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Darth Walrus posted:I think you can certainly argue that Russia needs to be put under a certain amount of pressure in order for it to start taking negotiations seriously. The question is whether there are better, less dangerous ways to apply sufficiently meaningful pressure than 'gently caress it, let's give a bunch of neo-Nazis our most advanced weaponry and training, I'm sure this won't backfire like it did all the other times we tried this'. Most of the people fighting in the war on the Ukrainian side are not neo-nazis, hth. I mean yes there was the (now-demolished) Azov battalion and I'm sure there are some other far-right assholes in the army as it in every army, but that's completely insignificant compared to the hundreds of thousands of ordinary Ukrainians fighting. I bet there are far more far-right nationalists on the Russian side, given the sort of people who are attracted to the conflict.
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Feb 4, 2023 22:07
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Probably fewer per capita now they've resorted to drafts, though.
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Feb 4, 2023 22:17
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well and the prisons
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Feb 4, 2023 22:18
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Darth Walrus posted:'gently caress it, let's give a bunch of neo-Nazis our most advanced weaponry and training, I'm sure this won't backfire like it did all the other times we tried this' Works fine for rural American police departments!
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Feb 4, 2023 22:27
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Darth Walrus posted:I think you can certainly argue that Russia needs to be put under a certain amount of pressure in order for it to start taking negotiations seriously. The question is whether there are better, less dangerous ways to apply sufficiently meaningful pressure than 'gently caress it, let's give a bunch of neo-Nazis our most advanced weaponry and training, I'm sure this won't backfire like it did all the other times we tried this'. Could we not conflate the general Ukrainian military force with neo-Nazis? There is that contingent and sadly some of their most elite troops are Nazis but there are a lot of decent people being supplied with weapons to defend their homes and they don’t deserve to be lumped in with Azov. Especially when Russia has far more Nazis.
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Feb 4, 2023 22:59
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Darth Walrus posted:I think you can certainly argue that Russia needs to be put under a certain amount of pressure in order for it to start taking negotiations seriously. The question is whether there are better, less dangerous ways to apply sufficiently meaningful pressure than 'gently caress it, let's give a bunch of neo-Nazis our most advanced weaponry and training, I'm sure this won't backfire like it did all the other times we tried this'. I mean if you're concerned about neo-Nazis getting advanced weapons groups like Wagner and Rusich are pretty openly filled with neo-Nazis and also deeply embedded in the Russian military which, you know, has quite a lot of advanced weapons. Arguably giving Ukraine weapons is going to end up with a net reduction in the number of neo-Nazis with access to advanced weapons.
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Feb 4, 2023 23:02
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I helped a Ukrainian lady move into a house in the village with her two little kids. She's like 30? Her husband who works with my neighbour in some tedious IT job isn't here because he's essentially conscripted into the Ukrainian military. She doesnt seem like the sort to marry a nazi.
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Feb 4, 2023 23:03
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https://twitter.com/SangitaMyska/status/1621982921086083076 And I Would Have Gotten Away With It Too, If It Weren't For You Meddling Left-Wing Economic Establishment.
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Feb 4, 2023 23:05
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Remarkably close to "reality has a left wing bias" there. The economy is too drat left wing and that's why my ideas about how it should work actually broke it.
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Feb 4, 2023 23:07
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OwlFancier posted:Remarkably close to "reality has a left wing bias" there. The economy is too drat left wing and that's why my ideas about how it should work actually broke it. 
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Feb 4, 2023 23:13
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Where the gently caress do you even start with “ I was brought down by the lefty financial sector” lmao
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Feb 4, 2023 23:18
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I mean that's true when you are convinced the world actually runs according to the von mises institute.
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Feb 4, 2023 23:20
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Feb 4, 2023 23:26
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Jakabite posted:Could we not conflate the general Ukrainian military force with neo-Nazis? There is that contingent and sadly some of their most elite troops are Nazis but there are a lot of decent people being supplied with weapons to defend their homes and they don’t deserve to be lumped in with Azov. Especially when Russia has far more Nazis. I'll stop conflating them when the people training and arming them enact a basic goddamned filtering process rather than using them for publicity and celebrating them as heroes. Until then, we're in the queue for the world's most predictable trained, organised upsurge of far-right violence in the next few years because the powers that be decided that a fascist invasion could be more effectively countered by arming more fash rather than weaning themselves off the fossil fuels (and money-laundering services) that are paying for it.
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Feb 4, 2023 23:31
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Man you're going to be shocked when you look at the British military
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Feb 4, 2023 23:36
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This post is for the brave boys of the mujahideen. Hope they enjoy the stinger missiles.
