dungeon and I can already tell that this will definitely be a wholesome time that treats the subject matter with the respect it deserves and will absolutely not be a horrible potpourri of all the lowest late-aughts "humor." The game is very much a product of its time to the detriment of some of the main characters. I want to say so much more, but they'd have to be in spoiler tags. I'm just interested to see how your opinion of characters changes after the next dungeon.
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Feb 4, 2023 16:28
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Ytlaya posted:Ah, I forgot about that! On the other hand, who do you trust to be allowed to unilaterally rewrite reality? Even the PT look at themselves in the mirror every so often and wonder if they should be doing what they do, and a change of heart is orders of magnitude more restricted. I think there's plenty of sense in drawing a line and saying this power is too dangerous to let someone have, no matter how well meaning they seem. Plus there's the whole "Hey didn't we explicitly try to slam the door shut on the otherworld entirely and cut everyone off from these powers?" bit. Allowing Maruki's powers to continue existing would in effect be walking back the whole confrontation with Yaldabaoth.
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Feb 4, 2023 16:50
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Warmachine posted:On the other hand, who do you trust to be allowed to unilaterally rewrite reality? Even the PT look at themselves in the mirror every so often and wonder if they should be doing what they do, and a change of heart is orders of magnitude more restricted. I think there's plenty of sense in drawing a line and saying this power is too dangerous to let someone have, no matter how well meaning they seem. No Wave fucked around with this message at 20:08 on Feb 4, 2023 |
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Feb 4, 2023 17:38
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I honestly wouldn't have liked to see that discussion, though I might be in the minority on that account. (also P5R) It's a real tightrope to walk the line between "people shouldn't suffer needlessly" and "free will is paramount" when you introduce literal godlike reality-altering powers into the mix. At that point the purely hypothetical answer is to use the power responsibly, and while how to go about that would obviously be the most important discussion in a scenario where that was feasible, it's not one I'd want to sit through in a video game, and I don't think the Phantom Thieves, comprising a gaggle of idiot teens with hearts of gold, one magic cat, and Futaba, are equipped to sift through all the ethical and philosophical pitfalls it introduces. Much better to skip ahead to "this power cannot be used responsibly," even with the metaphysical confirmation that Maruki's heart is hella distorted, and get right into the character reasoning, which is the strength of the story. I know Persona is a series that tries to tackle broad philosophical concepts and end with you killing them, but there's a reason people are always talking up Maruki and not Yaldabaoth, and it's not because his power is slightly cooler, it's because he's a person. Also obviously Akechi gets to be the focus. They pitted their most evil playable character against the least evil villain, and gave both of them entirely plausible and believable motivations and made the villain genuinely sympathetic while also having Akechi be right and Maruki be wrong. Nobody wanted P5R to have an Akechi redemption arc and they gave us one anyway and it was absolutely perfect. Who can fault them for flaunting it?
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Feb 4, 2023 18:51
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Cloacamazing! posted:If there is anybody who didn't at least fight to clear the November dungeon in a single day I do not want to meet this person. 
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Feb 4, 2023 19:17
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Cloacamazing! posted:The first dungeon is the hardest to clear in a single day, as you'll eventually get help with the main issue (SP). If there is anybody who didn't at least fight to clear the November dungeon in a single day I do not want to meet this person. Maybe P4 is so easy to ensure you can finish the dungeon as soon as possible because gamers would be like "oh no gently caress this poo poo" if they had to wait. I'm joking mostly but I have no doubt this would be the reaction of most players. My last run I tried to be as underleveled as possible and the boss was decently challenging, at least.
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Feb 4, 2023 19:55
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:Also obviously Akechi gets to be the focus. They pitted their most evil playable character against the least evil villain, and gave both of them entirely plausible and believable motivations and made the villain genuinely sympathetic while also having Akechi be right and Maruki be wrong. Nobody wanted P5R to have an Akechi redemption arc and they gave us one anyway and it was absolutely perfect. Who can fault them for flaunting it? Uhhhhh. Except the whole point is it ISN'T a redemption arc for Akechi. Just because he broken clocked his way to opposing the bigger threat, and he becomes a PC doesn't mean its a redemption. He's still a giant sociopath.
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Feb 4, 2023 20:00
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Yeah, exactly, which is why it works. They never pretend he can ever actually become a Pleasant Boy, but he gets to do a good thing of his own volition, and go out on his terms. Maybe you wouldn't call that a redemption, but I'd call it a redemption arc; it doesn't have to end in absolution in my book.
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Feb 4, 2023 20:11
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Thoughts about 3rd semester: I feel like yeah Maruki only knew about Joker and Akechi's rivalry as an outsider and technically he could've just mind-controlled both during Jan like the others but I feel like he wanted Joker to agree on his own that the ideal Fake reality was better because Akechi would exist. Well, Cognitive Akechi would still be a jerk but when we do take the offer I feel like Maruki just sees it fine that he waited long enough and that from that point on Akechi would lose the original personality and join everyone else as we see in the final ending summary. I feel like in the end even Joker is just reduced to being mind controlled too but with the player's consent which felt strange especially since the entire theme of rebellion and all.
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Feb 4, 2023 20:23
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Alder posted:I feel like in the end even Joker is just reduced to being mind controlled too but with the player's consent which felt strange especially since the entire theme of rebellion and all. Well, it is pretty much laid out that Maruki wanted Joker to choose the actualized reality because of how happy the other PTs were in it - basically to give up his heart of rebellion for his friends. Which is why the option to go for the 'bad' ending comes as early as Jan 9th.
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Feb 4, 2023 20:50
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anakha posted:Well, it is pretty much laid out that Maruki wanted Joker to choose the actualized reality because of how happy the other PTs were in it - basically to give up his heart of rebellion for his friends. Which is why the option to go for the 'bad' ending comes as early as Jan 9th. I completely missed this part since I wanted to spend the most time with Akechi and Maruki in Jan. drat, my cursed crushes on supervillains.
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Feb 4, 2023 21:19
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Alder posted:Thoughts about 3rd semester: Maruki's 'ideal world' scenario makes me think of the premise of the Caligula series.
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Feb 4, 2023 21:58
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Neeksy posted:Maruki's 'ideal world' scenario makes me think of the premise of the Caligula series. I'm not sure if Maruki's world would be improved or not by having him be a pop idol, but I'd be willing to give that a try. Can Akechi be Aria? "Are you ready? GO KILL!"
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Feb 4, 2023 22:26
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Cloacamazing! posted:I'm not sure if Maruki's world would be improved or not by having him be a pop idol, but I'd be willing to give that a try. Can Akechi be Aria?
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Feb 4, 2023 23:29
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Prowler posted:The game is very much a product of its time to the detriment of some of the main characters. I got past the second dungeon and, well, it exceeded my very low expectations. It's still not good, but there was barely any "no homo," and outside of Yosuke there was just one off comment by Chie that I am choosing to read as her discovering that gay people exist. I also appreciated Kanji acknowledging that roughneck aesthetic is a mask for his gentle and vulnerable nature, without any prompting. I have a feeling his journey of self-discovery is gonna be a running gag I'll hate, but so far Kanji is a sweetheart and it's only making me think less of the rest of the gang. At least the protagonist hasn't had to do a homophobia yet, which is the (low) bar I'm setting. Far more troubling is that Yukiko still seems to be the coolest, but I've noticed that she has the same VA as Ohya and I wish I hadn't. E: Also really not digging this whole overweight girl "gag" that for some reason has showed up multiple times. My estimation of Yosuke is rapidly declining. The girls being lethal cooks is also a trope I could do without, but I hate it less than the other things. Zulily Zoetrope fucked around with this message at 23:49 on Feb 4, 2023 |
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Feb 4, 2023 23:31