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Feb 4, 2023 23:40
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Rarity posted:Man you're going to be shocked when you look at the British military Pointing out that the British military is also stuffed with fash in order to defend capital isn't exactly an argument for more of the same.
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Feb 4, 2023 23:40
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Darth Walrus posted:Pointing out that the British military is also stuffed with fash in order to defend capital isn't exactly an argument for more of the same. But British military assistance is coming from existing British military stocks, which means less weapons for British fash. Seems like a win!
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Feb 4, 2023 23:44
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Pablo Bluth posted:https://twitter.com/SangitaMyska/status/1621982921086083076 This is so good. I can only dream of being as disconnected from reality as Liz Truss blaming the notoriously left-wing City spivs.
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Feb 4, 2023 23:47
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Reducing UK dependence on russian energy supplies is the sort of thing that would need to have been started years ago, not, I think, something that can be done in response to the invasion. Without the weapons there would not be much of a war to pull funding for.
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Feb 4, 2023 23:48
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OwlFancier posted:Reducing UK dependence on russian energy supplies is the sort of thing that would need to have been started years ago, not, I think, something that can be done in response to the invasion. Without the weapons there would not be much of a war to pull funding for. Maybe a decade or so ago https://twitter.com/mlanetrain/status/1556381583585804291?lang=en
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Feb 4, 2023 23:51
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It's one of many excellent arguments for starting it now, sure, but I don't think it's a good argument right now for not providing military support. And the military support might still be necessary even if we were in the alternate history timeline where the world had moved away from russian oil and gas, as I somehow doubt the people in charge would have just quietly collapsed. If anything, decline seems to make countries behave even more stupidly than normal.
OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 23:55 on Feb 4, 2023 |
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Feb 4, 2023 23:52
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OwlFancier posted:Reducing UK dependence on russian energy supplies is the sort of thing that would need to have been started years ago, not, I think, something that can be done in response to the invasion. Without the weapons there would not be much of a war to pull funding for. On the one hand, yes. On the other hand, it's not like we didn't have a couple of decades of warning that (a) spending money on fossil fuels was bad, and (b) giving fossil fuel to folks like Vladimir Putin and the Saudi royal family was even worse. I think that we can still slam the folks in charge for short-sighted greed here. That does remind me, though, of Yemen. I don't think there's any British political tendency of any significant size going 'arm the Houthis' at the moment, is there?
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Feb 4, 2023 23:53
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Darth Walrus posted:I'll stop conflating them when the people training and arming them enact a basic goddamned filtering process rather than using them for publicity and celebrating them as heroes. Until then, we're in the queue for the world's most predictable trained, organised upsurge of far-right violence in the next few years because the powers that be decided that a fascist invasion could be more effectively countered by arming more fash rather than weaning themselves off the fossil fuels (and money-laundering services) that are paying for it. lol your an idiot
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Feb 4, 2023 23:57
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We've never been dependent on Russian energy. But we can't insulate ourselves from global market turmoil because everyone else switching away from Russian oil and gas is pushing up demand on our suppliers.
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Feb 4, 2023 23:57
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I feel like the big issue with a lot of historical examples of arming people is that the people being armed at the moment are just the already existing ukrainian army and government, which already had quite a lot of weapons and soldiers beforehand, rather than being a small group of hyper religious fundamentalist lunatics. I think if there is going to be outbreaks of uncoordinated violence post-war it's probably going to have more to do with the chaos caused by the actual invasion than by the ukrainian army having more guns than normal.
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Feb 4, 2023 23:58
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NotJustANumber99 posted:lol your an idiot *you'd
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Feb 5, 2023 00:15
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OwlFancier posted:Being fair, I find it difficult to imagine that if aliens invaded earth tomorrow that a lot of governments wouldn't immediately suggest handing them a PFI contract rather than attempting to turn the country into a state controlled military powerhouse. "Oh, it's a cookbook? Cool. How many proles do you want per shipment and what are you offering in return?"
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Feb 5, 2023 00:27
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Trending in United Kingdom Liz Truss 21.4K Tweets Trending in United Kingdom ISIS 12K Tweets Playin' the old hits.