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Shyrka posted:P5R final boss spoilers. One thing I really love is how it works to sell Maruki as a cognitive psientist. He doesn't have a Morgana telling him all the lore, but by coming in with no preconceptions and working off just what he sees and hears he does wild stuff. His whole plan only worked because he was able to come up with it all from Joker telling him fairly basic stuff about Mementos. Then when you actually fight him he's like, "How did you call this power forth? 'Persona.'" because obviously he's seen them doing it a bunch in his palace. And when he's finally cornered he takes the, "I am Thou and Thou art I," concept to its logical conclusion and merges himself fully with Adam Kadmon. For all his lack of imagination when it comes to creating a perfect world, the cognitive world is a place where his creativity really shines. I imagine P6 won't involve the metaverse at all, since each game up until now has basically had a different "supernatural" element to it. Warmachine posted:On the other hand, who do you trust to be allowed to unilaterally rewrite reality? Even the PT look at themselves in the mirror every so often and wonder if they should be doing what they do, and a change of heart is orders of magnitude more restricted. I think there's plenty of sense in drawing a line and saying this power is too dangerous to let someone have, no matter how well meaning they seem. That's kind of my point - there are good arguments against the use of such power (like the fact that it can only really exist in the first place due to a powerful cognitive "distortion"), but the Phantom Thieves don't really make those arguments.
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Feb 4, 2023 23:55
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AlternateNu posted:Uhhhhh. Except the whole point is it ISN'T a redemption arc for Akechi. Just because he broken clocked his way to opposing the bigger threat, and he becomes a PC doesn't mean its a redemption. He's still a giant sociopath. I don't really interpret Akechi as a sociopath, because he's obviously unhappy with how things ended up. His whole final confrontation with Joker in Shido's Palace is him losing his poo poo as he realizes that he could have taken a different/better path. His "redemption" (though using the term pretty loosely) basically happens in Shido's Palace, rather than the third semester. He just has a personal belief that he should fully embrace the reality of what he did and strongly rejects the idea of receiving some sort of "forgiveness from above" for it (and he probably knows that Joker would absolutely forgive him in a heartbeat if he openly showed any regret, so he wants to discourage him from doing so). While we'll never really know, I doubt Akechi would have kept doing murders after the events in Shido's Palace (outside of maybe Shido himself or something).
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Feb 5, 2023 00:06
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If there's one thing I really would have liked to see in Royal, it'd be any interaction between Sumire and Akechi after the palace investigation. Just her expressing in no uncertain terms that Akechi saved her and she's grateful, and him having to deal with that. It would've been a nice character moment to wrap up the trio's dynamic, instead of it unceremoniously disappearing once the Phantom Thieves come back.
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Feb 5, 2023 00:23
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Also I've been wondering about a couple things in P4G based on the buzz I've picked up: Is there a deadline for the Aeon/Jester social links? Or a thing where I want to have one of them at rank 8 before November 19, as a random example? Can I end up locking myself out of future content? Like I don't need to be warned about instant game overs, but can I lock myself out of January if I miss something in December or the like?
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Feb 5, 2023 01:04
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:Also I've been wondering about a couple things in P4G based on the buzz I've picked up: Yes. You need Aeon at 10 before you beat the dungeon that has a deadline of December 24th, and you need Jester to be at level 6 before November 1st.
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Feb 5, 2023 01:11
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Perfect, thanks.
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Feb 5, 2023 01:16
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Any trick to quest 72 in P3P? Supposedly the treasure can only be found on floors 3 or 8 and I keep striking out on floor 3.
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Feb 5, 2023 01:52
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uuh is it just me or does pressing Z instantly exit/crash P5R
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Feb 5, 2023 04:29
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Man, those backgrounds in the new P3P remaster are really loving dire, aren't they? I thought that people might be exaggerating some, but they all look like the lowest effort AI upscaling imaginable. Still probably going to play it, though, since I'm pretty good at overlooking stuff like that and really want to play the FeMC stuff (since it has more new stuff in it than I originally thought).
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Feb 5, 2023 04:30
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Just  the PSP version, because the version they're now selling makes the audio even more compressed than the PSP one.
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Feb 5, 2023 05:48
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I'm gonna hope for Moguri-style mods for the Steam version to actually make it the best version of P3P.
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Feb 5, 2023 12:21
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I heard that Persona 4 has a missable Christmas Eve event for your love interest so I made sure to do the very final dungeon on 23/12, but apparently it's a Christmas Eve Eve event so whoops. I ain't doing all that again for a 2 minute scene, I'll just have to youtube it. And live without the item it gives but honestly nothing's displacing Nanako's paper armband.
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Feb 5, 2023 22:08
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I just got the paper armband and same. I just hit August and if anyone's still reading my updated character opinions: Yosuke hit rock bottom with the swimsuit incident and has remained the worst since then, though I will begrudge him a point for adopting Teddie. Also it's hilarious that Teddie's hot now, but dude needs to take a loving hint, still sucks. Chie's alright. I've gathered that Yukiko has issues of some sort, but so far she's been nothing but kind and supportive, and the occasional slap is actually treated as a flaw that she acknowledges. Plus her laughing fits remain cute. Rise also seems like a good kid; her constant flirting with the protagonist isn't great, but it upsets Yosuke so it's a net win, and she overwrote Teddie's "fight fight fight" voice clip so she's clearly a hero. Kanji remains the best. Somehow there has been no homophobia outside Yosuke and the one time Chie was surprised a boy could crush on a boy. It's a shame it's super obvious what's going on with that princely detective because I do not trust these guys to not take the worst lesson away from that.
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Feb 5, 2023 22:30
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:I just got the paper armband and same. I wound up dating Rise for the simple reason that it makes all her flirting fit in organically as just demonstrating the relationship exists outside of her solo scenes, but honestly Yukiko's my favourite character. She's just such a great understated comic relief vehicle without being as openly silly as Teddie, and morally she's rock solid. Kanji is also best boy and Yosuke sucks.
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Feb 5, 2023 22:40
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I have completed the December dungeon and similarly made the wrong estimation about the timing--whoops! It's nice to be ahead of the power curve for once. I also finally made all the s-links at the last minute by using a mechanic I largely ignored all game. Another whoopsie! And another with a special portrait I just forgot to talk to more than once.Zulily Zoetrope posted:Kanji remains the best. Somehow there has been no homophobia outside Yosuke and the one time Chie was surprised a boy could crush on a boy. It's a shame it's super obvious what's going on with that princely detective because I do not trust these guys to not take the worst lesson away from that.[/spoiler] Eh, on top of that, there's some dialogue you can encounter if you run into a dungeon with Yosuke and Kenji and/or Teddie swapped out of your party around that time. They sure don't like being alone with him! Kenji is definitely the best, though. I also really like Chie for similar reasons, and she also sees through Yosuke's bullshit which I adore.
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Feb 6, 2023 01:26
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No Wave posted:There were a lot of ways to frame what Maruki was doing as bad and there are countless very good reasons not to have one human in charge of reality. But P5R put so much emphasis on Akechi's questionable reasoning of "I won't accept any authority, even a wonderful benevolent authority". I felt bad about Maruki ending up as a taxi driver until I figured he probably mindwiped a lot of people at school so keeping him on as a councillor anywhere would be off. That final cutscene is just super bizarre. None of it makes any sense. And its Royal content so theres no excuse of saying it got made way earlier
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Feb 6, 2023 01:58
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So there's really no penalty aside from hearing your navigator suggest everyone is tired to just stay in Tartarus as long as you want, huh? It's interesting to not have to manage SP recovery really at all, since at most you lose a few floors' progress to go back out and heal up. Seems like healing should cost more to balance it out a bit.
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Feb 6, 2023 14:18
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HaB posted:So there's really no penalty aside from hearing your navigator suggest everyone is tired to just stay in Tartarus as long as you want, huh? It's a really weird change that I guess they hoped would be balanced by having to pay for healing, I guess?