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Feb 5, 2023 00:50
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Runcible Cat posted:"Oh, it's a cookbook? Cool. How many proles do you want per shipment and what are you offering in return?" Ruthanna Emrys, who I must assume from the name is from the UK and no I will not look it up, is a bit fond of "benevolent advanced aliens who don't intersect very smoothly with the earth political situation" A Half Built Garden is a standalone where an alien federation arrives after we've gotten climate change under control at the last possible moment and want us to leave our planet and join their Dyson sphere, by force if necessary none of this is particularly a spoiler, it's in the first 20 pages
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Feb 5, 2023 01:31
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Google Jeb Bush posted:Ruthanna Emrys, who I must assume from the name is from the UK and no I will not look it up, is a bit fond of "benevolent advanced aliens who don't intersect very smoothly with the earth political situation" Attention all planets of the solar federation: we have assumed control, we have assumed control. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBivfBCPZow
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Feb 5, 2023 02:28
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Feb 5, 2023 02:31
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OwlFancier posted:I feel like the big issue with a lot of historical examples of arming people is that the people being armed at the moment are just the already existing ukrainian army and government, which already had quite a lot of weapons and soldiers beforehand, rather than being a small group of hyper religious fundamentalist lunatics. I suggest reading this 2021 Time Magazine expose. The transatlantic far right are 100% using the Ukraine war as a training camp, and at the heart of it are units that NATO and the Ukrainian government have been lionising as heroes. Darth Walrus fucked around with this message at 03:15 on Feb 5, 2023 |
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Feb 5, 2023 03:12
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Darth Walrus posted:I'll stop conflating them when the people training and arming them enact a basic goddamned filtering process rather than using them for publicity and celebrating them as heroes. Until then, we're in the queue for the world's most predictable trained, organised upsurge of far-right violence in the next few years because the powers that be decided that a fascist invasion could be more effectively countered by arming more fash rather than weaning themselves off the fossil fuels (and money-laundering services) that are paying for it. This is a total straw man. No one (we’ll probably someone but not many people) is (are) saying all glory to the Nazis. Again you’re conflating the Ukrainian military force, including until-recently civilians, with nazis. Yes we all know there’s a fash element, it sucks, and when they’ve been key players (Mariupol) there has been some uncomfortable veneration of their most prominent unit for their role. But you can absolutely gently caress off with this ‘arming Ukrainians = arming fash’ bullshit you absolute oval office.
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Feb 5, 2023 03:24
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Jakabite posted:This is a total straw man. No one (we’ll probably someone but not many people) is (are) saying all glory to the Nazis. Again you’re conflating the Ukrainian military force, including until-recently civilians, with nazis. Yes we all know there’s a fash element, it sucks, and when they’ve been key players (Mariupol) there has been some uncomfortable veneration of their most prominent unit for their role. Again, they're not putting any effort into making sure they're not arming Nazis, which has ended up giving Nazis free reign to set up a large and sophisticated international radicalisation, recruitment, and training pipeline with Ukraine as its heart and NATO providing free publicity and funding. Do I really need to spell out why this is a pretty goddamned serious problem, and why I might personally have an issue with people downplaying and minimising it?
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Feb 5, 2023 04:21
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The fact that both Truss and Johnson are visibly preparing comebacks tells you so much about the trajectory of Sunak's leadership lol.
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Feb 5, 2023 08:58
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Pistol_Pete posted:The fact that both Truss and Johnson are visibly preparing comebacks tells you so much about the trajectory of Sunak's leadership lol. And the number of amazing leader options the party has.
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Feb 5, 2023 09:34
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Pistol_Pete posted:The fact that both Truss and Johnson are visibly preparing comebacks tells you so much about the trajectory of Sunak's leadership lol. They just look down on him. No respect, these people.
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Feb 5, 2023 09:49
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Darth Walrus posted:Again, they're not putting any effort into making sure they're not arming Nazis, which has ended up giving Nazis free reign to set up a large and sophisticated international radicalisation, recruitment, and training pipeline with Ukraine as its heart and NATO providing free publicity and funding. Do I really need to spell out why this is a pretty goddamned serious problem, and why I might personally have an issue with people downplaying and minimising it? Do you have any idea how much you sound like a Putin shill right now? Even if everything you say is accurate, we are at worst arming and training one gang of fash to stop a larger gang of fash with nuclear weapons building an empire by conquest that will wind up on our own border. If Putin takes Ukraine he isn't even going to bother lying like Hitler did about the Sudetenland. He's going to continue with his long term plan of hoovering up all the other former Soviet republics that aren't already part of NATO. Unlike Ukraine these countries are too small to effectively resist with any Western help short of direct military intervention - and that means World War 3. As for Ukraine: what exactly do you think they're going to do with their newly trained army if they win? Invade Belarus? gently caress no. They'll be constantly preparing for the Russians to come back, but that's all they could do. They'll know that if they get belligerent the support they got as brave defenders will vanish in the first breeze, and it won't return when a bunch of Z-marked tanks trundle back into the Donbas.
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Feb 5, 2023 10:29
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https://twitter.com/MirrorGemma/status/1622020301235044356 Tories want slaves
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Feb 5, 2023 10:52
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