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Feb 6, 2023 14:22
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You don't even actually lose progress; if you go to the stairs instead of the teleporter, you get the option of returning to the highest floor you reached. Or at least you can do that if you've reached a barrier, dunno if it works for all intermediate floors. Also your party does get tired eventually, but it only goes into effect after you leave, so it's nothing so long as you rest at least once between visits.
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Feb 6, 2023 14:42
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That’s a wrap on P3. I don’t think it’s necessarily better (or worse) than 4 as some people were saying, but it was drat good I can appreciate preferring it if you had played it before the later ones. I think I’ll always really like 4 because it was my first one and I loved everything about it. 5 really stepped up everything about the series though. Hell, they’re all drat fine RPGs. If there’s a 6 I’ll be on it day one. Best series I discovered after sleeping on in a long time.
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Feb 6, 2023 14:59
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I missed the armband, what does it do? I got her other gifts, though. Too bad other characters can't use them. So, I finally managed to beat the December dungeon and am now in (what I assume to be) the Golden content in January. End game Persona 4 spoilers (don't read, Zulily!): It's almost an unwritten rule that your great murder mystery villain must appear physically or mentally incapable of killing people. Bonus points if they're someone the party interacts with frequently, seems really friendly and appears to be helping in a way that would ncrease their chances of getting discovered while actually further muddying the waters. "The idiot we all discounted is actually the mastermind" such a cliché at this point, it is no wonder his identity comes as a shock to very few). As I noted earlier in the thread, I thought it was too obvious and started to doubt myself, which maybe makes it wrap back around into being genius? (No.) I went and checked to see what the Golden changes brought to Persona 4 after I beat the dungeon. So, he wasn't even an S-Link before? I would have been even more suspicious, lol. The only thing that caught me off guard was the killing of King Moron or whatever his name was. I was pretty sure he would be treated as a red herring suspect--I didn't expect him to get offed so relatively quickly in the story without some sort of misdirection of false accusation/arrest. Playing 4 and 5 back to back has really shown some of the writing strengths and weaknesses. 6 could really benefit from a new writing team to avoid hitting the same story beats and character archetypes, as well as eliminate all the stuff that feels like horny teenage boy wish fulfillment (and/or stuff that feels like it was written by a teenage boy).
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Feb 6, 2023 15:38
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Prowler posted:Playing 4 and 5 back to back has really shown some of the writing strengths and weaknesses. 6 could really benefit from a new writing team to avoid hitting the same story beats and character archetypes, as well as eliminate all the stuff that feels like horny teenage boy wish fulfillment (and/or stuff that feels like it was written by a teenage boy). I hope you're right but I have a feeling they'll be playing it relatively safe given P5's success.
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Feb 6, 2023 15:49
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Prowler posted:
I loved the addition of Adachi's social link to Golden, if only because the ending that can be unlocked by maxing it out is one of the bleakest loving things I've ever seen (and I mean that in the best way possible).
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Feb 6, 2023 15:57
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man nurse posted:That’s a wrap on P3. I don’t think it’s necessarily better (or worse) than 4 as some people were saying, but it was drat good I can appreciate preferring it if you had played it before the later ones. I think P3 really nails its themes particularly well, and really executes it's ideas without stumbling in the home stretch, that I remember at least. I feel like both P4 and P5 in their base incarnations at the very least both sort of stumble at the end by trying to push big last minute twists/reveals that didn't really feel necessary, whereas the whole nyx thing ties neatly into P3s story and I never feel like they had to make big jumps to make the story work But even though I've talked about how I wish they'd kept aspects of P3's social systems and stuff for the later games, I think as a game itself P3 is definitely the weakest of the 3 games. The sequels after it are just so much better in terms of gameplay (especially compared to P3FES where you couldn't direct control party members) and integration of everything/polish/social links/etc.. it's definitely a bit hard to go back to.
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Feb 6, 2023 16:00
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